Spare me the talk on JOB!

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Navy1960, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. Navy1960
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    Navy1960 Senior Member

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    The Obama administration pushed through the $800 billion economic stimulus bill last month because it said the measure would “save or create 3.5 million jobs” including 16,000 in New Hampshire.

    But a looming decision by Obama’s Defense Department could make saving some of those jobs harder.

    Over the last several weeks, Lockheed Martin has been involved in a massive advertising campaign designed to focus attention on the thousands of jobs associated with the production of the F-22 fighter jet. Nationwide, the F-22 line employs 95,000 workers at 1,000 companies in 44 states.
    NH’s 7,000 F-22 Jobs Still at Risk : Now! Hampshire

    In a time where the economy is in terrible shape and our defense is stretched to it's limits, now comes this. We pass Stimulus bills all in the name of stimulating employment and we have all seen how well that worked. We see political figures on a daily basis democrat and republican get up there and wax poetic about JOBS JOBS JOBS and then when the time comes to actually save them and actually provide for the defense needs of this nation what do they do? They strike it from the Defense Appropriations bill with McCain/Levin Amendment. I am frankly disgusted with those that represent this nation and their overall neglect of those that they represent , democrat and republican allke. The F-22 could have easily been kept a vital part of this nations defense industry had congress made the decision to just lift the ban on export to those friendly nations that had shown an interest and the cost to the taxpayer would have been next to nothing. However, in their haste to kill the F-22 the Senate has shown that they care little for the defense of this nation nor do they care for jobs. So spare me the talk of we need strong Unions, because you just killed 95,00o Union Jobs, spare me the talk on critical defense jobs, because you just killed them. and spare me the talk on how much you care about jobs because next election you won't have one.
     
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  2. MaggieMae
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    MaggieMae Reality bits

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    It seems the only ones advocating extending the F-22 funding are those Senators whose own states will be the sole beneficiary of jobs. I trust that there are plenty of reasons to end this program, after the existing contracts are fullfilled for, what, over 200 new F-22's? Which means that there won't be immediate job losses anyway.

    White House gains momentum in F-22 fight - David Rogers - POLITICO.com

    ...Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and the committee’s ranking Republican, Arizona Sen. John McCain, are the chief advocates for striking the F-22 funds. Matched against them and the president are Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) and Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), whose home state has a major stake in the production of engines for the costly fighter.

    ...At the Pentagon, Gates said Monday that claims of job losses as a result of ending F-22 production are a misnomer. Instead, ending the F-22 in favor of ramping up production of the Joint Strike Fighter, he said, will create jobs by fiscal year 2011, “if we don’t drain money away from” the new program.
     
  3. Navy1960
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    Navy1960 Senior Member

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    Gen. John D.W. Corley, the four-star chief of Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base, Va., wrote a letter to Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., about the impact of Obama and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates' decision to limit the number of F-22s in the U.S. inventory to 187.

    "In my opinion, a fleet of 187 F-22s puts execution of our current national military strategy at high risk in the near to mid term," Corley wrote in the June 9 correspondence. "To my knowledge, there are no studies that demonstrate that 187 F-22s are adequate to support our national military strategy."

    Corley's command organizes, trains and equips the Air Force's squadrons. His letter represents the clearest rebuke yet from within the military of the administration's decision to end production of the F-22 and could give some in Congress pause about ratifying one of the highest-profile proposals in Obama's first defense budget request. There are growing signs that some pivotal lawmakers may be leaning that way

    The most senior retired military officer to back President Obama's run for the White House says the president is making a "real mistake" in terminating F-22 production.

    Retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, who was the Air Force chief of staff during the 1991 Operation Desert Storm and who credited air power with winning the war, was the first four-star officer to endorse the one-term senator in his presidential campaign. McPeak traveled with Obama to bolster the candidate's commander-in-chief credentials, much to the chagrin of the general's fighter pilot colleagues.

    Top Obama Backer Warns Ending F-22 Production Is 'Real Mistake' - Political News - FOXNews.com

    WASHINGTON, Feb 17 (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force has concluded it needs more Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-22 Raptor fighter jets than have been ordered so far, but fewer than it previously sought, the service's top uniformed officer said on Tuesday.

    Gen. Norton Schwartz, Air Force chief of staff, said he would not dispute a characterization that over the coming three years the service was seeking to add 60 of the premier fighter jets to the 183 now on order, for a total of 243.

    The revised request would be for a fleet totaling fewer than 381 Raptors, the previous Air Force goal, Schwartz told reporters, without disclosing the new number.

    The Air Force once sought to buy as many as 750 F-22s, which it reckoned cost about $142 million apiece in fiscal 2008, not including development costs.

    The revised requirement is "driven by analysis as opposed to some other formulation," Schwartz said. "And I think it will withstand scrutiny."
    UPDATE 3-U.S. Air Force says needs more F-22 fighters | Markets | Markets News | Reuters

    I would rather Maggie listen to the warfighters on this issue and not some DoD wonk that is an appointee who has zero interest in the warfighter. This is the same DoD that has failed in 5 attempts to bring a Tanker to the inventory and a light helicopter to the Army or cancelled the Presidential helicpoter after spending billions of dollars with zero results but yet that has not stopped them from purchasing more C-130's or C-17's that the Air Force has repeatedly told congress it does not want or need. I find it amazing that the same people would portray the F-35 as good enough for now, since when is providing the tools to defend this nation fall under the catagory of good enough for now? I also find the this two faced attitude by both republicans and democrats on jobs on every bill that comes up and here they have an opportunity to actully save jobs and they kill them. In fact they could have even saved them just by the stroke of a pen and that would have cost this nation nothing in taxpayer dollars and kept a vital asset available if needed. I have come to the conclusion that NO ONE in Washington has the interest of this nation at heart and it further enforces my opinion that in order to effect real change ALL of the incumbants need to be voted out.
     
  4. Darkwind
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    Darkwind Gold Member

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    I think this is a mistake. The Raptor along with the the JSF F-35 Lightening II platform would allow for both our Navy and Air Force to retire older third and forth generation aircraft thus offsetting the costs increases to the F-22.

    These two platforms would be able to replace not only the Navy's F-18 Hornet inventory by allowing the F-22 to assume the premier Ariel combat role thus free in up the f-35, which has vtol and carrier capabilities, to perform as the strategic bomber and air support roles.

    The aircraft that could be retired would be the Marine Harrier, the F-15 and 16 platforms as well as a reduction in the f-18 inventories. I say a reduction because the 18's are as yet, a relatively young platform that has proven to be rugged and enduring.
     
  5. MaggieMae
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    MaggieMae Reality bits

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    So how many cold war tools should we continue to fund, even though the new enemy bears no resemblance to the old one (the Soviets)?? It's not as though we're dismantling the entire fleet. There simply is NOT enough money in the defense budget to do it all. How come you think the Pentagon should get everything it desires, yet Americans wanting to stay healthy must fight for every nickel?
     
  6. MaggieMae
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    MaggieMae Reality bits

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    "The reality is we are fighting two wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the F-22 has not performed a single mission in either theater. So it is principally for use against a near peer in a conflict, and I think we all know who that is," Gates said. "And looking at what I regard as the level of risk of conflict with one of those near peers over the next four or five years until the Joint Strike Fighter comes along, I think that something along the lines of 183 is a reasonable buy."
    --Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, addressing Congress in February
     
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  7. PubliusInfinitum
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    PubliusInfinitum BANNED

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    ROFLMNAO... Navy... you aren't working under the impression that these people actually give a fuck about US Jobs do you?

    Man sooner or later you've GOT to understand that their purpose is to SUBVERT THE VIABILITY OF THIS NATION.

    Buy dropping funding for the F22... they strike at national defense AND US Manufacturing... when the people who depend upon that contract get fired, they'll be dependent upon THE SUBVERSIVES... They'll NEED GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE... and those who depend upon you, aren't likely to vote against you or call and complain to legislators who are voting to give you MORE POWER.

    There's nothing complicated about this... it's just not a pleasent thing to consider.
     
  8. MaggieMae
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    MaggieMae Reality bits

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    You're fucking scary. :cuckoo:
     
  9. Navy1960
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    Navy1960 Senior Member

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    The F-15 Eagle has a perfect combat record of 101 victories and zero defeats. F-15s downed four Mig-29 fighters during the recent Balkan conflict and 33 of the 35 fixed-wing aircraft Iraq lost in air combat during Operation Desert Storm. During the Balkan conflict, the F-15E was the only fighter able to attack ground targets around the clock, in all weather conditions....
    Air-Attack.com :: F-15 Eagle Factsheet

    BUENOS AIRES, Argentina, May 17 (RIA Novosti, Yury Nikolayev) - Venezuela is considering replacing its contingent of U.S.-built F-16 multi-role fighters with Russian Su-35s, a high ranking Venezuelan general said.

    "We are considering procurement of Russia's Su-35 fighter aircraft to replace F-16s, after the United States banned weapons exports to Venezuela," Venezuelan General Staff official General Alberto Muller Rojas said. "At the moment the Su-35 is world's best multi-role fighter."

    The United States announced a ban on arms sales to Venezuela May 15. The U.S. State Department accused the South American country of having an intelligence-sharing relationship with Iran and Cuba, both of which the U.S. says are state sponsors of terrorism.

    Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has accused the United States of breaching an agreement to supply parts for Venezuela's F-16s.

    Venezuela looking to swap U.S. F-16 fighters for Russian Su-35s | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

    Underlying the proposal is the fact that age and OPTEMPO are wearing out the F/A-18Ds. There is already a projected three-and-a-half-squadron shortfall in the Marine fighter inventory lasting from 2009 until 2014, when JSFs - the only new fighters in Marine planning - are due to replace them. But unless something is done to extend the life of the Ds, says Beisbier, any slippage in JSF will leave the Marines with "little choice but to decommission four more F/A-18D squadrons." Ouch.

    The same situation is emerging in Australia, where there are reports that - if there is a further slip in the JSF program - the country may order more Super Hornets, beyond the 24 jets already on order, possibly as part of a defense review to be announced around the end of the year. In Australia's case, if the JSF slips, the choice is to add to the Super Hornet buy (with EA-18G Growlers, Super Hornets or both) or to attempt more life-extension on the classic Hornets. See these notes from Eric Palmer
    Ares Homepage

    The federal opposition has dismissed new doubts about the capacity of the multi-billion dollar Joint Strike Fighter to perform against jets used by Russia and China.

    The JSF jets, for which Australia is likely to pay $16 billion, were comprehensively beaten in highly classified simulated dogfights against Russian-built Sukhoi fighter aircraft, it has been reported.

    The war games, conducted at Hawaii's Hickam airbase last month, were witnessed by at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia's peak military spy agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation, The West Australian said.

    Opposition defence spokesman Nick Minchin said he was taking "with a grain of salt" the validity of the report.

    Australia's fighter jets 'clubbed' by Russians - National - BrisbaneTimes


    Maggie.. Gates is an appointee and I could care less what his opinion is on the number needed by the Air Force. You remember this is the same DoD that has spent over 71 billion dollars on a helicopter for the President and cancelled it at an additional cost of 43 billion dollar and receieved exactly nothing for it. So again, I could care less what Gates assesment is. US Air Force has stated the number needed to fill the mission and that number is for 60 additional aircraft. Further, this talk of "well the cold war is over" so we don't need cold war aircraft is made by those who have zero idea of what they are talking about. Air Superiority and the need for it does not stop with the end of a regime, further, Russia as I have shown has developed in the SU-35/37 a very capable aircraft that is able in most ciscumstances to defeat the F-35 in several envelopes. They also are as of this moment clearly exporting this aircraft to all buyers. China is also develping an aircraft along the lines of the F-22 that will defeat the F-35. So when the Air Force makes it known that they require the worlds premire fighter then our Govt. should provide it to them. In addition the the jobs I mentioned above will just mean that many more people in the unemployment line that I believe our Govt. had the chance to keep from joining. These kinds of jobs are not the kind that you just retrain someone if you want to build another aircraft they are highly specialized and take in some cases years to learn. Again, the case of the F-22 is just a sign of an even bigger issue and that is a congress that has little interest in the welfare of this nation and more interest in it's own welfare. I have contacted John McCains office to let him know he will not get my support for re-election and to inform him that congress should lift the export ban on the F-22 to allow nations like Aurtralia to buy this amazing aircraft and keep these good people in their jobs.
     
  10. Chris
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    Chris Gold Member

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    The F-22 was an incredible waste of money.

    Thank God they killed it.
     
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