STAND YOUR GROUND, conflicts?

[Katzndogz]

Martin had already been suspended from school, he might have panicked thinking he would be in even more trouble if the police were called and thought he could fight his way out of what was becoming a bad situation.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Martin had already been suspended from school, he might have panicked thinking he would be in even more trouble if the police were called and thought he could fight his way out of what was becoming a bad situation.

That's possible, but then he could have called his father.

 

[Mr. Jones]

Trayvon ran away circled back an attacked Zimmerman clear cut case of Zimmerman defending himself.

I seemed to have missed this account, who says this? Zimmerman, or witnesses? If you could provide a link I'd appreciate it.

Here’s an estimate of Trayvon’s route back to Brandy Green’s townhouse with 911 call times included

Here’s an estimate of Zimmerman’s route to the main road with 911 call times included

A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
0:15 – The best address I can give you is the clubhouse. [A]
0:45 – He’s just staring at the houses. Now he’s staring at me.
1:00 – He’s coming towards me.
1:20 – He’s coming to check me out.
2:08 – Shit, he’s running.
2:14 – Sound of truck door being closed. [C]
2:20 – He’s heading towards the back entrance. [referring to E]
2:25 – Are you following him? Yep.
2:45 – He ran… Zimmerman stops and completes the 911 call. [E]
4:05 – Call ends.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgR7gCxXQYg&feature=player_embedded]ACTUAL UNCUT AUDIO!!! George Zimmerman's Trayvon Martin 911 - YouTube[/ame]
A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
If you have a brain you can figure it out.

Estimate....right...according to the audio..
The aggressor, George was told to NOT pursue the kid. George also stated that the kid ran away. At that time he should have waited for police to arrive, and NOT CONFRONT, nor INSTIGATE a CONFRONTATION.
No where on that audio is any evidence of the kid attacking, or being an aggressor to George.
It's bullshit, to try to flip the script on Trayvon.

Regardless, The guy with the gun was not covered by "Stand your ground", the guy who got SHOT was! Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. It was Trayvon who, aware he was being followed by a man without a badge or uniform, felt threatened and therefore was allowed to stand his ground. But Zimmerman, who associated himself with law enforcement, and having been ordered by the police to NOT follow Trayvon, was the aggressor. The real truth behind this tragedy is that if Trayvon had been armed, and Zimmerman had known there was a good chance Trayvon was armed, Zimmerman would have acted more cautiously and perhaps obeyed the order from the police to cease following Martin.

This is going to turn into another gun grab attempt, and another try to infringe on the 2nd Amendment, not to mention the inciting of more racial tension to further divide the populace.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop.

 

[saveliberty]

In the end, if Zimmerman tries to use this defense in a trial, or just gets a pass, and is never indicted, there is going to be a lot of interest in this law. And the injustice that it creates.

You are assuming it is an unjust law because you believe Zimmerman to be guilty. The fact is, he hasn't been charged... yet alone convicted.

It is not because of Zimmerman's guilt or innocence CG. It is because it doesn't appear to protect folks from possible vigilante justice. In this case, possilby both parties. A law that creates that much confusion should be reviewed and most likely modified. Other states contemplating such a law should wait and watch this case.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I seemed to have missed this account, who says this? Zimmerman, or witnesses? If you could provide a link I'd appreciate it.

Here’s an estimate of Trayvon’s route back to Brandy Green’s townhouse with 911 call times included

Here’s an estimate of Zimmerman’s route to the main road with 911 call times included

A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
0:15 – The best address I can give you is the clubhouse. [A]
0:45 – He’s just staring at the houses. Now he’s staring at me.
1:00 – He’s coming towards me.
1:20 – He’s coming to check me out.
2:08 – Shit, he’s running.
2:14 – Sound of truck door being closed. [C]
2:20 – He’s heading towards the back entrance. [referring to E]
2:25 – Are you following him? Yep.
2:45 – He ran… Zimmerman stops and completes the 911 call. [E]
4:05 – Call ends.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgR7gCxXQYg&feature=player_embedded]ACTUAL UNCUT AUDIO!!! George Zimmerman's Trayvon Martin 911 - YouTube[/ame]
A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
If you have a brain you can figure it out.

Estimate....right...according to the audio..
The aggressor, George was told to NOT pursue the kid. George also stated that the kid ran away. At that time he should have waited for police to arrive, and NOT CONFRONT, nor INSTIGATE a CONFRONTATION.
No where on that audio is any evidence of the kid attacking, or being an aggressor to George.
It's bullshit, to try to flip the script on Trayvon.

Regardless, The guy with the gun was not covered by "Stand your ground", the guy who got SHOT was! Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. It was Trayvon who, aware he was being followed by a man without a badge or uniform, felt threatened and therefore was allowed to stand his ground. But Zimmerman, who associated himself with law enforcement, and having been ordered by the police to NOT follow Trayvon, was the aggressor. The real truth behind this tragedy is that if Trayvon had been armed, and Zimmerman had known there was a good chance Trayvon was armed, Zimmerman would have acted more cautiously and perhaps obeyed the order from the police to cease following Martin.

This is going to turn into another gun grab attempt, and another try to infringe on the 2nd Amendment, not to mention the inciting of more racial tension to further divide the populace.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop.

The aggressor, George was told to NOT pursue the kid.George also stated that the kid ran away. At that time he should have waited for police to arrive, and NOT CONFRONT, nor INSTIGATE a CONFRONTATION.

He was told not to do it and he stopped DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

No where on that audio is any evidence of the kid attacking, or being an aggressor to George.

Use some common sense. He's that Trayvons that close to where he is staying and doesn't go there? Why didn't he do that?

It's bullshit, to try to flip the script on Trayvon

.
And that is bullshit to say it's not true.

No where on that audio is any evidence of the kid attacking, or being an aggressor to George.

Eyewitness statements

Regardless, The guy with the gun was not covered by "Stand your ground", the guy who got SHOT was! Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. It was Trayvon who, aware he was being followed by a man without a badge or uniform, felt threatened and therefore was allowed to stand his ground.

Wait a minute you just said it was reported Trayvon ran? If that were true stand your ground no longer applies with trayvon, he left the area he felt threaten in. He circled back and jumped Zimmerman.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop

I don't think Trayvon felt threaten because he never called the police or his father, he called his girlfriend in another city. It's quit possible that Trayvon was intending to attack Zimmerman.

 

[Mr. Jones]

Here’s an estimate of Trayvon’s route back to Brandy Green’s townhouse with 911 call times included

Here’s an estimate of Zimmerman’s route to the main road with 911 call times included

A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
0:15 – The best address I can give you is the clubhouse. [A]
0:45 – He’s just staring at the houses. Now he’s staring at me.
1:00 – He’s coming towards me.
1:20 – He’s coming to check me out.
2:08 – Shit, he’s running.
2:14 – Sound of truck door being closed. [C]
2:20 – He’s heading towards the back entrance. [referring to E]
2:25 – Are you following him? Yep.
2:45 – He ran… Zimmerman stops and completes the 911 call. [E]
4:05 – Call ends.

ACTUAL UNCUT AUDIO!!! George Zimmerman's Trayvon Martin 911 - YouTube
A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
If you have a brain you can figure it out.

Estimate....right...according to the audio..
The aggressor, George was told to NOT pursue the kid. George also stated that the kid ran away. At that time he should have waited for police to arrive, and NOT CONFRONT, nor INSTIGATE a CONFRONTATION.
No where on that audio is any evidence of the kid attacking, or being an aggressor to George.
It's bullshit, to try to flip the script on Trayvon.

Regardless, The guy with the gun was not covered by "Stand your ground", the guy who got SHOT was! Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. It was Trayvon who, aware he was being followed by a man without a badge or uniform, felt threatened and therefore was allowed to stand his ground. But Zimmerman, who associated himself with law enforcement, and having been ordered by the police to NOT follow Trayvon, was the aggressor. The real truth behind this tragedy is that if Trayvon had been armed, and Zimmerman had known there was a good chance Trayvon was armed, Zimmerman would have acted more cautiously and perhaps obeyed the order from the police to cease following Martin.

This is going to turn into another gun grab attempt, and another try to infringe on the 2nd Amendment, not to mention the inciting of more racial tension to further divide the populace.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop.

He was told not to do it and he stopped DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?


Use some common sense. He's that Trayvons that close to where he is staying and doesn't go there? Why didn't he do that?

.
And that is bullshit to say it's not true.


Eyewitness statements

Regardless, The guy with the gun was not covered by "Stand your ground", the guy who got SHOT was! Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. It was Trayvon who, aware he was being followed by a man without a badge or uniform, felt threatened and therefore was allowed to stand his ground.

Wait a minute you just said it was reported Trayvon ran? If that were true stand your ground no longer applies with trayvon, he left the area he felt threaten in. He circled back and jumped Zimmerman.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop

I don't think Trayvon felt threaten because he never called the police or his father, he called his girlfriend in another city. It's quit possible that Trayvon was intending to attack Zimmerman.

Since we're speculating here, it's also quite possible that Zimmerman got his ass kicked for harassing the kid, maybe flipped him the bird to taunt him..who knows?
Perhaps Trayvon did attack Zimmerman. What do we know for sure?
Facts from the 911 tapes.
Zimmerman admitted he was following Trayvon, and further knew that Trayvon had noticed him as he followed.
According to phone records,
Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend just minutes before he was shot.
It can also be speculated that if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman he did so because he felt threatened and felt he had to defend himself. Zimmerman followed, stalked and engaged Trayvon, that much is clear.
To say that Zimmermans actions were justifiable, is to say that it is legal in Florida to follow/stalk someone you don't like, possibly draw them into a confrontation and kill them.
Just as you speculate as being possible, that Trayvon was intending to attack Zimmerman, it's just as possible Trayvon thought the same of Zimmerman.
We wont know anything for sure until a proper investigation is done, and witnesses possibly polygraphed, for now, based on what has been said, Zimmerman looks to be in the wrong.

 

[Katzndogz]

In the end, if Zimmerman tries to use this defense in a trial, or just gets a pass, and is never indicted, there is going to be a lot of interest in this law. And the injustice that it creates.

You are assuming it is an unjust law because you believe Zimmerman to be guilty. The fact is, he hasn't been charged... yet alone convicted.

This is what I asked on the other thread ... does the law's protection move from one person to the next and back again, depending on who happens to have the upper hand at any given point in time?

I fear you're going to do me severe bodily harm or worse ... so I use force which causes you to fear I'm going to do you severe harm or worse ... so you use force which causes me to believe you're going to do me severe harm or worse ...


That's what's so crazy about this IMO.

It's quite possible for stand your ground protection to shift. If Trayvon Martin was entitled to be in fear of his life when Zimmerman was following him, that fear ended when Zimmerman walked away so that when he was attacked by Martin, it was Zimmerman entitled to stand your ground protection.

If you came home and found an armed man burglarizing your home you are entitled to stand your ground. If he doesn't see you, leaves, gets into his car and drives off and you follow him home intending to beat his head in with a tire iron can he then stand his ground and shoot you? Yes.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Judge is QUOTED as saying it was RAZOR-CLOSE; so from SYG to 2nd degree murder is a big leap.........................

Not really sure what you’re getting at here…

But the judge’s ruling in the Seay case would be reasonable and appropriate if he found the witness’ statement that the fight was over and the defendant used deadly force subsequent to that reasonable.

In the Zimmerman/Martin case, no similar evidence exists as sworn testimony, SYG compelled the Sanford police to release Zimmerman uncharged.

The decision is on appeal. My point was that in one case law enforcement decided, in the other it was brought before the Court.

Which is not uncommon given no two cases are exactly the same. It boils down to a judgement call by the police and prosecution, in good faith, based on their interpretation of a given law, to arrest or not, or to file charges or not.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Estimate....right...according to the audio..
The aggressor, George was told to NOT pursue the kid. George also stated that the kid ran away. At that time he should have waited for police to arrive, and NOT CONFRONT, nor INSTIGATE a CONFRONTATION.
No where on that audio is any evidence of the kid attacking, or being an aggressor to George.
It's bullshit, to try to flip the script on Trayvon.

Regardless, The guy with the gun was not covered by "Stand your ground", the guy who got SHOT was! Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. It was Trayvon who, aware he was being followed by a man without a badge or uniform, felt threatened and therefore was allowed to stand his ground. But Zimmerman, who associated himself with law enforcement, and having been ordered by the police to NOT follow Trayvon, was the aggressor. The real truth behind this tragedy is that if Trayvon had been armed, and Zimmerman had known there was a good chance Trayvon was armed, Zimmerman would have acted more cautiously and perhaps obeyed the order from the police to cease following Martin.

This is going to turn into another gun grab attempt, and another try to infringe on the 2nd Amendment, not to mention the inciting of more racial tension to further divide the populace.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop.

He was told not to do it and he stopped DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?


Use some common sense. He's that Trayvons that close to where he is staying and doesn't go there? Why didn't he do that?

.
And that is bullshit to say it's not true.


Eyewitness statements


Wait a minute you just said it was reported Trayvon ran? If that were true stand your ground no longer applies with trayvon, he left the area he felt threaten in. He circled back and jumped Zimmerman.

In hindsight my advice to kids, or anyone being followed like this kid was would be to call the police on your cell phone, take pics, and activate an audio recording.
For those responsible enough who can obtain a CC permit, do so and arm yourself for SELF DEFENSE..NOT to go out and look for trouble by playing wannabe cop

I don't think Trayvon felt threaten because he never called the police or his father, he called his girlfriend in another city. It's quit possible that Trayvon was intending to attack Zimmerman.

Since we're speculating here, it's also quite possible that Zimmerman got his ass kicked for harassing the kid, maybe flipped him the bird to taunt him..who knows?
Perhaps Trayvon did attack Zimmerman. What do we know for sure?
Facts from the 911 tapes.
Zimmerman admitted he was following Trayvon, and further knew that Trayvon had noticed him as he followed.
According to phone records,
Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend just minutes before he was shot.
It can also be speculated that if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman he did so because he felt threatened and felt he had to defend himself. Zimmerman followed, stalked and engaged Trayvon, that much is clear.
To say that Zimmermans actions were justifiable, is to say that it is legal in Florida to follow/stalk someone you don't like, possibly draw them into a confrontation and kill them.
Just as you speculate as being possible, that Trayvon was intending to attack Zimmerman, it's just as possible Trayvon thought the same of Zimmerman.
We wont know anything for sure until a proper investigation is done, and witnesses possibly polygraphed, for now, based on what has been said, Zimmerman looks to be in the wrong.

Since we're speculating here, it's also quite possible that Zimmerman got his ass kicked for harassing the kid, maybe flipped him the bird to taunt him..who knows?
Perhaps Trayvon did attack Zimmerman. What do we know for sure?
Facts from the 911 tapes.
Zimmerman admitted he was following Trayvon, and further knew that Trayvon had noticed him as he followed.

Why is it that members of the lynch mob state half truths?
Yes Zimmerman did follow Trayvon we all can agree to this but members of the lynch mob always leave out that other little piece of information. That Zimmerman when the dispatcher told him he did not need to follow Trayvon Zimmerman stopped. Why does the lynch mob leave this out?

Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend just minutes before he was shot.
It can also be speculated that if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman he did so because he felt threatened and felt he had to defend himself. Zimmerman followed, stalked and engaged Trayvon, that much is clear.

A defense lawyer would prove that Trayvon was not in fear for his life because if he was he would have called 911 or at least his father to say someone his following him. No what does he do calls his girlfriend that was in another town at the time. That makes tryavon look like he was ambushing Zimmerman.

To say that Zimmermans actions were justifiable, is to say that it is legal in Florida to follow/stalk someone you don't like, possibly draw them into a confrontation and kill them.
Just as you speculate as being possible, that Trayvon was intending to attack Zimmerman, it's just as possible Trayvon thought the same of Zimmerman.

Zimmerman was justified if Trayvon went for Zimmerman gun. No jury would convict Zimmerman if they went by the evidence and what the laws were at the time.

We wont know anything for sure until a proper investigation is done, and witnesses possibly polygraphed, for now, based on what has been said, Zimmerman looks to be in the wrong.

polygraph's are inadmissible in court Wood v. Bartholomew, 116 S. Ct. 7 (1995)