Sovereign Citizens

[Grace]

Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just watched 60 Minutes and never heard of this movement until now.

Discuss?

 

[logical4u]

Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just watched 60 Minutes and never heard of this movement until now.

Discuss?

Years ago, there were groups that swore that it was unconstitutional to pay income tax. It sounds like part of that movement or something similar. It works if you don't have anything to loose: job, house, family. It sounds like they do have legal standing, but what "judge" (part of the system) would support an individual against the government?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Variations of the argument that an individual is "sovereign" have been rejected by the courts, especially in tax cases such as United States v. Hart,[6] Risner v. Commissioner,[7] Maxwell v. Snow,[8] Rowe v. Internal Revenue Serv.,[9] Heitman v. Idaho State Tax Commission,[10] Cobin v. Commissioner,[11] and Glavin v. United States.[12] The Internal Revenue Service has included "free born" or "sovereign" citizenship in its list of frivolous claims that may result in a $5000 penalty when used as the basis for an inaccurate tax return.[13]

Yeah – pretty much sums it up.

 

[Grace]

The program said something about paper terrorism..where those who have what they call just cause, file lawsuits and liens against judges, cops, etc...which in turn means they won't ever collect but it sure screws up the credit of those filed against. Hence, the term Paper Terrorism. It's frivolous lawsuits, yes, the point isn't to win. It's to freeze up or cause angst with even more paperwork.

Some care very extreme, some are dangerous, but what makes it different (from my understanding) it is not racial. All races can join or become a "sovereign citizen". They are against the government. All aspects of it.

 

[Two Thumbs]

"U.S. government has enslaved its citizens by using them as collateral against foreign debt."

This is basically true. The government wastes our money, knowing that we have to work to live and can therefore pay taxes. by driving the debt up, the dollar goes down, forcing people onto entitlements, which gives gov the excuse to raise taxes. [can't let children starve].

I wish them the best of luck. To fine a line for me to try and walk

 

[JBeukema]

Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just watched 60 Minutes and never heard of this movement until now.

You never heard of Oklahoma City before?

 

[Grace]

"U.S. government has enslaved its citizens by using them as collateral against foreign debt."

This is basically true. The government wastes our money, knowing that we have to work to live and can therefore pay taxes. by driving the debt up, the dollar goes down, forcing people onto entitlements, which gives gov the excuse to raise taxes. [can't let children starve].

I wish them the best of luck. To fine a line for me to try and walk

I did a google search and did some light reading on it. Sovereign Citizens is a term I never heard used before. Militants is what I heard most often and know they are all over, but the ones I heard most about were associated to racist groups. What one guy said that I read was similar to what you said, TwoThumbs. He said he pays his taxes but refuses his social security check. That part I don't understand. He said, not verbatim, is if he did accept it, he would be slave to the government but paying his fair share of taxes was being part of what the old government was all about. This still confuses me because he worked for his SSI. It's his.

 

[brokenarrow]

"U.S. government has enslaved its citizens by using them as collateral against foreign debt."

This is basically true. The government wastes our money, knowing that we have to work to live and can therefore pay taxes. by driving the debt up, the dollar goes down, forcing people onto entitlements, which gives gov the excuse to raise taxes. [can't let children starve].

I wish them the best of luck. To fine a line for me to try and walk

I did a google search and did some light reading on it. Sovereign Citizens is a term I never heard used before. Militants is what I heard most often and know they are all over, but the ones I heard most about were associated to racist groups. What one guy said that I read was similar to what you said, TwoThumbs. He said he pays his taxes but refuses his social security check. That part I don't understand. He said, not verbatim, is if he did accept it, he would be slave to the government but paying his fair share of taxes was being part of what the old government was all about. This still confuses me because he worked for his SSI. It's his.

​

 

[Mad Scientist]

Years ago, there were groups that swore that it was unconstitutional to pay income tax.

Tell us what law states you have to pay income tax. "Google" the 16th Amendment and then come back here.

 

[Two Thumbs]

"U.S. government has enslaved its citizens by using them as collateral against foreign debt."

This is basically true. The government wastes our money, knowing that we have to work to live and can therefore pay taxes. by driving the debt up, the dollar goes down, forcing people onto entitlements, which gives gov the excuse to raise taxes. [can't let children starve].

I wish them the best of luck. To fine a line for me to try and walk

I did a google search and did some light reading on it. Sovereign Citizens is a term I never heard used before. Militants is what I heard most often and know they are all over, but the ones I heard most about were associated to racist groups. What one guy said that I read was similar to what you said, TwoThumbs. He said he pays his taxes but refuses his social security check. That part I don't understand. He said, not verbatim, is if he did accept it, he would be slave to the government but paying his fair share of taxes was being part of what the old government was all about. This still confuses me because he worked for his SSI. It's his.

That's a little nuts. It actually is his money + intrest.

But not paying Fed taxes is Constitutional, taxing us is a crime.

The Fed used to hold lottories to raise money. Wanna road? Have a fair, buy tickets to a lotto, sell cookies, etc, etc. If we had kept doing that, we may not have the vast road system or dams, but we also wouldn't have lobbiest in DC making sure they got what they wanted and we didn't.

 

[uscitizen]

"U.S. government has enslaved its citizens by using them as collateral against foreign debt."

This is basically true. The government wastes our money, knowing that we have to work to live and can therefore pay taxes. by driving the debt up, the dollar goes down, forcing people onto entitlements, which gives gov the excuse to raise taxes. [can't let children starve].

I wish them the best of luck. To fine a line for me to try and walk

Yep it all started with George Washington and the Whiskey Tax.

So much for our wonderful perfect founding fathers.

 

[Two Thumbs]

"U.S. government has enslaved its citizens by using them as collateral against foreign debt."

This is basically true. The government wastes our money, knowing that we have to work to live and can therefore pay taxes. by driving the debt up, the dollar goes down, forcing people onto entitlements, which gives gov the excuse to raise taxes. [can't let children starve].

I wish them the best of luck. To fine a line for me to try and walk

Yep it all started with George Washington and the Whiskey Tax.

So much for our wonderful perfect founding fathers.

They get taxed on the 'proof' amount now. The weaker the drink the less tax they have to pay.

so now all American booze is weaker.

 

[peach174]

I watched that show.
They sound like a bunch of dangerous Kooks to me. How they get the idea that the 1800's was lawless is pretty twisted thinking to me. And all of them are in trouble from something or another. They are lawbreakers, and they are dangerous.

 

[JBeukema]

Sovereign Citizen Movement, for those with short memories:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

McVeigh was caught as a result of a routine traffic stop- because his getaway vehicle had Soverign Citizen plates in place of valid state-issued plates.

In April 1992, an angry resident of Sanilac County, Michigan, wrote a letter to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources stating he was no longer a "citizen of the corrupt political corporate State of Michigan and the United States of America" and was answerable only to the "Common Laws." He therefore expressly revoked his signature on any hunting or fishing licenses, which he viewed as contracts that fraudulently bound him to the illegitimate government of Michigan.
That obscure Michigan hunter would, three years later, become known to the entire world. He was Terry Nichols, friend and accomplice of Oklahoma City Federal Building bomber Timothy McVeigh. Nichols subscribed to an unusual right-wing anti-government ideo-logy whose adherents have in recent years increasingly plagued public officials, law enforcement officers and private citizens with a variety of tactics designed to attack the government and other forms of authority. Its members call themselves, variously, consti-tutionalists, freemen, preamble citizens, common law citizens and non-foreign/non-resident aliens (Nichols used several of these), but most commonly refer to themselves as "sovereign citizens.

Sovereign Citizen Movement -- Extremism in America

 

[konradv]

Years ago, there were groups that swore that it was unconstitutional to pay income tax.

Tell us what law states you have to pay income tax. "Google" the 16th Amendment and then come back here.

Why would anyone need to do that? If you've got a point to make, make it. Whatever argument you're going to use has already been struck down by the USSC anyway. Hell if I'm going on your wild goose chase!

 

[boedicca]

Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just watched 60 Minutes and never heard of this movement until now.

Discuss?

Discuss what?

Why anyone would bother to watch 60 Minutes?