Something different - Why should Republicans get a second shot.

[rdean]

You guys make this too easy.

First, i am not 'you guys.'

Eisenhower, a Republican, got us into Vietnam.

Wrong chauncey, LBJ committed us ground forces to Vietnam, a little trick called the gulf of tonkin was the ticket.

Wrong part two.
The british helped the rightful ruler of Iran, the Shah against a communist attempted takeover.

The incident wasn't even public knowledge until the 1990s, so it could not have launched 'islamic extremism', what a stupid claim.

Absolutely.

Stalin was just so much, eh sweetness?

You mean the one FDR provoked for two years through various breeches of international law?

You guys should really go and study history.

Again with the 'you guys.'

Let me explain it to you sonny, I'm not and never have been a Republican, so your stupid 'us vs them' games won't work with me.

That way you won't screw up like this so often.

I hope you learned something from the schooling you just recieved, but I doubt it.

I would be interested in any links you care to provide. You know, links like this one:

Eventually, the Eisenhower administration approved a joint British-American operation to overthrow Mossadeq, worried that his nationalist aspirations will lead to an eventual communist takeover (worried, no known communist plot existed). The operation was code-named Operation Ajax.

At first, the military coup seemed to fail, and the shah fled the country. After widespread rioting -- and with help from the CIA and British intelligence services -- Mossadeq was defeated and the shah returned to power, ensuring support for Western oil interests. Iranian people felt cheated. Mosadeq had sought to raise his country from poverty. Worst of all, the Iranian people who admired the United States, were shocked by these events. The United States was a beacon of hope for democracy.

A Brief History of Democracy in Iran | Iran Democracy Plan

 

[Big Fitz]

What good would that do, we're in wartime and there's no end in sight.

Easily remedied. Plus you make all future declarations of war with a sunset date, where they must renew the declaration if necessary. Done.

How about not going to war unless their is some extremely compelling national interest at stake?

 

[edthecynic]

It was also under Eisenhower that the CIA overthrew the Iranian government, causing the birth of international islamic extremism.

Wrong part two.
The british helped the rightful ruler of Iran, the Shah against a communist attempted takeover.

The incident wasn't even public knowledge until the 1990s, so it could not have launched 'islamic extremism', what a stupid claim.

Typical CON$ervative revisionism at its best.

The British didn't want to pay fair market value for Iranian oil so they teamed up with the US to overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY elected PM. It was all about OIL!!! It had absolutely nothing to do with the Commies.

And just how STUPID do you have to be to think the Iranians didn't know about a coup that happened in their own country in 1953 until the 1990s!!!

Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi: Biography from Answers.com

Coup plans which had stalled under Truman were immediately revived by an eager intelligence corps, with powerful aid from the brothers John Foster Dulles (Secretary of State) and Allen Welsh Dulles (CIA director), after Eisenhower's inauguration in 1953.

Under Kermit Roosevelt Jr.'s direction (a senior CIA agent, and grandson of the former U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt), the CIA and British intelligence funded and led a coup d'etat to overthrow the democratically elected prime minister with the help of military forces loyal to the Shah through Operation Ajax.

 

[xsited1]

Something different - Why should Republicans get a second shot.

Has Obama already been declared dictator for life?

 

[Harry Dresden]

No, republicans had their chance.

Its time to give Democrats a second chance. Let them implement every Carter policy they can get through congress. Once America sees how wonderful liberal and socialist policies work, we'll never have to worry about conservatives again.

tell them to take a trip to California....

 

[Harry Dresden]

OK, let's not bash Republicans. Let's ask:

Why should Republicans get a "second shot" at the nation? What will they bring to "heal the damage" that is here, for whatever reason it's here, it IS here.

What are Republican solutions?

What facts to have to back up those solutions?

Start with their many successes from the 8 years before Obama took office. What will they do to keep that success going?

just tell them to go to California......

 

[Harry Dresden]

OK, let's not bash Republicans. Let's ask:

Why should Republicans get a "second shot" at the nation? What will they bring to "heal the damage" that is here, for whatever reason it's here, it IS here.

What are Republican solutions?

What facts to have to back up those solutions?

Start with their many successes from the 8 years before Obama took office. What will they do to keep that success going?

Because the Democrats were handed the "keys to the castle" with their Presidency and SuperMajority and STILL managed to fuck it up?

They didn't fuck anything up. They are still cleaning up the mess left by the Republicans.

can you pass that joint this way please?.....

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

OK, let's not bash Republicans. Let's ask:

Why should Republicans get a "second shot" at the nation?

I have a better question. Why should your party or theirs get a second shot?

 

[beowolfe]

You guys make this too easy.

First, i am not 'you guys.'

Wrong chauncey, LBJ committed us ground forces to Vietnam, a little trick called the gulf of tonkin was the ticket.

Wrong part two.
The british helped the rightful ruler of Iran, the Shah against a communist attempted takeover.

The incident wasn't even public knowledge until the 1990s, so it could not have launched 'islamic extremism', what a stupid claim.

Absolutely.

Stalin was just so much, eh sweetness?

You mean the one FDR provoked for two years through various breeches of international law?

Again with the 'you guys.'

Let me explain it to you sonny, I'm not and never have been a Republican, so your stupid 'us vs them' games won't work with me.

That way you won't screw up like this so often.

I hope you learned something from the schooling you just recieved, but I doubt it.

I would be interested in any links you care to provide. You know, links like this one:

Eventually, the Eisenhower administration approved a joint British-American operation to overthrow Mossadeq, worried that his nationalist aspirations will lead to an eventual communist takeover (worried, no known communist plot existed). The operation was code-named Operation Ajax.

At first, the military coup seemed to fail, and the shah fled the country. After widespread rioting -- and with help from the CIA and British intelligence services -- Mossadeq was defeated and the shah returned to power, ensuring support for Western oil interests. Iranian people felt cheated. Mosadeq had sought to raise his country from poverty. Worst of all, the Iranian people who admired the United States, were shocked by these events. The United States was a beacon of hope for democracy.

A Brief History of Democracy in Iran | Iran Democracy Plan

So, you're not partisian, you're just ignorant of history. Saying LBJ got us into Vietnam by escalating the troop level is like saying Obama got us into Afghanistan by escalating the troop level.

January 1955 - The first direct shipment of U.S. military aid to Saigon arrives. The U.S. also offers to train the fledgling South Vietnam Army.

May 1955 - Prime Minister Diem wages a violent crackdown against the Binh Xuyen organized crime group based in Saigon which operates casinos, brothels and opium dens.

July 1955 - Ho Chi Minh visits Moscow and agrees to accept Soviet aid.

October 23, 1955 - Bao Dai is ousted from power, defeated by Prime Minister Diem in a U.S.-backed plebiscite which was rigged. Diem is advised on consolidating power by U.S. Air Force Col. Edward G. Lansdale, who is attached to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

October 26, 1955 - The Republic of South Vietnam is proclaimed with Diem as its first president. In America, President Eisenhower pledges his support for the new government and offers military aid.

Diem assigns most high level government positions to close friends and family members including his younger brother Ngo Dinh Nhu who will be his chief advisor. Diem's style of leadership, aloof and autocratic, will create future political problems for him despite the best efforts of his American advisors to popularize him via American-style political rallies and tours of the countryside.

December 1955 - In North Vietnam, radical land reforms by Communists result in land owners being hauled before "people's tribunals." Thousands are executed or sent to forced labor camps during this period of ideological cleansing by Ho Chi Minh.

In South Vietnam, President Diem rewards his Catholic supporters by giving them land seized from Buddhist peasants, arousing their anger and eroding his support among them. Diem also allows big land owners to retain their holdings, disappointing peasants hoping for land reform.

1956

January 1956 - Diem launches a brutal crackdown against Viet Minh suspects in the countryside. Those arrested are denied counsel and hauled before "security committees" with many suspects tortured or executed under the guise of 'shot while attempting escape.'

April 28, 1956 - The last French soldier leaves South Vietnam. The French High Command for Indochina is then dissolved.

The History Place - Vietnam War 1945-1960

At this point, Eisenhower was POTUS. Did we leave, no. We increased military aide to South Vietnam. So, like I said. It wasn't LBJ that got us into Vietnam, it was Eisenhower. And don't take that as a knock on Eisenhower. Given what he knew and believed at the time, he made the best decision possible....IMO.

Now, I challenge you to post a published timeline of Vietnam, showing it was LBJ that got us involved there.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Because Democrats are worse is NOT a solution.

Let's try this again:

OK, let's not bash Republicans. Let's ask:

Why should Republicans get a "second shot" at the nation? What will they bring to "heal the damage" that is here, for whatever reason it's here, it IS here.

What are Republican solutions?

What facts to have to back up those solutions?

Start with their many successes from the 8 years before Obama took office. What will they do to keep that success going?

hopefully both parties will fall by the wayside and a group of people who actually care about the place will walk in and take over.....sorry Dean,but that would mean that you would end up a miserable individual....the far lefties and righties would then have to go underground...

 

[beowolfe]

You guys make this too easy.

First, i am not 'you guys.'

Wrong chauncey, LBJ committed us ground forces to Vietnam, a little trick called the gulf of tonkin was the ticket.

Wrong part two.
The british helped the rightful ruler of Iran, the Shah against a communist attempted takeover.

The incident wasn't even public knowledge until the 1990s, so it could not have launched 'islamic extremism', what a stupid claim.

Absolutely.

Stalin was just so much, eh sweetness?

You mean the one FDR provoked for two years through various breeches of international law?

Again with the 'you guys.'

Let me explain it to you sonny, I'm not and never have been a Republican, so your stupid 'us vs them' games won't work with me.

That way you won't screw up like this so often.

I hope you learned something from the schooling you just recieved, but I doubt it.

I would be interested in any links you care to provide. You know, links like this one:

Eventually, the Eisenhower administration approved a joint British-American operation to overthrow Mossadeq, worried that his nationalist aspirations will lead to an eventual communist takeover (worried, no known communist plot existed). The operation was code-named Operation Ajax.

At first, the military coup seemed to fail, and the shah fled the country. After widespread rioting -- and with help from the CIA and British intelligence services -- Mossadeq was defeated and the shah returned to power, ensuring support for Western oil interests. Iranian people felt cheated. Mosadeq had sought to raise his country from poverty. Worst of all, the Iranian people who admired the United States, were shocked by these events. The United States was a beacon of hope for democracy.

A Brief History of Democracy in Iran | Iran Democracy Plan

BTW, saying the deposed Shah was the 'rightful ruler' of Iran is like saying King George was the rightful ruler of America after the revolutionary war.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Try asking it WITHOUT your partisan spin:

Start with their many successes from the 8 years before Obama took office. What will they do to keep that success going?

and you may get more people to chime in.

thats what Dean does....and Truthdoesntmatter cant see the spin...

 

[Harry Dresden]

Republicans deserve a second shot because they said they are sorry and won't do it again.

You see, the problem was they were not CONSERVATIVE enough. Bush and Cheney were such bleeding heart liberals that they were doomed to fail.

By the way, Republicans are now FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE and will cut taxes while maintaining a balanced budget. They also have this fantastic super-terrific healthcare plan waiting in the wings

were did you hear that RW....Fox News?.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Aren't they still rallying behind ***** Cheney's causes though?

Every time that lurch raises his slimy head to utter a word they revere him.

'Sup wit dat?!??

as much as i cant stand the slimeball..... revering him is better then sucking Pelosi's Twat... 'Sup wit dat?!??

 

[beowolfe]

Aren't they still rallying behind ***** Cheney's causes though?

Every time that lurch raises his slimy head to utter a word they revere him.

'Sup wit dat?!??

as much as i cant stand the slimeball..... revering him is better then sucking Pelosi's Twat... 'Sup wit dat?!??

Something tells me that you just might has a wee bit of a problem with women in power.

 

[Big Fitz]

January 1955 - The first direct shipment of U.S. military aid to Saigon arrives. The U.S. also offers to train the fledgling South Vietnam Army.

May 1955 - Prime Minister Diem wages a violent crackdown against the Binh Xuyen organized crime group based in Saigon which operates casinos, brothels and opium dens.

July 1955 - Ho Chi Minh visits Moscow and agrees to accept Soviet aid.

October 23, 1955 - Bao Dai is ousted from power, defeated by Prime Minister Diem in a U.S.-backed plebiscite which was rigged. Diem is advised on consolidating power by U.S. Air Force Col. Edward G. Lansdale, who is attached to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

October 26, 1955 - The Republic of South Vietnam is proclaimed with Diem as its first president. In America, President Eisenhower pledges his support for the new government and offers military aid.

Diem assigns most high level government positions to close friends and family members including his younger brother Ngo Dinh Nhu who will be his chief advisor. Diem's style of leadership, aloof and autocratic, will create future political problems for him despite the best efforts of his American advisors to popularize him via American-style political rallies and tours of the countryside.

December 1955 - In North Vietnam, radical land reforms by Communists result in land owners being hauled before "people's tribunals." Thousands are executed or sent to forced labor camps during this period of ideological cleansing by Ho Chi Minh.

In South Vietnam, President Diem rewards his Catholic supporters by giving them land seized from Buddhist peasants, arousing their anger and eroding his support among them. Diem also allows big land owners to retain their holdings, disappointing peasants hoping for land reform.

1956

January 1956 - Diem launches a brutal crackdown against Viet Minh suspects in the countryside. Those arrested are denied counsel and hauled before "security committees" with many suspects tortured or executed under the guise of 'shot while attempting escape.'

April 28, 1956 - The last French soldier leaves South Vietnam. The French High Command for Indochina is then dissolved.

The History Place - Vietnam War 1945-1960

At this point, Eisenhower was POTUS. Did we leave, no. We increased military aide to South Vietnam. So, like I said. It wasn't LBJ that got us into Vietnam, it was Eisenhower. And don't take that as a knock on Eisenhower. Given what he knew and believed at the time, he made the best decision possible....IMO.

Now, I challenge you to post a published timeline of Vietnam, showing it was LBJ that got us involved there.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry. Where does it say that we sent troops to fight on behalf of the South Vietnamese? I don't quite get that from sending military aid. If this were true, we've been in a war of aggression against the middle east since the first time we made a payment to Israel.

Training =/= waging war. Would you consider us waging war on the Germans before the Lusitania was sunk? Or before Pearl Harbor? But then again, It was Kennedy who sent in the first ground troops, not Ike.

 

[Harry Dresden]

OK, let's not bash Republicans. Let's ask:

Why should Republicans get a "second shot" at the nation? What will they bring to "heal the damage" that is here, for whatever reason it's here, it IS here.

What are Republican solutions?

What facts to have to back up those solutions?

Start with their many successes from the 8 years before Obama took office. What will they do to keep that success going?

Why did the country give Dems a 2nd, 3rd, and many other chances after Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Carter et all?

Their 'sucesses' include two worthless world wars, Vietnam and the birth of international islamic extremism.

You guys make this too easy. Eisenhower, a Republican, got us into Vietnam. It was also under Eisenhower that the CIA overthrew the Iranian government, causing the birth of international islamic extremism. Two worthless world wars, huh. I guess you think it would have been a good thing if Hitler had won WWII. And I also suppose that you don't think the US should respond when we are attacked by another nation.

You guys should really go and study history. That way you won't screw up like this so often.

Eisenhower just sent advisors there.....the troops came years after him....

 

[beowolfe]

January 1955 - The first direct shipment of U.S. military aid to Saigon arrives. The U.S. also offers to train the fledgling South Vietnam Army.

May 1955 - Prime Minister Diem wages a violent crackdown against the Binh Xuyen organized crime group based in Saigon which operates casinos, brothels and opium dens.

July 1955 - Ho Chi Minh visits Moscow and agrees to accept Soviet aid.

October 23, 1955 - Bao Dai is ousted from power, defeated by Prime Minister Diem in a U.S.-backed plebiscite which was rigged. Diem is advised on consolidating power by U.S. Air Force Col. Edward G. Lansdale, who is attached to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

October 26, 1955 - The Republic of South Vietnam is proclaimed with Diem as its first president. In America, President Eisenhower pledges his support for the new government and offers military aid.

Diem assigns most high level government positions to close friends and family members including his younger brother Ngo Dinh Nhu who will be his chief advisor. Diem's style of leadership, aloof and autocratic, will create future political problems for him despite the best efforts of his American advisors to popularize him via American-style political rallies and tours of the countryside.

December 1955 - In North Vietnam, radical land reforms by Communists result in land owners being hauled before "people's tribunals." Thousands are executed or sent to forced labor camps during this period of ideological cleansing by Ho Chi Minh.

In South Vietnam, President Diem rewards his Catholic supporters by giving them land seized from Buddhist peasants, arousing their anger and eroding his support among them. Diem also allows big land owners to retain their holdings, disappointing peasants hoping for land reform.

1956

January 1956 - Diem launches a brutal crackdown against Viet Minh suspects in the countryside. Those arrested are denied counsel and hauled before "security committees" with many suspects tortured or executed under the guise of 'shot while attempting escape.'

April 28, 1956 - The last French soldier leaves South Vietnam. The French High Command for Indochina is then dissolved.

The History Place - Vietnam War 1945-1960

At this point, Eisenhower was POTUS. Did we leave, no. We increased military aide to South Vietnam. So, like I said. It wasn't LBJ that got us into Vietnam, it was Eisenhower. And don't take that as a knock on Eisenhower. Given what he knew and believed at the time, he made the best decision possible....IMO.

Now, I challenge you to post a published timeline of Vietnam, showing it was LBJ that got us involved there.

I'm sorry. Where does it say that we sent troops to fight on behalf of the South Vietnamese? I don't quite get that from sending military aid. If this were true, we've been in a war of aggression against the middle east since the first time we made a payment to Israel.

Training =/= waging war. Would you consider us waging war on the Germans before the Lusitania was sunk? Or before Pearl Harbor? But then again, It was Kennedy who sent in the first ground troops, not Ike.[/QUOTE]


The Germans did and so did the Japanese. What you're forgetting is that if you have created, built, and are in control of someone's army and that army is attacked, you're in a war. It doesn't matter if a formal declaration is issued or not.

 

[Big Fitz]

War/ President / Party

Iraq War / Bush 43 / R
Vietnam / Kennedy / D
Korea / Truman / D
WW2 / FDR / D
WW1 / Wilson / D
Spanish American / McKinley / R
Civil War / Lincoln / R
Mexican-American War / Polk / D

If you want to look at it that way. Of the last 8 wars with our current parties in existence, or at least one of them, Dems were in charge 5 out of the 8 times. And in the 20th century ALL the wars were started/entered into by Democrats.

Military actions were not included, only "declared" wars or military actions considered wars generally by scholars.

 

[beowolfe]

BTW, the official declaration of war that began the Vietnam war was in 1959.

March 1959 - The armed revolution begins as Ho Chi Minh declares a People's War to unite all of Vietnam under his leadership. His Politburo now orders a changeover to an all-out military struggle. Thus begins the Second Indochina War.

Just like the WOT (or what ever name you wish to give it) didn't begin on 9-11. It was in 1998. Ole Slick probably didn't realize it, but that doesn't change the start date.