Start-Stop Technology

[BecauseIKnow]

Porsche has it in their sports cars. That's cool

Yeah -- because if you drive a Porsche --- you're already sending your mechanics' kids to college and you NEED to save 6% on gasoline..

Lol for a sports car you got to admit that's awesome.

 

[Politico]

My V8 will be running and everyone around me will know it.

 

[RGR]

My foremost concern is maintenance and wear/tear on the electrical system and the engine. There would have to be AMPLE evidence of MULTIPLE YEARS of worry-free driving before I'd ever even consider the benefits of this hare-brained concept.

Good for you. Making a decision only after millions of others have used it safely for a few tens of millions miles is a smart move. Certainly if you make the call after only a few millions of miles, there could still be quite a bit of risk involved.

As an engineer -- I'm also appalled by machinery that thinks it's smarter than me.

Well, as an engineer, I'll agree with you here. Software is the one which really chaps my lips.

So DRIVE ON --- and tell me 5 years from now how many SUPER-SIZED batteries, alternators, pumps, and regulators you've replaced.. And after a sample of MILLIONS of these experiences --- give me a call.

Hey, never said I have owned enough of them to be statistically significant, only that I have used them in 3 autos now, and certainly haven't ever been let down to the point where I would consider chucking the automobile out of mind numbing fear of the system. Certainly if I hear about grannys being regularly clobbered at intersections I might reconsider, but you don't hear that much. Hmmmm.

BTW --- if you're not this in -15deg weather at night with all the electrical running or driving thru a Las Vegas traffic jam in the hot summer --- you don't count as adequate testing..

Of course not...testing only in extreme conditions is all that matters because people only drive in extreme conditions...makes perfect sense....I think. But after nearly 100k miles on these types of systems, I think your fears are analagous to being hit by a meteor while walking through the parking lot on your way to your normal auto...certainly the possibility exists that you should fear such a thing...but in the real world (you know, 80F and sunny, 45F at night, we don't have to commute in Vegas or Fairbanks) it just doesn't seem like it matters much. But if cowering before the probabilities of the universe turns you on, I say go for it! Live in fear, run from auto start cars, and watch out for those meteors!

 

[flacaltenn]

My foremost concern is maintenance and wear/tear on the electrical system and the engine. There would have to be AMPLE evidence of MULTIPLE YEARS of worry-free driving before I'd ever even consider the benefits of this hare-brained concept.

Good for you. Making a decision only after millions of others have used it safely for a few tens of millions miles is a smart move. Certainly if you make the call after only a few millions of miles, there could still be quite a bit of risk involved.

As an engineer -- I'm also appalled by machinery that thinks it's smarter than me.

Well, as an engineer, I'll agree with you here. Software is the one which really chaps my lips.

So DRIVE ON --- and tell me 5 years from now how many SUPER-SIZED batteries, alternators, pumps, and regulators you've replaced.. And after a sample of MILLIONS of these experiences --- give me a call.

Hey, never said I have owned enough of them to be statistically significant, only that I have used them in 3 autos now, and certainly haven't ever been let down to the point where I would consider chucking the automobile out of mind numbing fear of the system. Certainly if I hear about grannys being regularly clobbered at intersections I might reconsider, but you don't hear that much. Hmmmm.

BTW --- if you're not this in -15deg weather at night with all the electrical running or driving thru a Las Vegas traffic jam in the hot summer --- you don't count as adequate testing..

Of course not...testing only in extreme conditions is all that matters because people only drive in extreme conditions...makes perfect sense....I think. But after nearly 100k miles on these types of systems, I think your fears are analagous to being hit by a meteor while walking through the parking lot on your way to your normal auto...certainly the possibility exists that you should fear such a thing...but in the real world (you know, 80F and sunny, 45F at night, we don't have to commute in Vegas or Fairbanks) it just doesn't seem like it matters much. But if cowering before the probabilities of the universe turns you on, I say go for it! Live in fear, run from auto start cars, and watch out for those meteors!

C'mon ---- you're a bored car saleman ---- RIGHT? Dad always told me to turn the air conditioner OFF -- even the radio OFF before I stopped the engine.. Was HE pulling my leg?

 

[RGR]

C'mon ---- you're a bored car saleman ---- RIGHT? Dad always told me to turn the air conditioner OFF -- even the radio OFF before I stopped the engine.. Was HE pulling my leg?

Not a clue. Radio on, A/C on, can't say I've ever seen anything break because of it. One of my cars has these seats which go into motion when you press the start button, it's the freakiest thing I've ever felt, if the wife has been driving you get this feeling the seat is going to crush you into the steering wheel.

But no, never sold cars for a living. I must admit I do enjoy buying them, trying out different ones, etc etc. Motorcycles and scooters too.

 

[Old Rocks]

My foremost concern is maintenance and wear/tear on the electrical system and the engine. There would have to be AMPLE evidence of MULTIPLE YEARS of worry-free driving before I'd ever even consider the benefits of this hare-brained concept.

Good for you. Making a decision only after millions of others have used it safely for a few tens of millions miles is a smart move. Certainly if you make the call after only a few millions of miles, there could still be quite a bit of risk involved.



Well, as an engineer, I'll agree with you here. Software is the one which really chaps my lips.



Hey, never said I have owned enough of them to be statistically significant, only that I have used them in 3 autos now, and certainly haven't ever been let down to the point where I would consider chucking the automobile out of mind numbing fear of the system. Certainly if I hear about grannys being regularly clobbered at intersections I might reconsider, but you don't hear that much. Hmmmm.

BTW --- if you're not this in -15deg weather at night with all the electrical running or driving thru a Las Vegas traffic jam in the hot summer --- you don't count as adequate testing..

Of course not...testing only in extreme conditions is all that matters because people only drive in extreme conditions...makes perfect sense....I think. But after nearly 100k miles on these types of systems, I think your fears are analagous to being hit by a meteor while walking through the parking lot on your way to your normal auto...certainly the possibility exists that you should fear such a thing...but in the real world (you know, 80F and sunny, 45F at night, we don't have to commute in Vegas or Fairbanks) it just doesn't seem like it matters much. But if cowering before the probabilities of the universe turns you on, I say go for it! Live in fear, run from auto start cars, and watch out for those meteors!

C'mon ---- you're a bored car saleman ---- RIGHT? Dad always told me to turn the air conditioner OFF -- even the radio OFF before I stopped the engine.. Was HE pulling my leg?

Yup. Haven't had a car in decades in which these things did not turn off when you turned the ignition off. The old ignition systems had a stop in the opposite direction from starting where you could run these systems with the engine off.
But you still turned them off with the action of turning off the engine.

Now I used to do all my own engine work, from tuning to rebuilds. However, with the advent of the computerized auto, I no longer do that. But I do not regret the change. Far more power for much less fuel. Engines that last 200,000 + miles.

Flatulance, it is interesting that you are an engineer and seem opposed to any new ideas.

 

[flacaltenn]

C'mon ---- you're a bored car saleman ---- RIGHT? Dad always told me to turn the air conditioner OFF -- even the radio OFF before I stopped the engine.. Was HE pulling my leg?

Not a clue. Radio on, A/C on, can't say I've ever seen anything break because of it. One of my cars has these seats which go into motion when you press the start button, it's the freakiest thing I've ever felt, if the wife has been driving you get this feeling the seat is going to crush you into the steering wheel.

But no, never sold cars for a living. I must admit I do enjoy buying them, trying out different ones, etc etc. Motorcycles and scooters too.

I thought I remember a few threads ago -- you said you drove an EV.. s/s tech in an EV is a given.. We're talking about a fire-breathing IC engine car --- yes? How many do you have?

 

[flacaltenn]

Good for you. Making a decision only after millions of others have used it safely for a few tens of millions miles is a smart move. Certainly if you make the call after only a few millions of miles, there could still be quite a bit of risk involved.



Well, as an engineer, I'll agree with you here. Software is the one which really chaps my lips.



Hey, never said I have owned enough of them to be statistically significant, only that I have used them in 3 autos now, and certainly haven't ever been let down to the point where I would consider chucking the automobile out of mind numbing fear of the system. Certainly if I hear about grannys being regularly clobbered at intersections I might reconsider, but you don't hear that much. Hmmmm.



Of course not...testing only in extreme conditions is all that matters because people only drive in extreme conditions...makes perfect sense....I think. But after nearly 100k miles on these types of systems, I think your fears are analagous to being hit by a meteor while walking through the parking lot on your way to your normal auto...certainly the possibility exists that you should fear such a thing...but in the real world (you know, 80F and sunny, 45F at night, we don't have to commute in Vegas or Fairbanks) it just doesn't seem like it matters much. But if cowering before the probabilities of the universe turns you on, I say go for it! Live in fear, run from auto start cars, and watch out for those meteors!

C'mon ---- you're a bored car saleman ---- RIGHT? Dad always told me to turn the air conditioner OFF -- even the radio OFF before I stopped the engine.. Was HE pulling my leg?

Yup. Haven't had a car in decades in which these things did not turn off when you turned the ignition off. The old ignition systems had a stop in the opposite direction from starting where you could run these systems with the engine off.
But you still turned them off with the action of turning off the engine.

Now I used to do all my own engine work, from tuning to rebuilds. However, with the advent of the computerized auto, I no longer do that. But I do not regret the change. Far more power for much less fuel. Engines that last 200,000 + miles.

Flatulance, it is interesting that you are an engineer and seem opposed to any new ideas.

I help my clients AVOID a dozen bad ideas a day.. That's what I get paid for and that's why I make the big bucks.. The art of engineering is to LOOK for ideas and weigh them against EVERY parameter --- til you have something that actually works under WORSE CASE conditions. Not just something that COULD work --- or work MOST of the time. Hence my obvious biases against wind and solar.

 

[RGR]

I thought I remember a few threads ago -- you said you drove an EV.. s/s tech in an EV is a given.. We're talking about a fire-breathing IC engine car --- yes? How many do you have?

Lets see, sure, I have a Volt. But that is a "free me from fossil fuels!" exercise in gizmology which I have been quite happy with to date. Then I have an econobox for long road trips (nearly 20K just since January, and another 4K coming up between now and October 1), and of course the Volt isn't very sporty in the wide tires, handles like a go-kart sense, so of course I have a sports car, and then no family would be complete without an SUV capable of hauling 7, towing 5 tons, 4x4 through the snow in the winter, etc etc.

and then there are the scooters and motorcycles and whatnot....

 

[RGR]

The art of engineering is to LOOK for ideas and weigh them against EVERY parameter --- til you have something that actually works under WORSE CASE conditions. Not just something that COULD work --- or work MOST of the time. Hence my obvious biases against wind and solar.

I like wind and solar. Both make pretty good fuel for my Volt, even when it isn't running in 115F Death Valley conditions, or trying to push up the Dalton in February.

 

[whitehall]

The left's natural tendency to assume human logic to lifeless computers will be the death of us all if we let them get away with it. Under the brave new world of left wing technology we will have our car computers reduce the rpm's in the system every time we touch the break pedal. Maybe it makes sense to the fools who make the rules who only deal with the real world when their chauffeur is stopped in city traffic but some of us have other driving situations to deal with. The computer has no way to know if it's a red light or a woodchuck in a rural road or a kid in a city street but it seems that the stupid knee-jerk libs go along with every numb nutz scheme without even thinking about it.

 

[martinjlm]

What is saved in gas will be negated by the expense of starter motor replacements.

Not necessarily. There are at least three non-hybrid start / stop system designs that I am aware of. All of them are centered around significantly more robust starter / generator hardware. In the validation of the system that I am most familiar with, the number of restarts the starter / generator is multiples of the number of starts required of a basic starter system.

Look at it this way.....Almost all new cars these days have engine warranties of about 5yrs or 50-100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Mileage of warranty varies from automaker to automaker. Even at 5/50, the warranty cost absorbed by the automaker would be astronomical if the system were not designed to be robust.

 

[flacaltenn]

What is saved in gas will be negated by the expense of starter motor replacements.

Not necessarily. There are at least three non-hybrid start / stop system designs that I am aware of. All of them are centered around significantly more robust starter / generator hardware. In the validation of the system that I am most familiar with, the number of restarts the starter / generator is multiples of the number of starts required of a basic starter system.

Look at it this way.....Almost all new cars these days have engine warranties of about 5yrs or 50-100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Mileage of warranty varies from automaker to automaker. Even at 5/50, the warranty cost absorbed by the automaker would be astronomical if the system were not designed to be robust.

Those warranties are probably not gonna cover BATTERIES which for the beef-ed up s/s designs you are talking about are VERY expensive. ONE extra battery replacement in those 5 years could pretty eat up most of your fuel savings.

 

[martinjlm]

What is saved in gas will be negated by the expense of starter motor replacements.

Not necessarily. There are at least three non-hybrid start / stop system designs that I am aware of. All of them are centered around significantly more robust starter / generator hardware. In the validation of the system that I am most familiar with, the number of restarts the starter / generator is multiples of the number of starts required of a basic starter system.

Look at it this way.....Almost all new cars these days have engine warranties of about 5yrs or 50-100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Mileage of warranty varies from automaker to automaker. Even at 5/50, the warranty cost absorbed by the automaker would be astronomical if the system were not designed to be robust.

Those warranties are probably not gonna cover BATTERIES which for the beef-ed up s/s designs you are talking about are VERY expensive. ONE extra battery replacement in those 5 years could pretty eat up most of your fuel savings.

I can't speak for which companies are stepping up to battery warranties. Those are usually separate, at least in the US. What I do know is every application I've seen have batteries specced specifically for the duty cycle. Believe it or not, auto companies do understand the concept of not pissing off the customer, especially over avoidable issues. Over taxing the stock battery is clearly an avoidable issue.

 

[Old Rocks]

What is saved in gas will be negated by the expense of starter motor replacements.

Not necessarily. There are at least three non-hybrid start / stop system designs that I am aware of. All of them are centered around significantly more robust starter / generator hardware. In the validation of the system that I am most familiar with, the number of restarts the starter / generator is multiples of the number of starts required of a basic starter system.

Look at it this way.....Almost all new cars these days have engine warranties of about 5yrs or 50-100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Mileage of warranty varies from automaker to automaker. Even at 5/50, the warranty cost absorbed by the automaker would be astronomical if the system were not designed to be robust.

Those warranties are probably not gonna cover BATTERIES which for the beef-ed up s/s designs you are talking about are VERY expensive. ONE extra battery replacement in those 5 years could pretty eat up most of your fuel savings.

Perhaps you could do a little research? Like linking to a warrenty statement concerning the batteries? How about past battery performance for cars like the Prius? Seems that there are a lot of them around with over 100,000 miles on them. Have they been replacing the batteries?

 

[flacaltenn]

Not necessarily. There are at least three non-hybrid start / stop system designs that I am aware of. All of them are centered around significantly more robust starter / generator hardware. In the validation of the system that I am most familiar with, the number of restarts the starter / generator is multiples of the number of starts required of a basic starter system.

Look at it this way.....Almost all new cars these days have engine warranties of about 5yrs or 50-100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Mileage of warranty varies from automaker to automaker. Even at 5/50, the warranty cost absorbed by the automaker would be astronomical if the system were not designed to be robust.

Those warranties are probably not gonna cover BATTERIES which for the beef-ed up s/s designs you are talking about are VERY expensive. ONE extra battery replacement in those 5 years could pretty eat up most of your fuel savings.

Perhaps you could do a little research? Like linking to a warrenty statement concerning the batteries? How about past battery performance for cars like the Prius? Seems that there are a lot of them around with over 100,000 miles on them. Have they been replacing the batteries?

Look -- you want to be guinea pig and save the world.. YOU go shopping for a warranty. What I KNOW is --- the batteries ARE a problem in these designs.. And you better find out how much MORE they cost.. The ones rated for Stop/Start currently are probably $350 or more...

The Shocking Truth About Start-Stop Systems | The Truth About Cars

Not having looked into the technology in any appreciable depth, Pacific Crest’s research was eye-opening. It turns out that the first generation of systems actually used variations of lead-acid battery technology known as “absorbed gas mat” (AGM) and “enhanced flooded batteries” rather than the newer NiMh or Li-ion chemistries. Though these technologies clearly offer advantages over standard lead-acid batteries (see comparison from Johnson Controls, above), they are still far from perfect. Pacific Crest’s research notes:

Gen1 AGM and enhanced flood batteries perform poorly, leaving future market share in doubt. The start-stop battery cranks the engine 10x more than a traditional battery, and the lead-acid chemistry is simply unsuited for this workload. Current AGM and EFBs degrade rapidly, with AGM batteries losing half of the charge acceptance within two weeks after first use (i.e., it loses half of its fuel-efficiency gains). They are not good at holding steady voltage during a stopping event (e.g., car stereos/windshield wipers may not work when the car engine turns off).

Yes, you just read that right: the current generation of stop-start systems lose half of their benefits after two weeks. Which means they’re great for juicing up scores on Europe’s urban-efficiency test, but they are as good as useless for the vast majority of the life of the vehicle (we already knew they were less-effective in cold weather). In an industry that typically validates equipment for hundreds of thousands of miles of useable life, this is nothing short of shocking. Especially when you jump ahead and find out the OEM response to these concerns

<<Snip>>

That’s right, the OEMs can “live with it.” Because they literally don’t have to live with it: consumers do. How this issue has not erupted into a semi-serious scandal in Europe is beyond us. After all, if this is accurate and verifiable, it means manufacturers are building cars that may not actually comply with emissions standards in the real world for most of their lives. Whether consumers will “live with this” is one question… whether governments will is a very different proposition. But, as the paragraph above implies, manufacturers aren’t likely to abandon advanced lead-acid designs for some time. Luckily, though, the next generation of AGM batteries should be much improved… and they had better be!

Though ultracapacitors sound sexy, if the next-generation of AGM batteries improve to the point where stop-start systems are offering full benefits for longer than two freaking weeks, then we say “bring ‘em on.” Meanwhile, every auto media outlet with stop-start-equipped long-term loaners (and possibly government emissions-control agencies) should be running regular tests to verify or disprove these troubling claims. A two-week lifespan for full-function on any automotive system is nothing short of misleading.