Stand and Deliver!

[IanC]

The movie was very powerful. Olmos's acting was superb. The message that minorities could succeed if only they had a mentor and tried hard was uplifting. And having white bad guys who couldn't believe they could do it so they were accused of cheating just made it a perfect fairytale of political correctness.

Is it just too good a story to tamper with, too inspirational to let go?

The real teacher was exceptional, and his story of real life battles with educational bureaucracy is extremely interesting but in the end depressing because he was shut out and defeated. The actor was so strongly typecast by the part that he, not the teacher, is called upon to speak at educational conferences.

But the reason I started this thread is to ask whether it is reasonable to continue painting the white-faced testing department as racist for accusing those fresh faced latino teens of cheating, of perhaps refusing to believe minorities were capable of achievement.

Because they did cheat, or didn't you know that? A biography was written about the teacher a few years ago and many of the students gave permission to the author to look at the exams, and even admitted to passing around a note for a certain question. The odd part was that the answer on the note was wrong and they would have passed, as later proved with a retest.

Interesting story indeed. But would it have touched such a social nerve without the background of racism given out in the media of the day and in the movie?

Stereotypes. I guess they can be wrong sometimes.

 

[Tank]

How Do I Reach These Kids? (Season 12, Episode 5) - Video Clips - South Park Studios

 

[Sallow]

I saw this a long time ago. Was a pretty good film. I liked American Me..a bit better.

 

[William Joyce]

People LOVE the notion that black/Hispanic kids are these geniuses just waiting to be sprung on the world, if it weren't for those racist white jerks holding them back with their prejudice.

Problem is, the raw material just isn't there. Blacks and Hispanics aren't as smart as white kids, and no amount of inspirational teachers, tax dollars or Hollywood movies will change that fact.

In California, Hispanics are now the majority in the school system. California is also in the shitter, economically and otherwise. Coincidence?

 

[Flagwavrusa]

The movie was very powerful. Olmos's acting was superb. The message that minorities could succeed if only they had a mentor and tried hard was uplifting. And having white bad guys who couldn't believe they could do it so they were accused of cheating just made it a perfect fairytale of political correctness.

Is it just too good a story to tamper with, too inspirational to let go?

The real teacher was exceptional, and his story of real life battles with educational bureaucracy is extremely interesting but in the end depressing because he was shut out and defeated. The actor was so strongly typecast by the part that he, not the teacher, is called upon to speak at educational conferences.

But the reason I started this thread is to ask whether it is reasonable to continue painting the white-faced testing department as racist for accusing those fresh faced latino teens of cheating, of perhaps refusing to believe minorities were capable of achievement.

Because they did cheat, or didn't you know that? A biography was written about the teacher a few years ago and many of the students gave permission to the author to look at the exams, and even admitted to passing around a note for a certain question. The odd part was that the answer on the note was wrong and they would have passed, as later proved with a retest.

Interesting story indeed. But would it have touched such a social nerve without the background of racism given out in the media of the day and in the movie?

Stereotypes. I guess they can be wrong sometimes.

I thought it was an inspiring story and a great movie, everybody loves to root for the underdog. Probably a large percentage of the people who went to see the movie were white, and I would venture to say all of them were sympathetic toward the hispanic kids. White people don't want blacks or hispanics to fail, they want them to be successful, pull their own weight, and make a contribution to society. Definately whites were mis-stereotyped in this movie.

 

[IanC]

People LOVE the notion that black/Hispanic kids are these geniuses just waiting to be sprung on the world, if it weren't for those racist white jerks holding them back with their prejudice.

Problem is, the raw material just isn't there. Blacks and Hispanics aren't as smart as white kids, and no amount of inspirational teachers, tax dollars or Hollywood movies will change that fact.

In California, Hispanics are now the majority in the school system. California is also in the shitter, economically and otherwise. Coincidence?

NAMs have raw material. not as much as whites or asians but there is still a lot there. one in six blacks is as smart as the average white.

inspirational teachers and local programs driven by a forceful administrator can make a huge impact by finding the involved students and parents. unfortunately this can't be scaled up because there aren't enough inspired teachers, forceful administrators, hardworking students or involved parents. of course the flip side how much improvement do you get when you put white children into intensive programs. a few years ago a school in Washington DC(?) drastically cut the classroom size. all the students enjoyed a jump in scores but the better students had huge increases while the lower scorers only had modest increases, so the racial gap increased. was this program a success because everyone improved or a failure because the racial gap increased?

I have to say that I am shocked at the transformation of California from a dream to a nightmare in only two generations.

 

[IanC]

The movie was very powerful. Olmos's acting was superb. The message that minorities could succeed if only they had a mentor and tried hard was uplifting. And having white bad guys who couldn't believe they could do it so they were accused of cheating just made it a perfect fairytale of political correctness.

Is it just too good a story to tamper with, too inspirational to let go?

The real teacher was exceptional, and his story of real life battles with educational bureaucracy is extremely interesting but in the end depressing because he was shut out and defeated. The actor was so strongly typecast by the part that he, not the teacher, is called upon to speak at educational conferences.

But the reason I started this thread is to ask whether it is reasonable to continue painting the white-faced testing department as racist for accusing those fresh faced latino teens of cheating, of perhaps refusing to believe minorities were capable of achievement.

Because they did cheat, or didn't you know that? A biography was written about the teacher a few years ago and many of the students gave permission to the author to look at the exams, and even admitted to passing around a note for a certain question. The odd part was that the answer on the note was wrong and they would have passed, as later proved with a retest.

Interesting story indeed. But would it have touched such a social nerve without the background of racism given out in the media of the day and in the movie?

Stereotypes. I guess they can be wrong sometimes.

I thought it was an inspiring story and a great movie, everybody loves to root for the underdog. Probably a large percentage of the people who went to see the movie were white, and I would venture to say all of them were sympathetic toward the hispanic kids. White people don't want blacks or hispanics to fail, they want them to be successful, pull their own weight, and make a contribution to society. Definately whites were mis-stereotyped in this movie.

I liked the movie at the time as well. a few years ago I watched it on TV and noticed the stilted interaction between the teacher and the testing board. I wondered why there hadn't been lawsuits involved. Now I know the reason. I wonder how many students are allowed to retake AP finals after they have been caught cheating? it really is interesting how minority student cheating turned into nasty white racism after the story was put through the Political Correctness black box transmogrifier.

 

[uptownlivin90]

People LOVE the notion that black/Hispanic kids are these geniuses just waiting to be sprung on the world

Just keep talking Willy.

 

[Mad Scientist]

People LOVE the notion that black/Hispanic kids are these geniuses just waiting to be sprung on the world, if it weren't for those racist white jerks holding them back with their prejudice.

Problem is, the raw material just isn't there. Blacks and Hispanics aren't as smart as white kids, and no amount of inspirational teachers, tax dollars or Hollywood movies will change that fact.

In California, Hispanics are now the majority in the school system. California is also in the shitter, economically and otherwise. Coincidence?

Asians don't need "inspirational teachers" to achieve because they have "inspirational parents and families".

 

[uptownlivin90]

People LOVE the notion that black/Hispanic kids are these geniuses just waiting to be sprung on the world, if it weren't for those racist white jerks holding them back with their prejudice.

Problem is, the raw material just isn't there. Blacks and Hispanics aren't as smart as white kids, and no amount of inspirational teachers, tax dollars or Hollywood movies will change that fact.

In California, Hispanics are now the majority in the school system. California is also in the shitter, economically and otherwise. Coincidence?

Asians don't need "inspirational teachers" to achieve because they have "inspirational parents and families".

That makes the difference with ALL racial groups. Period.

 

[IanC]

People LOVE the notion that black/Hispanic kids are these geniuses just waiting to be sprung on the world, if it weren't for those racist white jerks holding them back with their prejudice.

Problem is, the raw material just isn't there. Blacks and Hispanics aren't as smart as white kids, and no amount of inspirational teachers, tax dollars or Hollywood movies will change that fact.

In California, Hispanics are now the majority in the school system. California is also in the shitter, economically and otherwise. Coincidence?

Asians don't need "inspirational teachers" to achieve because they have "inspirational parents and families".

That makes the difference with ALL racial groups. Period.

alas, that is one of the measured behavioural differences between races. one of Ogbu's findings in his study of affluent Shaker Heights was that well-off black parents distrusted the public school system and yet were unwilling to take any responsibility for their children's education.

 

[uptownlivin90]

Asians don't need "inspirational teachers" to achieve because they have "inspirational parents and families".

That makes the difference with ALL racial groups. Period.

alas, that is one of the measured behavioural differences between races. one of Ogbu's findings in his study of affluent Shaker Heights was that well-off black parents distrusted the public school system and yet were unwilling to take any responsibility for their children's education.

I was raised by a poor single mother. She taught her kids how to read starting at 4 and 5 using the Bible. She checked our homework every night, got to know every teacher we had up until 9th grade. I got straight A's all through High School.

What does oogabooga say about that?

 

[IanC]

That makes the difference with ALL racial groups. Period.

alas, that is one of the measured behavioural differences between races. one of Ogbu's findings in his study of affluent Shaker Heights was that well-off black parents distrusted the public school system and yet were unwilling to take any responsibility for their children's education.

I was raised by a poor single mother. She taught her kids how to read starting at 4 and 5 using the Bible. She checked our homework every night, got to know every teacher we had up until 9th grade. I got straight A's all through High School.

What does oogabooga say about that?

that means you and your mother are statistical outliers. what would it mean if your mother tried to do those things and you dropped out in grade 9? what would it mean if your mother didn't do those things and you still ended up an A student? everyone's life is an anecdote, but if you put enough anecdotes together you get statistics which allow predictions to be made and causitive mechanics to be teased out. it is indeed unfortunate that your case is an outlier because if the common black example were the same as yours we wouldnt have to talk about black dysfunction and how to deal with it. but the normal black situation is not like yours, is it?

 

[IanC]

I was raised by a poor single mother.

I forgot to ask. Did your mother and you receive govt benefits while you were growing up? If yes, were you thankful for the predominantly white tax base that helped you out monetarily? Or the affirmative action laws that made it easier for you to get a college education and secure a job afterwards? or do you think it was scant recompense for what was done to 'your people'? just asking, 'cause it seems like most white people dont really mind helping out, it is the surly response to their charity that pisses them off.

 

[uptownlivin90]

I was raised by a poor single mother.

I forgot to ask. Did your mother and you receive govt benefits while you were growing up?

Not really. I received school lunch benefits but I never ate school lunch. She worked to jobs regularly, we were with the majority of Mississippians as the "working poor". TCA doesn't offer much to them. She was a part of your wonderful "tax base".

Or the affirmative action laws that made it easier for you to get a college education and secure a job afterwards?

I went into the USAF. Of course I don't get thanks from bastard racists like yourself for openly volunteering to protect your first amendment rights to be a racist bastard. Ungrateful pieces of shit.

As for AA, I've got a 16 year old brother who's already a star in high school football and get's straight A's. He'll never see a dime of Affirmative Action. Nice try though.

 

[IanC]

I was raised by a poor single mother.

I forgot to ask. Did your mother and you receive govt benefits while you were growing up?

Not really. I received school lunch benefits but I never ate school lunch. She worked to jobs regularly, we were with the majority of Mississippians as the "working poor". TCA doesn't offer much to them. She was a part of your wonderful "tax base".

Or the affirmative action laws that made it easier for you to get a college education and secure a job afterwards?

I went into the USAF. Of course I don't get thanks from bastard racists like yourself for openly volunteering to protect your first amendment rights to be a racist bastard. Ungrateful pieces of shit.

As for AA, I've got a 16 year old brother who's already a star in high school football and get's straight A's. He'll never see a dime of Affirmative Action. Nice try though.

sorry, but the working poor dont end up paying taxes, even if they are working (to) jobs. and minorities dont get to opt out of affirmative action, especially if they are in the military.

 

[uptownlivin90]

I forgot to ask. Did your mother and you receive govt benefits while you were growing up?

Not really. I received school lunch benefits but I never ate school lunch. She worked to jobs regularly, we were with the majority of Mississippians as the "working poor". TCA doesn't offer much to them. She was a part of your wonderful "tax base".

I went into the USAF. Of course I don't get thanks from bastard racists like yourself for openly volunteering to protect your first amendment rights to be a racist bastard. Ungrateful pieces of shit.

As for AA, I've got a 16 year old brother who's already a star in high school football and get's straight A's. He'll never see a dime of Affirmative Action. Nice try though.

sorry, but the working poor dont end up paying taxes, even if they are working (to) jobs. and minorities dont get to opt out of affirmative action, especially if they are in the military.

She paid income taxes like everyone else. For the most part during our lives she brought in anywhere from 32 to 45K a year. When we moved to the DC area it was more towards 50K.

As for affirmative action how so? I'm not aware that up to this point affirmative action has had anything to do with my being accepted into the USAF. Again i really just think you have a hard time believing African Americans can do anything. I took the ASVAB (on my own) and received a 71 the basic minimum score for the USAF is a 40 or a 50 I believe. Passed criminal background check with ease. I graduated from BMT with honors. Went on to tech school. Quotas never effected me from my knowledge I was always overqualified, I was taught to be overqualified from birth. my recruiter may have had a quota, not sure, my recruiter works in a majority African American area anyway. Being that I haven't served as a recruiter I wouldn't know what the quotas were where for recruiting.

My mother feared people like you tremendously, though, and told us constantly that we not only had to be as "good as the white kids" but we had to be "better". If "the white kids" learned how to read at 5 we had to learn at four. If "the white kids" knew how to add we had to add and multiply. If "the white kids" were learning history we had to know history and geography. Growing up around mostly black people I never knew what white kids she was talking about, but that's the thing she constantly had this fear of her kids growing up and being treated like welfare cases. I hear that that's common though within a lot of minority households. I know mine was like that.

I don't personally have the same fears, even though I've had to go threw my fair share of shit in my short life already with people assuming that because I'm black raised by a single mother I'm some sort of charity case and that I owe somebody something.

No I'm not grateful to "the white man" for getting straight A's.
No I'm not grateful to "the white man" that I got accepted in the USAF.

I'm also not mad at racists who may or may not hire me, that's your loss. My resume speaks for itself. My work speaks for me. Who i am overshadows my color. Yes my culture is an important part of my life. I'm the child of a mixed Native American and African American woman and of a Haitian father. Of that heritage I'm proud, but I am who I am and I am not simply "Haitian" or "black" or "Indian".

I also don't blame "the white man" for any personal struggles I have. I deal with them and live my life.

I grew up in Meridian, Mississippi. The only thing I got from white men as a child was dirty looks and the occasional head nod. Quite frankly, I've been called "******" on two or three occasions. I've been told by just about everyone in my life that I shouldn't succeed and that I should be a charity case, except for one person. That's the one who reared me to be better then every white person around me. I tend to try not to think like her and not to measure my success against people of other races. Reality is though it's still in the back of my mind, even at work in my various past jobs I always kept up with the work and was the hardest worker. I think in the back of my mind it was because of the stereotypes. Damn shame.

 

[IanC]

Not really. I received school lunch benefits but I never ate school lunch. She worked to jobs regularly, we were with the majority of Mississippians as the "working poor". TCA doesn't offer much to them. She was a part of your wonderful "tax base".



sorry, but the working poor dont end up paying taxes, even if they are working (to) jobs. and minorities dont get to opt out of affirmative action, especially if they are in the military.

She paid income taxes like everyone else. For the most part during our lives she brought in anywhere from 32 to 45K a year. When we moved to the DC area it was more towards 50K.

As for affirmative action how so? I'm not aware that up to this point affirmative action has had anything to do with my being accepted into the USAF. Again i really just think you have a hard time believing African Americans can do anything. I took the ASVAB (on my own) and received a 71 the basic minimum score for the USAF is a 40 or a 50 I believe. Passed criminal background check with ease. I graduated from BMT with honors. Went on to tech school. Quotas never effected me from my knowledge I was always overqualified, I was taught to be overqualified from birth. my recruiter may have had a quota, not sure, my recruiter works in a majority African American area anyway. Being that I haven't served as a recruiter I wouldn't know what the quotas were where for recruiting.

My mother feared people like you tremendously, though, and told us constantly that we not only had to be as "good as the white kids" but we had to be "better". If "the white kids" learned how to read at 5 we had to learn at four. If "the white kids" knew how to add we had to add and multiply. If "the white kids" were learning history we had to know history and geography. Growing up around mostly black people I never knew what white kids she was talking about, but that's the thing she constantly had this fear of her kids growing up and being treated like welfare cases. I hear that that's common though within a lot of minority households. I know mine was like that.

I don't personally have the same fears, even though I've had to go threw my fair share of shit in my short life already with people assuming that because I'm black raised by a single mother I'm some sort of charity case and that I owe somebody something.

No I'm not grateful to "the white man" for getting straight A's.
No I'm not grateful to "the white man" that I got accepted in the USAF.

I'm also not mad at racists who may or may not hire me, that's your loss. My resume speaks for itself. My work speaks for me. Who i am overshadows my color. Yes my culture is an important part of my life. I'm the child of a mixed Native American and African American woman and of a Haitian father. Of that heritage I'm proud, but I am who I am and I am not simply "Haitian" or "black" or "Indian".

I also don't blame "the white man" for any personal struggles I have. I deal with them and live my life.

I grew up in Meridian, Mississippi. The only thing I got from white men as a child was dirty looks and the occasional head nod. Quite frankly, I've been called "******" on two or three occasions. I've been told by just about everyone in my life that I shouldn't succeed and that I should be a charity case, except for one person. That's the one who reared me to be better then every white person around me. I tend to try not to think like her and not to measure my success against people of other races. Reality is though it's still in the back of my mind, even at work in my various past jobs I always kept up with the work and was the hardest worker. I think in the back of my mind it was because of the stereotypes. Damn shame.

whatever. its amazing how often blacks on message boards are upstanding and outstanding while the blacks you meet in real life are often very similar to what the statistics say they are like. I suppose there is a large restriction of range issue in effect.

 

[uptownlivin90]

She paid income taxes like everyone else. For the most part during our lives she brought in anywhere from 32 to 45K a year. When we moved to the DC area it was more towards 50K.

As for affirmative action how so? I'm not aware that up to this point affirmative action has had anything to do with my being accepted into the USAF. Again i really just think you have a hard time believing African Americans can do anything. I took the ASVAB (on my own) and received a 71 the basic minimum score for the USAF is a 40 or a 50 I believe. Passed criminal background check with ease. I graduated from BMT with honors. Went on to tech school. Quotas never effected me from my knowledge I was always overqualified, I was taught to be overqualified from birth. my recruiter may have had a quota, not sure, my recruiter works in a majority African American area anyway. Being that I haven't served as a recruiter I wouldn't know what the quotas were where for recruiting.

My mother feared people like you tremendously, though, and told us constantly that we not only had to be as "good as the white kids" but we had to be "better". If "the white kids" learned how to read at 5 we had to learn at four. If "the white kids" knew how to add we had to add and multiply. If "the white kids" were learning history we had to know history and geography. Growing up around mostly black people I never knew what white kids she was talking about, but that's the thing she constantly had this fear of her kids growing up and being treated like welfare cases. I hear that that's common though within a lot of minority households. I know mine was like that.

I don't personally have the same fears, even though I've had to go threw my fair share of shit in my short life already with people assuming that because I'm black raised by a single mother I'm some sort of charity case and that I owe somebody something.

No I'm not grateful to "the white man" for getting straight A's.
No I'm not grateful to "the white man" that I got accepted in the USAF.

I'm also not mad at racists who may or may not hire me, that's your loss. My resume speaks for itself. My work speaks for me. Who i am overshadows my color. Yes my culture is an important part of my life. I'm the child of a mixed Native American and African American woman and of a Haitian father. Of that heritage I'm proud, but I am who I am and I am not simply "Haitian" or "black" or "Indian".

I also don't blame "the white man" for any personal struggles I have. I deal with them and live my life.

I grew up in Meridian, Mississippi. The only thing I got from white men as a child was dirty looks and the occasional head nod. Quite frankly, I've been called "******" on two or three occasions. I've been told by just about everyone in my life that I shouldn't succeed and that I should be a charity case, except for one person. That's the one who reared me to be better then every white person around me. I tend to try not to think like her and not to measure my success against people of other races. Reality is though it's still in the back of my mind, even at work in my various past jobs I always kept up with the work and was the hardest worker. I think in the back of my mind it was because of the stereotypes. Damn shame.

whatever. its amazing how often blacks on message boards are upstanding and outstanding while the blacks you meet in real life are often very similar to what the statistics say they are like. I suppose there is a large restriction of range issue in effect.

I bet you've met three black people in your entire life. If that.

Ever been to Lithonia, Georgia?
Ever been to Upper Marlboro, Maryland?
Ever been to Desoto, Texas?

Upper Middle Class black suburban families all raising kids with families. Yet you KNOWINGLY CHOSE to assume that all blacks are "stereotypical". Even so, I'm very sure that out of the "stereotypical blacks" you claim to have met, you've never seen their GPA. Assuming things about people based on how they act outside of professional environments is always asking for trouble.

 

[uptownlivin90]

She paid income taxes like everyone else. For the most part during our lives she brought in anywhere from 32 to 45K a year. When we moved to the DC area it was more towards 50K.

As for affirmative action how so? I'm not aware that up to this point affirmative action has had anything to do with my being accepted into the USAF. Again i really just think you have a hard time believing African Americans can do anything. I took the ASVAB (on my own) and received a 71 the basic minimum score for the USAF is a 40 or a 50 I believe. Passed criminal background check with ease. I graduated from BMT with honors. Went on to tech school. Quotas never effected me from my knowledge I was always overqualified, I was taught to be overqualified from birth. my recruiter may have had a quota, not sure, my recruiter works in a majority African American area anyway. Being that I haven't served as a recruiter I wouldn't know what the quotas were where for recruiting.

My mother feared people like you tremendously, though, and told us constantly that we not only had to be as "good as the white kids" but we had to be "better". If "the white kids" learned how to read at 5 we had to learn at four. If "the white kids" knew how to add we had to add and multiply. If "the white kids" were learning history we had to know history and geography. Growing up around mostly black people I never knew what white kids she was talking about, but that's the thing she constantly had this fear of her kids growing up and being treated like welfare cases. I hear that that's common though within a lot of minority households. I know mine was like that.

I don't personally have the same fears, even though I've had to go threw my fair share of shit in my short life already with people assuming that because I'm black raised by a single mother I'm some sort of charity case and that I owe somebody something.

No I'm not grateful to "the white man" for getting straight A's.
No I'm not grateful to "the white man" that I got accepted in the USAF.

I'm also not mad at racists who may or may not hire me, that's your loss. My resume speaks for itself. My work speaks for me. Who i am overshadows my color. Yes my culture is an important part of my life. I'm the child of a mixed Native American and African American woman and of a Haitian father. Of that heritage I'm proud, but I am who I am and I am not simply "Haitian" or "black" or "Indian".

I also don't blame "the white man" for any personal struggles I have. I deal with them and live my life.

I grew up in Meridian, Mississippi. The only thing I got from white men as a child was dirty looks and the occasional head nod. Quite frankly, I've been called "******" on two or three occasions. I've been told by just about everyone in my life that I shouldn't succeed and that I should be a charity case, except for one person. That's the one who reared me to be better then every white person around me. I tend to try not to think like her and not to measure my success against people of other races. Reality is though it's still in the back of my mind, even at work in my various past jobs I always kept up with the work and was the hardest worker. I think in the back of my mind it was because of the stereotypes. Damn shame.

whatever. its amazing how often blacks on message boards are upstanding and outstanding while the blacks you meet in real life are often very similar to what the statistics say they are like. I suppose there is a large restriction of range issue in effect.

By the way, if you're going to call ME racially inferior to YOU do us all a favor a grow the fuck up. Starting your post with "whatever" suggests to the rest of us that you have the majority of a 15 year old teenage girl pouting about not being to go to the mall. It's childish and doesn't belong in an adult conversation. Shalom.