State first...Feds second...It's the law folks...

[SpidermanTuba]

There is only one Armed Force that is not subject to the Posse Comitatus act, and they distinguished themselves during the Katrina aftermath.

You are right, I was misinformed about the request from Bush and thought he was asking for the permission to send in troops as it considered doing...




You wanted to have the President to break the law because there was no legal controlling authority, but he chose to follow the law. Had he broken the law the Left's response would be to call for his head regardless of the outcome. The governor made the Federal response far more difficult as did the false reports of terrible crimes being committed in the Superdome and Convention center.

The governor wasn't the one who insisted FEMA busses be used in the evacuation and then didn't send them when they said they were going to send them. Read the full Advocate article. The governor was far from competent in the handling of this situation - don't get me wrong - but the attempt by the right to place the blame entirely on her is pure BS. FEMA was a major screw up, and the president fell far short of being pro-active. The head of FEMA was a Bush appointee - appointed because of who he knew - not because of his qualificiations. Bush is responsible for putting an idiot in charge of FEMA. FEMA continued to screw up during Rita, confusing Iberville and Iberia parishes, declaring Iberville a disaster area, which was hardly hit at all, and refusing to grant Iberia parish disaster status even after the Parish President had requested it.

And if you want to place blame on the Louisiana government recall that Blanco was elected in 2003 following 8 years of the Republican Mike Foster. In fact the head of the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security was appointed by Foster. The inefficiencies in our state government which resulted in utter catastrophe existed LONG before Blanco took over. She did no more - nor any less - than any one of our previous governors to fix the problem.

The President breaks the law all the time. He broke in in selecting Harriet Miers based on her religious beliefs - a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

 

[no1tovote4]

The governor wasn't the one who insisted FEMA busses be used in the evacuation and then didn't send them when they said they were going to send them. Read the full Advocate article. The governor was far from competent in the handling of this situation - don't get me wrong - but the attempt by the right to place the blame entirely on her is pure BS. FEMA was a major screw up, and the president fell far short of being pro-active. The head of FEMA was a Bush appointee - appointed because of who he knew - not because of his qualificiations. Bush is responsible for putting an idiot in charge of FEMA. FEMA continued to screw up during Rita, confusing Iberville and Iberia parishes, declaring Iberville a disaster area, which was hardly hit at all, and refusing to grant Iberia parish disaster status even after the Parish President had requested it.

Neither was Bush. I wasn't attempting to place the blame entirely on her.

The head of FEMA was up to the task in over 100 emergencies before this one, it wasn't entirely his fault either. It seems people expect FEMA to have people on hand to be responders, that isn't their job. FEMA kept people from entering because of the reports that rescuers were being shot at, rapes were happening as well as murder, etc. You do not send in volunteer firefighters into situations where they will be shot, it is against all procedures I have ever been a part of as a volunteer firefighter.

And if you want to place blame on the Louisiana government recall that Blanco was elected in 2003 following 8 years of the Republican Mike Foster. In fact the head of the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security was appointed by Foster. The inefficiencies in our state government which resulted in utter catastrophe existed LONG before Blanco took over. She did no more - nor any less - than any one of our previous governors to fix the problem.

That doesn't stop her from calling up all of the NG troops available and sending them in to do police work so that volunteer workers under FEMA could do their jobs.

The President breaks the law all the time. He broke in in selecting Harriet Miers based on her religious beliefs - a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

The belief that he selected her solely on religious beliefs is an opinion, not a fact of law. Had he gone into LA without documents it would be fact of law and not opinion. That you cannot see the difference says more of your ideological stance than it says that "the President breaks the law all the time".

I personally believe he selected Miers based on the fact he thought he wouldn't be able to get her in and the Left would be hard pressed to argue against the next highly qualified extreme conservative he put forward. I think it is posturing.

 

[Annie]

The governor wasn't the one who insisted FEMA busses be used in the evacuation and then didn't send them when they said they were going to send them. Read the full Advocate article. The governor was far from competent in the handling of this situation - don't get me wrong - but the attempt by the right to place the blame entirely on her is pure BS. FEMA was a major screw up, and the president fell far short of being pro-active. The head of FEMA was a Bush appointee - appointed because of who he knew - not because of his qualificiations. Bush is responsible for putting an idiot in charge of FEMA. FEMA continued to screw up during Rita, confusing Iberville and Iberia parishes, declaring Iberville a disaster area, which was hardly hit at all, and refusing to grant Iberia parish disaster status even after the Parish President had requested it.

And if you want to place blame on the Louisiana government recall that Blanco was elected in 2003 following 8 years of the Republican Mike Foster. In fact the head of the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security was appointed by Foster. The inefficiencies in our state government which resulted in utter catastrophe existed LONG before Blanco took over. She did no more - nor any less - than any one of our previous governors to fix the problem.

The President breaks the law all the time. He broke in in selecting Harriet Miers based on her religious beliefs - a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

You were the one that was grateful that I understood the difference between plans and implementation. Who drew up the plans? (Those that were supposed to, LA government employees.) Who was to implement all phases of? (Same) Who fled NO, for higher ground in Baton Rouge? (Same again). Who decided to have the poor, elderly, and those that look after them go to 'refuge of last resort?' (Same) Who chose to keep food and water out of those locales, actually ordering water and food to not be delivered, to discourage further populating these refuges of last resort? (Same) Yet you wish to blame the Fed? :fu2:

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Neither was Bush. I wasn't attempting to place the blame entirely on her.

The head of FEMA was up to the task in over 100 emergencies before this one, it wasn't entirely his fault either. It seems people expect FEMA to have people on hand to be responders, that isn't their job.

FEMA told us they were sending 500 busses and that we shouldn't use our own busses because they weren't friggen air conditioned. Then the busses didn't show up when they said they would.

FEMA actually made a doctor quit performing CPR at New Orleans International because he hadn't been certified by them. He was the ONLY doctor there at the time and had credentials to prove he was a doctor.

I can't believe you would defend FEMA's utterly incompetent response.

The belief that he selected her solely on religious beliefs is an opinion, not a fact of law.

Its a violation of the Civil Rights Act to base your selection of an employee on religion AT ALL. It doesn't have to be the SOLE factor - if its ANY FACTOR AT ALL you've broken the law.

"PRESIDENT BUSH: People ask me why I picked Harriet Miers. They want to know Harriet Miers' background; they want to know as much as they possibly can before they form opinions. And part of Harriet Miers' life is her religion. Part of it has to do with the fact that she was a pioneer woman and a trailblazer in the law in Texas. I remind people that Harriet Miers is one of the--has been rated consistently one of the top 50 women lawyers in the United States. She's eminently qualified for the job. And she has got a judicial philosophy that I appreciate; otherwise I wouldn't have named her to the bench, which is--or nominated her to the bench--which is that she will not legislate from the bench, but strictly interpret the Constitution."


So either he is in violation of the Civil Rights Act for using her religious practices as ONE of his criteria for her selection - or he is LYING in the above statement. Which is it?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

You were the one that was grateful that I understood the difference between plans and implementation. Who drew up the plans? (Those that were supposed to, LA government employees.) Who was to implement all phases of? (Same) Who fled NO, for higher ground in Baton Rouge? (Same again). Who decided to have the poor, elderly, and those that look after them go to 'refuge of last resort?' (Same) Who chose to keep food and water out of those locales, actually ordering water and food to not be delivered, to discourage further populating these refuges of last resort? (Same) Yet you wish to blame the Fed? :fu2:

Is it conceivable at all in your mind, that there actually might be more than one level of government that is to blame? Or is it always either COMPLETELY the state's fault or COMPLETELY the Fed's fault? When FEMA says "Hey - don't use your busses, we're sending our own" and then they don't send them - who's fault is that?

 

[Annie]

Is it conceivable at all in your mind, that there actually might be more than one level of government that is to blame? Or is it always either COMPLETELY the state's fault or COMPLETELY the Fed's fault? When FEMA says "Hey - don't use your busses, we're sending our own" and then they don't send them - who's fault is that?

Actually, it was possible, perhaps has been, but in this case the blame is at the local/state level. Has it occured to you that LA is perhaps close to the most corrupt state politically of any of the 50? N.O. perhaps the most corrupt city, as evidenced by the police department?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Actually, it was possible, perhaps has been, but in this case the blame is at the local/state level. Has it occured to you that LA is perhaps close to the most corrupt state politically of any of the 50? N.O. perhaps the most corrupt city, as evidenced by the police department?

So FEMA telling us it was sending busses that it wasn't - was our fault? FEMA confusing Iberville and Iberia Parishes - our fault? FEMA ordering doctors to stop saving people's lives - our fault? FEMA not even being aware that there were thousands of people in need of help at the Convention Center despite the fact it was plastered all over every major news station - our fault?

Even the President admits the federal government was partly to blame. Are you saying he is lying?


Where is your evidence that Louisiana is the most corrupt out of the 50 states?

 

[Annie]

So FEMA telling us it was sending busses that it wasn't - was our fault? FEMA confusing Iberville and Iberia Parishes - our fault? FEMA ordering doctors to stop saving people's lives - our fault? FEMA not even being aware that there were thousands of people in need of help at the Convention Center despite the fact it was plastered all over every major news station - our fault?

Even the President admits the federal government was partly to blame. Are you saying he is lying?


Where is your evidence that Louisiana is the most corrupt out of the 50 states?

You are truly duh! The buses, written into the plan were local livery and school buses. They were swamped, but never called upon. Check out the web, pics galore of the buses under water.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

You are truly duh! The buses, written into the plan were local livery and school buses. They were swamped, but never called upon. Check out the web, pics galore of the buses under water.

DUH I'm not talking about those busses DUH. I'm talking about the ones FEMA said they were sending after Katrina hit and how they told the state not to use our own school busses because they weren't airconditioned DUH.

Hours after the hurricane hit Aug. 29, the Federal Emergency Management Agency announced a plan to send 500 commercial buses into New Orleans to rescue thousands of people left stranded on highways, overpasses and in shelters, hospitals and homes.

On the day of the storm, or perhaps the day after, FEMA turned down the state's suggestion to use school buses because they are not air conditioned, Blanco said Friday in an interview.

Even after levees broke and residents were crowding the Louisiana Superdome, then-FEMA Director Mike Brown was bent on using his own buses to evacuate New Orleans, Blanco said.

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During the delay, misery and mayhem mounted in the Dome, thousands gathered in desperation at the nearby convention center, and Americans watched in shock as dead and dying New Orleans residents were broadcast on national television.

The state had sent 68 school buses into the city on Monday.

Blanco took over more buses from Louisiana school systems and sent them in on Wednesday, two days after the storm. She tapped the National Guard to drive them. Each time the buses emptied an area, more people would appear, she said.

The buses took 15,728 people to safety, a Blanco aide said. But the state's fleet of school buses wasn't enough. On Wednesday, with the FEMA buses still not in sight, Blanco called the White House to talk to Bush and ended up speaking to Chief of Staff Andy Card.

"I said, 'Even if we had 500 buses, they've underestimated the magnitude of this situation, and I think I need 5,000 buses, not 500,'" Blanco recounted.

"'But, Andy, those 500 are not here,'" the governor said.

Card promised to get Blanco more buses.

Later Wednesday night, Blanco walked into the State Police Communications Center and asked if anyone knew anything about the buses.

An officer told her the buses were just entering the state.

FULL TEXT HERE
http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml




But go ahead. Defend your beloved FEMA. I think you're the only person I've met who actually defends FEMA's actions.

 

[Annie]

DUH I'm not talking about those busses DUH. I'm talking about the ones FEMA said they were sending after Katrina hit and how they told the state not to use our own school busses because they weren't airconditioned DUH.






FULL TEXT HERE
http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml




But go ahead. Defend your beloved FEMA. I think you're the only person I've met who actually defends FEMA's actions.

I'll go on the assumption your site is correct, fair enough? So why didn't LA state or local activate the hundreds of buses at their control, prior to Katrina hitting?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I'll go on the assumption your site is correct, fair enough? So why didn't LA state or local activate the hundreds of buses at their control, prior to Katrina hitting?

There wasn't a plan to implement them in the ammount of time we had. You need drivers to run busses. There was no plan for mobilizing drivers. A major screw up.


That lack of an implementation plan is part of the reason I maintain all levels of government are to blame.

 

[Annie]

There wasn't a plan to implement them in the ammount of time we had. You need drivers to run busses. There was no plan for mobilizing drivers. A major screw up.


That lack of an implementation plan is part of the reason I maintain all levels of government are to blame.

3 days isn't enough time? Listen to yourself. IF the fed had ordered the state to for ac buses, when it was obvious to all that there were major problems looming, the governor should have made hay out of that, while ordering the drivers and buses under her control to pick the people up and get out of dodge.

Then you give anecdotal stories of doc. being told in midst to cease CPR. Give all of us a break. Do you really believe what you are writing?

 

[Gunny]

3 days isn't enough time? Listen to yourself. IF the fed had ordered the state to for ac buses, when it was obvious to all that there were major problems looming, the governor should have made hay out of that, while ordering the drivers and buses under her control to pick the people up and get out of dodge.

Then you give anecdotal stories of doc. being told in midst to cease CPR. Give all of us a break. Do you really believe what you are writing?

Scary, but I think he does.

 

[no1tovote4]

FEMA told us they were sending 500 busses and that we shouldn't use our own busses because they weren't friggen air conditioned. Then the busses didn't show up when they said they would.

FEMA actually made a doctor quit performing CPR at New Orleans International because he hadn't been certified by them. He was the ONLY doctor there at the time and had credentials to prove he was a doctor.

I can't believe you would defend FEMA's utterly incompetent response.

I haven't. I simply won't defend the governor who was clearly elected to office beyond her competency level. All I stated was there were hundreds of emergencies before that he was clearly ready for and were well run to put lie to the statement that he had no business at that time running FEMA. That he ran this one poorly is not in question. I too cannot believe that the buses were not staged nearby or that he would not use the school buses that were offered by the state. But I will fault her for making the federal response more difficult. Blame goes where it is due, I cannot believe that you would put all of the fault on an agency that has no resonders of their own rather than the people that did not implement the evacuation plan when it was called for, rather than the people that actually would not allow people in to certain places. You talk about one case with a doctor (anectodatal evidence), I talk about not allowing the FEMA certified responders into there at all (evidence directly from the General in charge). There were so many people who dropped the ball on this one, attempting to give this governor and the mayor a pass on responsibility is simply purposeful ideological blindness.

Its a violation of the Civil Rights Act to base your selection of an employee on religion AT ALL. It doesn't have to be the SOLE factor - if its ANY FACTOR AT ALL you've broken the law.

As I stated, it is opinion that any of the decision was applied in that direction. Only the explanation afterward was applied in that direction. It is only speculation on your part to say that this was used in the deciding of this selection.

"PRESIDENT BUSH: People ask me why I picked Harriet Miers. They want to know Harriet Miers' background; they want to know as much as they possibly can before they form opinions. And part of Harriet Miers' life is her religion. Part of it has to do with the fact that she was a pioneer woman and a trailblazer in the law in Texas. I remind people that Harriet Miers is one of the--has been rated consistently one of the top 50 women lawyers in the United States. She's eminently qualified for the job. And she has got a judicial philosophy that I appreciate; otherwise I wouldn't have named her to the bench, which is--or nominated her to the bench--which is that she will not legislate from the bench, but strictly interpret the Constitution."

The first bold tells you why he was speaking of her personally, the second bold tells you why he selected her. There is nothing there that says "I selected her because she is Christian" that is simply your own speculation and spin. That is a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact.

So either he is in violation of the Civil Rights Act for using her religious practices as ONE of his criteria for her selection - or he is LYING in the above statement. Which is it?

Neither. The statement answered two questions. The first, "people want to know as much about her as possible" the other, "is she qualified".

 

[no1tovote4]

There wasn't a plan to implement them in the ammount of time we had. You need drivers to run busses. There was no plan for mobilizing drivers. A major screw up.

Exactly who was gonna pull them over? They could have used anybody with a driver's licence and the willingness to help, or the police force. Also they were asked to evacuate long before the Mayor began the mandatory evacuation and when there were still many qualified bus drivers. He "took it under advisement" and never moved on it until it was too late. It was also consistent with the DVD he put out 8 weeks before outlining the fact that if an evacuation was ordered he would not implement the plan and those people were basically on their own.

That lack of an implementation plan is part of the reason I maintain all levels of government are to blame.

Exactly, all levels of government were to blame. We just don't agree on the amount of blame to be placed where. I believe that the local and state had more culpability than the feds for those that they left behind either purposefully or by simply never implementing the plans that they had written.

 

[Adam's Apple]

NG troops from other states were offered - and accepted - by the Governor.

Our governor called and offered to provide National Guard troops from our state, and he was put off by Gov. Blanco. Our Guard troops then went to MS where they were readily accepted. I remember reading an article somewhere during the Katrina aftermath that many state governors had offered Gov. Blanco National Guard units from their states and received the same kind of response our governor did.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

3 days isn't enough time?

No. It isn't. You can't throw together an implementation plan to evacuate 100000 people without cars in three days time. I think you are trivializing the issue. Such an implemenation plan would take months to work out. As well it should have been - should have been a clear implemenation plan, ready to go, one which dictated everything from who drives the busses, how they are called up, what routes the busses are run, how we ensure that everyone knows the busses are coming to get them and when, how we deal with security for the busses, where the busses go after leaving the city, fuel issues, etc. I think you are underestimating the ammount of planning that would need to go into it.

Listen to yourself. IF the fed had ordered the state to for ac buses, when it was obvious to all that there were major problems looming, the governor should have made hay out of that, while ordering the drivers and buses under her control to pick the people up and get out of dodge.

So now its the governor's fault for trusting that the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency actually knew HOW TO MANAGE EMERGENCIES?

Then you give anecdotal stories of doc. being told in midst to cease CPR. Give all of us a break. Do you really believe what you are writing?

[/QUOTE]


http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091605/new_doctorordered001.shtml

 

[no1tovote4]

"So now its the governor's fault for trusting that the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency actually knew HOW TO MANAGE EMERGENCIES?"

If her LA Dept of Homeland Security wasn't telling FEMA not to send in volunteers where they were needed the most visibly I might agree with you. The governor obstructed and then blamed.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I haven't. I simply won't defend the governor who was clearly elected to office beyond her competency level. All I stated was there were hundreds of emergencies before that he was clearly ready for and were well run to put lie to the statement that he had no business at that time running FEMA. That he ran this one poorly is not in question. I too cannot believe that the buses were not staged nearby or that he would not use the school buses that were offered by the state. But I will fault her for making the federal response more difficult. Blame goes where it is due, I cannot believe that you would put all of the fault on an agency that has no resonders of their own rather than the people that did not implement the evacuation plan when it was called for, rather than the people that actually would not allow people in to certain places. You talk about one case with a doctor (anectodatal evidence), I talk about not allowing the FEMA certified responders into there at all (evidence directly from the General in charge). There were so many people who dropped the ball on this one, attempting to give this governor and the mayor a pass on responsibility is simply purposeful ideological blindness.

A) You don't live in Louisiana - so your opinion of our governor doesn't even matter.

B) Can you read? I have stated multiple times that the governor drop the ball. Yet you continue as if I haven't.


Here's some anectodotal evidence. Myself and some friends drove two carloads of food into Bogalusa - a town north of NO on the MS border - right where they eye went through. It was the Saturday after the storm. We got there and asked the police where to drop off our donation. They said they weren't sure - because we were the first to show up with aid of any kind. No FEMA. No Red Cross. No National Guard. My point? The state and the feds screwed these people. I had been to Pearl River the night before - a town close to the Lake - there was a staging area full of FEMA trucks. The next day we went to Bogalusa again - the NG had finally shown up, I talked to one of them and he said they had been sitting at a staging area for three days prior doing nothing,. Who gets the blame? Everyone. State and federal. In this case the local officials were doing as much as they could - but they had NO GAS to run their police cruisers, or ambulances, no electricity at the hospitals (or ANYWHERE in town for that matter). And Wal Mart had closed there doors so even the people who weren't living paycheck to paycheck couldn't get food. (THough I have to say - I'm ambivalent about WalMart's response. Closing down their stores was a bad thing - but they did send in trucks full of supplies, 23 million dollars worth. They just didn't have anyone competent to tell them where it was needed)

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Exactly who was gonna pull them over? They could have used anybody with a driver's licence and the willingness to help, or the police force.
.

The police force? NOPD has 1400 officers. You would need 1000 busses at least. You've got to be kidding. Don't know what you mean by pulling them over. I never suggested anyone would get pulled over.


You are severly underestimating the planning that must go into an operation of this size. The implementation plan just wasn't there.


Name one instance in history where a local government successfully evacuated 100000 people with 3 days notice with the only beforehand agreed plan being "To utilize public transportation to evacuate those who do not have transportation of their own"