Some thoughts on Iraq!!

[Navy1960]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

 

[Sweet Willy]

And to think, Bush the first sent thousands of these people to their deaths. Encouraged an uprising of people with sticks and rocks against the worlds 4th largest army, leading them to beleive we would have their backs. And they were mecilessly slaughtered while we stood and watched from striking distance.

It takes a naive fool to think the US gives a damn about this. If we did, we could have stopped it when it mattered.

 

[sealybobo]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

For one, was he really that bad or are they exxaggerating? Since Bush/Cheney have lied several times, I tend to believe this information is bullshit too.

And there are evil dictators all over the world. What do you want to do about them?

And since Bush invaded, 1 million Iraqi's have died and millions more displaced.

I don't even want to get into this debate. I just want to suggest that maybe it is you that is swallowing bullshit. Let Iran deal with it. Let Saudi Arabia deal with it. We can't afford to get involved. Lets be Australia. They don't seem to get their panties in a bunch over dead Iraqi's. And how do you know who's in those graves? And it isn't like the Shiites are going to be any better.

And you think they live without without tyranny and opression? We don't even live without those things.

And so now we need to go start a war with Iran?

Ok, so lets say you are right about everything. Lets say I conceed all these things you said and I believe all that you posted. You're missing something. You're missing the sloppy job that GW did that COST US Soldiers their lives.

On purpose or were Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney just fuck ups?

I say they did it on purpose. They had our troops sitting in the middle of a civil war and they were STALLING so Hunt Oil could make money and so Haloburton/KBR could make money.

Do you think Haloburton/KBR want the wars to end? Fuck no!

So Bush used "Saddam's a bad man" in order to invade? Is that the new reason for the invasion?

Well then tell me why we are still there? And if you are able to answer, tell me why we are still paying and Iraq oil is not funding our efforts.

Remember when we hung Saddam? What were the hangmen chanting? Do you remember? Mook Tada, Mook Tada, as in Mook Tada El Sadr.

There is the next leader of Iraq. So when he becomes brutal and anti American, we can go spend $10 billion a month for 6 years to overthrow him too.

 

[sealybobo]

And to think, Bush the first sent thousands of these people to their deaths. Encouraged an uprising of people with sticks and rocks against the worlds 4th largest army, leading them to beleive we would have their backs. And they were mecilessly slaughtered while we stood and watched from striking distance.

It takes a naive fool to think the US gives a damn about this. If we did, we could have stopped it when it mattered.

And NAVY is that naive fool.

 

[MaggieMae]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

Frankly, I had no problem with taking out Saddam Hussein once and for all since it was clear he had no intention of abiding by anything the United Nations imposed. My problem with the Iraq war began when once he was captured, there was an opportunity for the U.S. to at least scale back and not get embroiled in the middle of a coming civil war. We had no business being there and trying to dictate how Iraq's political landscape should be without Saddam Hussein. We should have at least retreated to Kuwait and gone to a Plan B at that time, rather than waiting five years for General Patraeus to finally get it right after thousands dead, maimed, the country destroyed, and costing the US taxpayer $4.8 billion per month.

 

[sealybobo]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

Frankly, I had no problem with taking out Saddam Hussein once and for all since it was clear he had no intention of abiding by anything the United Nations imposed. My problem with the Iraq war began when once he was captured, there was an opportunity for the U.S. to at least scale back and not get embroiled in the middle of a coming civil war. We had no business being there and trying to dictate how Iraq's political landscape should be without Saddam Hussein. We should have at least retreated to Kuwait and gone to a Plan B at that time, rather than waiting five years for General Patraeus to finally get it right after thousands dead, maimed, the country destroyed, and costing the US taxpayer $4.8 billion per month.

And then you can discuss weather the lack of planning was done on purpose, because KBR, Haloburton, Hunt Oil and Blackwater are all still making billions every month.


War for profit anyone?

 

[Sweet Willy]

The Kurdish issue was a bunch of BS too. The war cry had become, at one time, "HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE !" This, of course, was news to Iraqis and Kurds alike. The Kurds were never "his people", they had actually been denied citizenship and then refused it when offered. They were in pact with Iran, a state enemy of Iraq. So, let's put the shoe on the other foot. The state of Idaho arms it's militia with tanks, grenades and AK 47s and then announces they have entered a pact with Iran and are now an open enemy of the US, inside of the US.

We wouldn't be hostile towards our own people would we? That would make us some kind of monsters.

 

[Navy1960]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

Frankly, I had no problem with taking out Saddam Hussein once and for all since it was clear he had no intention of abiding by anything the United Nations imposed. My problem with the Iraq war began when once he was captured, there was an opportunity for the U.S. to at least scale back and not get embroiled in the middle of a coming civil war. We had no business being there and trying to dictate how Iraq's political landscape should be without Saddam Hussein. We should have at least retreated to Kuwait and gone to a Plan B at that time, rather than waiting five years for General Patraeus to finally get it right after thousands dead, maimed, the country destroyed, and costing the US taxpayer $4.8 billion per month.

Maggie, my feelings on the war itself was that the war, was entered into without any clear "exit strategy" which led to years of mismanagement of the war and futher led to more violence. IMHO this U.S. as you have had clear goals upon entering Iraq, once there executed those goals with massive force, then exited in a quick and concise manner. However, given the fact that this War was mismanaged from the start and all the factors, that led up to finally getting it right does not mitigate my original post in that, if for one simple reason alone the Iraqis are left with the chance to choose their own destiny whatever that may be, and are free from torture,ethnic violence, then the mission there was worth every sacrifice made to free those people from that. Further, I'd like to take this moment to thank sealy for making my point on partisanship for me here, I could not have made it any better myself.

 

[strollingbones]

i wonder how many years it will take to reconize the mass graves that are being made now...isnt the time of the killing the time to protest

 

[sealybobo]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

Frankly, I had no problem with taking out Saddam Hussein once and for all since it was clear he had no intention of abiding by anything the United Nations imposed. My problem with the Iraq war began when once he was captured, there was an opportunity for the U.S. to at least scale back and not get embroiled in the middle of a coming civil war. We had no business being there and trying to dictate how Iraq's political landscape should be without Saddam Hussein. We should have at least retreated to Kuwait and gone to a Plan B at that time, rather than waiting five years for General Patraeus to finally get it right after thousands dead, maimed, the country destroyed, and costing the US taxpayer $4.8 billion per month.

Maggie, my feelings on the war itself was that the war, was entered into without any clear "exit strategy" which led to years of mismanagement of the war and futher led to more violence. IMHO this U.S. as you have had clear goals upon entering Iraq, once there executed those goals with massive force, then exited in a quick and concise manner. However, given the fact that this War was mismanaged from the start and all the factors, that led up to finally getting it right does not mitigate my original post in that, if for one simple reason alone the Iraqis are left with the chance to choose their own destiny whatever that may be, and are free from torture,ethnic violence, then the mission there was worth every sacrifice made to free those people from that. Further, I'd like to take this moment to thank sealy for making my point on partisanship for me here, I could not have made it any better myself.

You said, "If Iraqis are left with the chance to choose their own destiny whatever that may be, and are free from torture,ethnic violence, then the mission there was worth every sacrifice made to free those people from that."

So if they choose Death To America as their destiny, will it still be worth it?

And what if they want muslim law and they oppress women? If thats what they chose.

Free? Who says they are free? We own them now.

You gonna police their elections to assure they aren't rigged? You don't even realize you yourself aren't free. Stupid.

 

[Navy1960]

So as I understand it, then it's okay to gas people you disagree with? as long as they are close to Iran thats okay? Why do you think the Kurds armed themselves in the first place? It wouldn't be to protect themselves against a Govt. that would torture them and muder them would it? I really do appreciate some of you for making my partisan point here for me. That is that as long as wars belong to Bush 1 or 2 it's okay to torture and murder innocent civilians because that does not fit in with the current mode of political thinking, partisanship even blinds you to humanity. Want an example, how about, the belief that I don't even think that many people died to paraphrase, unless it was the US doing it then it was millions.

Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gas attack began early in the evening of 16 March 1988, after a series of napalm and rocket attacks, when a group of up to 20 Iraqi MiG and Mirage aircraft began dropping chemical bombs. According to pro-Iranian Kurdish commanders in Halabja, there were up to 14 aircraft sorties, with seven to eight planes in each group. Iraqi helicopters coordinating the operation were also seen. Eyewitnesses have told of clouds of smoke billowing upward "white, black and then yellow"', rising as a column about 150 feet (46 meters) in the air.[1] Survivors said the gas at first scented with the smell of sweet apples

 

[MaggieMae]

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce) occurred in the period 16–17 March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq War. Chemical weapons (CW) were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja, killing thousands of people, most of them civilians (3,200-5,000 dead on the spot and 7,000-10,000 injured[1]). Thousands more died of horrific complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack[2].

The incident, which Human Rights Watch (HRW) defined as an act of genocide, was as of 2009 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history[citation needed].
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who would simply dismiss these acts based on political ideals that don't fit in with the current thinking of their candidate. Never the less these things did happen under Saddam Hussein if just bringing him to justice for these crimes against humanity is the only legacy of Iraq. Then the soldiers, sailor, airman, and marines who gave their lives in Iraq gave the people of Iraq a chance to live without tyranny and opression. I see many people on here justify actions this nation has taken in the Balkens for things such as ethnic cleansing. However, when it comes to Iraq because it was "George Bush's" war it's somehow okay to kill innocent people and leave them to the devices of people who would continue the same tatics that were condemned in the Balkens. If this nation went into Iraq on the pretext of planting tree's in the end, the fact that the Iraqi people have a chance to decide their own path is the ultimate victory, regardless of how fast, or how soon or President may want to leave them to their own devices once again...

Frankly, I had no problem with taking out Saddam Hussein once and for all since it was clear he had no intention of abiding by anything the United Nations imposed. My problem with the Iraq war began when once he was captured, there was an opportunity for the U.S. to at least scale back and not get embroiled in the middle of a coming civil war. We had no business being there and trying to dictate how Iraq's political landscape should be without Saddam Hussein. We should have at least retreated to Kuwait and gone to a Plan B at that time, rather than waiting five years for General Patraeus to finally get it right after thousands dead, maimed, the country destroyed, and costing the US taxpayer $4.8 billion per month.

Maggie, my feelings on the war itself was that the war, was entered into without any clear "exit strategy" which led to years of mismanagement of the war and futher led to more violence. IMHO this U.S. as you have had clear goals upon entering Iraq, once there executed those goals with massive force, then exited in a quick and concise manner. However, given the fact that this War was mismanaged from the start and all the factors, that led up to finally getting it right does not mitigate my original post in that, if for one simple reason alone the Iraqis are left with the chance to choose their own destiny whatever that may be, and are free from torture,ethnic violence, then the mission there was worth every sacrifice made to free those people from that. Further, I'd like to take this moment to thank sealy for making my point on partisanship for me here, I could not have made it any better myself.

The problem most folks who became war opponents, like me, was the simple fact that the U.S. cannot possibly go around the world entering hostile countries and "teaching" them how to develop democratic principles of freedom and liberty. Iraq may have a more fair democratic process today than it did nine years ago and beyond, but the warring factions are still fighting for internal power.

When will it end? Why is it OUR job to make sure it does? Why don't we just go into Zimbabwe and take out Mugabe? Why don't we send troops into The Sudan and end that genocide once and for all? The world has many tyranical leaders, and the United States cannot fix it all. We can't fix it by massive foreign aid, and we can't fix it by removing despots.

 

[Navy1960]

sealy, I've said this to you many times, and willsay it again, as for the name calling, when you resort to name calling you dishonor yourself and your message. So when your ready to engage me in a debate as an adult I will engage you back, Until that time I have nothing but advice to offer you as a child.

 

[Sweet Willy]

So as I understand it, then it's okay to gas people you disagree with? as long as they are close to Iran thats okay? Why do you think the Kurds armed themselves in the first place? It wouldn't be to protect themselves against a Govt. that would torture them and muder them would it? I really do appreciate some of you for making my partisan point here for me. That is that as long as wars belong to Bush 1 or 2 it's okay to torture and murder innocent civilians because that does not fit in with the current mode of political thinking, partisanship even blinds you to humanity. Want an example, how about, the belief that I don't even think that many people died to paraphrase, unless it was the US doing it then it was millions.

Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gas attack began early in the evening of 16 March 1988, after a series of napalm and rocket attacks, when a group of up to 20 Iraqi MiG and Mirage aircraft began dropping chemical bombs. According to pro-Iranian Kurdish commanders in Halabja, there were up to 14 aircraft sorties, with seven to eight planes in each group. Iraqi helicopters coordinating the operation were also seen. Eyewitnesses have told of clouds of smoke billowing upward "white, black and then yellow"', rising as a column about 150 feet (46 meters) in the air.[1] Survivors said the gas at first scented with the smell of sweet apples

Our interest is not human rights or attrocities. Never has been. We've stood by while all kinds of people were slaughtered, all around the world. Pretending that these moral justifications were any part of our motivation to war is ignorant. They only serve as a propoganda tool to rally the sheeple and a hindsight justification to cover the trail of blood, guts and war cash.

 

[sealybobo]

So as I understand it, then it's okay to gas people you disagree with? as long as they are close to Iran thats okay? Why do you think the Kurds armed themselves in the first place? It wouldn't be to protect themselves against a Govt. that would torture them and muder them would it? I really do appreciate some of you for making my partisan point here for me. That is that as long as wars belong to Bush 1 or 2 it's okay to torture and murder innocent civilians because that does not fit in with the current mode of political thinking, partisanship even blinds you to humanity. Want an example, how about, the belief that I don't even think that many people died to paraphrase, unless it was the US doing it then it was millions.

Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gas attack began early in the evening of 16 March 1988, after a series of napalm and rocket attacks, when a group of up to 20 Iraqi MiG and Mirage aircraft began dropping chemical bombs. According to pro-Iranian Kurdish commanders in Halabja, there were up to 14 aircraft sorties, with seven to eight planes in each group. Iraqi helicopters coordinating the operation were also seen. Eyewitnesses have told of clouds of smoke billowing upward "white, black and then yellow"', rising as a column about 150 feet (46 meters) in the air.[1] Survivors said the gas at first scented with the smell of sweet apples

Oh kiss our asses faggot. Was getting rid of Saddam worth the lives lost and the money spent? No. And did your fucking party do just about the worst fucking job ever? Was it the biggest looting of our treasury or the biggest US foreign policy blunder? Pick one you stupid cock sucker.

Answer please so you can prove our point that anything the GOP does is ok with you because you are the GOP's little bitch.

PS. The same shit we are saying about Iraq, the GOP said about Kosovo. There were mass graves there too, but the GOP did not like the US getting involved. What's the difference you fucking right wing idiot? Oil. And are we getting any of that oil? Are you? No. Shell, hunt oil, Bush, Cheney, they're getting rich, and you're funding their little venture.

You really really need to wake the fuck up. It drives me crazy to see someone so brainwashed, naive, stupid.

Oh, he GASSED his own people, WAAAAA, we can't afford to help you stupid ****. Get your head out of Rush's ass and stop talking bullshit. Or go enlist so you can drive over a roadside bomb. Sacrafice yourself you pussy! Fuck yourself!!!

 

[sealybobo]

sealy, I've said this to you many times, and willsay it again, as for the name calling, when you resort to name calling you dishonor yourself and your message. So when your ready to engage me in a debate as an adult I will engage you back, Until that time I have nothing but advice to offer you as a child.

The things you say make me want to puke. Sweet Willy can handle you. He said it wiithout cursing.

It just drives me up a fucking wall for a brainwashed right winger to call me partisan. Thanks for proving my point you said? Kiss my fucking ass.

Sorry.

 

[Navy1960]

Frankly, I had no problem with taking out Saddam Hussein once and for all since it was clear he had no intention of abiding by anything the United Nations imposed. My problem with the Iraq war began when once he was captured, there was an opportunity for the U.S. to at least scale back and not get embroiled in the middle of a coming civil war. We had no business being there and trying to dictate how Iraq's political landscape should be without Saddam Hussein. We should have at least retreated to Kuwait and gone to a Plan B at that time, rather than waiting five years for General Patraeus to finally get it right after thousands dead, maimed, the country destroyed, and costing the US taxpayer $4.8 billion per month.

Maggie, my feelings on the war itself was that the war, was entered into without any clear "exit strategy" which led to years of mismanagement of the war and futher led to more violence. IMHO this U.S. as you have had clear goals upon entering Iraq, once there executed those goals with massive force, then exited in a quick and concise manner. However, given the fact that this War was mismanaged from the start and all the factors, that led up to finally getting it right does not mitigate my original post in that, if for one simple reason alone the Iraqis are left with the chance to choose their own destiny whatever that may be, and are free from torture,ethnic violence, then the mission there was worth every sacrifice made to free those people from that. Further, I'd like to take this moment to thank sealy for making my point on partisanship for me here, I could not have made it any better myself.

The problem most folks who became war opponents, like me, was the simple fact that the U.S. cannot possibly go around the world entering hostile countries and "teaching" them how to develop democratic principles of freedom and liberty. Iraq may have a more fair democratic process today than it did nine years ago and beyond, but the warring factions are still fighting for internal power.

When will it end? Why is it OUR job to make sure it does? Why don't we just go into Zimbabwe and take out Mugabe? Why don't we send troops into The Sudan and end that genocide once and for all? The world has many tyranical leaders, and the United States cannot fix it all. We can't fix it by massive foreign aid, and we can't fix it by removing despots.

Honestly Maggie, I think that human suffering at the hands of despots should be roundly condemned the world over. However, I do not think the US Military is the best vehicle to to enforce the rule of law around the world each time one should pop it's head. In the case of Iraq, my feelings are more born out of , we are there and therefor should complete the mission and take pride in the fact a very evil man was removed from power. If the U.S. cannot get other members of the world community to recognize that people want to live without tyranny and just be free to choose whatever form of Govt. they wish then we cannot and should not send the U.S. military to every single spot on the globe to enforce an ideal unless the U.S. has been subject to that evil or has a defensable position there. The U.S. Military is not the solution to every single problem the world over in I submit to you that military is not the best vehicle to police other nations or provide aid to them. It is and can be used to show other nations that their actions and intents are harmful to their own people and can be used as a force for good when missions are planned properly and executed correctly.

 

[MaggieMae]

So as I understand it, then it's okay to gas people you disagree with? as long as they are close to Iran thats okay? Why do you think the Kurds armed themselves in the first place? It wouldn't be to protect themselves against a Govt. that would torture them and muder them would it? I really do appreciate some of you for making my partisan point here for me. That is that as long as wars belong to Bush 1 or 2 it's okay to torture and murder innocent civilians because that does not fit in with the current mode of political thinking, partisanship even blinds you to humanity. Want an example, how about, the belief that I don't even think that many people died to paraphrase, unless it was the US doing it then it was millions.

Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gas attack began early in the evening of 16 March 1988, after a series of napalm and rocket attacks, when a group of up to 20 Iraqi MiG and Mirage aircraft began dropping chemical bombs. According to pro-Iranian Kurdish commanders in Halabja, there were up to 14 aircraft sorties, with seven to eight planes in each group. Iraqi helicopters coordinating the operation were also seen. Eyewitnesses have told of clouds of smoke billowing upward "white, black and then yellow"', rising as a column about 150 feet (46 meters) in the air.[1] Survivors said the gas at first scented with the smell of sweet apples

What about the slaughter of the Kurds following the first Gulf War, when the U.S. promised protection (and even help in forming an independent state of Kurdistan)? That was George H.W. Bush's doing. The Kurds remain an oppressed minority even today. Iraq’s 2009 provincial elections after which it was boasted that Iraq now had a "centrist" government, there were no elections held in Kurdistan and Kirkuk, so does that mean that those Kurds who have found a seat in the Iraqi Parliament in Baghdad are just for show?

 

[Navy1960]

Competition stiff for parliamentary seats in what many believe will be a hotly-contested campaign.
Election fever has hit the Kurdish city of Sulaimaniyah ahead of a highly anticipated poll that could change the landscape of Kurdish politics.

A record 24 parties and coalitions will compete for parliamentary seats in the Kurdistan Regional Government's July 25 elections, which will also elect the KRG's president. Five candidates are running for the regional presidency.

Analysts and politicians are anticipating a hard-fought parliamentary campaign, especially in Sulaimaniyah - the largest of Kurdistan's three provinces - where an independent contender is challenging the supremacy of the two leading Kurdish parties.

UNPO - Iraqi Kurdistan: Election Fever Rises

If your asking me , are the Kruds treated any better now than the were under the previous Govt. I think the answer to that is fairly obvious. However, I do think it will take some time for the Iraq to stabalize into a Govt. that will truely represent the interests of all Iraqis. I have always been one who, would have looked into the option of allowing for seperate national status for the Kurds as they tend to be more independant anyway. This solution might have worked well too for all of Iraq, however until such time as Iraq settles into the true form of Govt. that represents them we won't know. I do submit though that the Kurds are much better off now than they were under the previous regime.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Nobody, NOBODY questions the fact that Saddam Hussein was a brutal autocratic piece of shit that murdered hundreds of thousands of his own. It's just really funny that the great majority of these hundreds of thousands were murdered with the full and total approval of your government, who was backing, funding, arming and supporting Saddam Hussein during his worst atrocities. And then many of the same people just ride in and have the cynicism to claim to be defending democracy and human rights? This war had NOTHING to do with democracy or human rights. It wasn't even a war aim. It was sold as a preventive measure on "weapons of mass destruction" which didn't even exist; as a cover to flex imperial muscle and secure the energy resources of the region. Democracy didn't even enter the picture until this people needed SOMETHING to bring at least a moderate, cynical measure of 'legitimacy' for the killing of a million Iraqis and the refugee-zation of a fifth of the country's people. Today nearly 5,000,000 Iraqis are internal or external refugees, the country's still in shambles. You can't even walk around the goddamn place. Yeah, friggin' thanks.

"But We have ALWAYS been at War with Eastasia!" <_>