Some Leaders Actually Serve & Lead

[Alpha1]

here is your words:

If you do those two things I will agree that I was wrong. Will... at some time in the future, conditional upon my doing something. I did it. Your turn.

say it.

say, "I was LYING when I said you had been attacking Bush's military record since before the 2000 election. I had no basis to say that and it was WRONG of me to do so."

say it.

Maybe MM's memory isn't as good as it used to be....
I would agree, that MM has usually always defended those that have openly attacked Bush's NG service was far back as I can remember....

MM has not ever suggested that those attackers show any reasonable proof about their accusations...he defends their assertions without question...just as he has recently stated he believes the Texas Lt. Gov.'s accusations (without proof)seems he considers the accusation itself proof....

Just as he has defended Durbin comparing our troops to Nazies and Kerry calling our troops too stupid to get out of military service, (or whatever it was..)and he continues to insist Bush lied about Iraq even though hes been shown over and over that those "lies" were essentially,(sometimes exactly) what those in his own party were saying for years previous to Bush.....

What Dims said in January suddenly become lies in February because Bush says them....MM reasoning sees nothing ironic about a scenario like that...

 

[rayboyusmc]

And tell us if you ever claimed Congress did not get all the intel?

I don't know if he did, but if you think that the congress gets the same intelligence as the president, then you need to go back to kintergarten.

What made you such a warm, loving and open person, Gunny? You may not realize it, but on occasion your threads could warrant one thinking your are a little bit extreme and could also converse well with the mental midgets you invoke.

But have a great day anyway. It will only get worse when Hillary or Obama become the next president and both the congress and senate get a real democratic majority.

 

[Alpha1]

Just for you kid....this is how its done......



From NBC's Bob Windrem and Mark Murray
A new book's revelation that Hillary Clinton did not read the CIA National Intelligence Estimate on Iraqi WMD before voting on war authorization should not be a surprise. Most congressmen and senators didn't. And there is a (classified) list of who did and who didn't because members had to visit a secure room -- called the SCIF -- at the Capitol to view it. Members have to sign the document out. In the case of the NIE on Iraq, there were separate logs for the five-page executive summary and the full 90-page NIE.

According to a former senior US intelligence official, "only a handful" of congressmen and senators actually went to the SCIF and signed out the NIE. Most who did were members of the intelligence and armed services committees. Although the log is classified, several senators have admitted either reading or not reading the report. Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-WV, of the Senate Intelligence Committee was one who admitted he read it. Among those who have admitted they didn't were Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson, D-FL, and Sen. Harry Reid, D-NV, now Senate majority leader.

The Washington Post also reported this back in 2004: "In the fall of 2002, as Congress debated waging war in Iraq, copies of a 92-page assessment of Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction sat in two vaults on Capitol Hill, each protected by armed security guards and available to any member who showed up in person, without staff. But only a few ever did. No more than six senators and a handful of House members read beyond the five-page National Intelligence Estimate executive summary, according to several congressional aides responsible for safeguarding the classified material."

 

[maineman]

Maybe MM's memory isn't as good as it used to be....
I would agree, that MM has usually always defended those that have openly attacked Bush's NG service was far back as I can remember....

MM has not ever suggested that those attackers show any reasonable proof about their accusations...he defends their assertions without question...just as he has recently stated he believes the Texas Lt. Gov.'s accusations (without proof)seems he considers the accusation itself proof....

Just as he has defended Durbin comparing our troops to Nazies and Kerry calling our troops too stupid to get out of military service, (or whatever it was..)and he continues to insist Bush lied about Iraq even though hes been shown over and over that those "lies" were essentially,(sometimes exactly) what those in his own party were saying for years previous to Bush.....

What Dims said in January suddenly become lies in February because Bush says them....MM reasoning sees nothing ironic about a scenario like that...

as far back as 2004? I would agree. That's how far back.

I became "interested" in Bush's "heroic" "service" in TANG only after Kerry's service in Vietnam came under fire. Not before.


Durbin did not call our TROOPS nazis in the first plaqce but clarified himself nonetheless to remove any confusion. Kerry screwed up a dumb joke and immediately corrected himself.

If democrats lied - and only one or two of them ever expressed absolute certainty about WMD's - it really is irrelevant to the issue of whether Bush did. Bush lied us into a five year, half a trillion dollar, 32K dead and wounded GI's quagmire of a land war, IMHO. NO democrat ever did that.

As for democrats who voted FOR the use of force, I have often stated that they will all remain on MY shitlist until they repent for that sin.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

here is your words:

If you do those two things I will agree that I was wrong. Will... at some time in the future, conditional upon my doing something. I did it. Your turn.

say it.

say, "I was LYING when I said you had been attacking Bush's military record since before the 2000 election. I had no basis to say that and it was WRONG of me to do so."

say it.

Once again retard, a lie requires intent to decieve. Since I had none I won't be admitting I lied, since I did not. I will admit and have already ( you would know this if you were capable of reading English) that I might have been wrong.

This being the THIRD post in this thread I have done so. Your intelligence must have slipped since being on active duty, I wasn't aware we recruited and promoted morons as officers.

 

[maineman]

Once again retard, a lie requires intent to decieve. Since I had none I won't be admitting I lied, since I did not. I will admit and have already ( you would know this if you were capable of reading English) that I might have been wrong.

This being the THIRD post in this thread I have done so. Your intelligence must have slipped since being on active duty, I wasn't aware we recruited and promoted morons as officers.

you said you "will" admit...you never DID admit.

grammar above the junior high level is clearly above you.

And I was never "recruited". I was appointed...by my congressman... and then, after four years of study at a school you couldn't even THINK of getting into let alone finishing, I was commissioned... and then twenty one years later, after four promotions, I retired. No one, other than badly outmatched adversaries on internet message boards (like YOU!) has EVER mistaken me for a moron.

dumb lyin' chickenshit jarhead.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

you said you "will" admit...you never DID admit.

grammar above the junior high level is clearly above you.

And I was never "recruited". I was appointed...by my congressman... and then, after four years of study at a school you couldn't even THINK of getting into let alone finishing, I was commissioned... and then twenty one years later, after four promotions, I retired. No one, other than badly outmatched adversaries on internet message boards (like YOU!) has EVER mistaken me for a moron.

dumb lyin' chickenshit jarhead.

In other words you were not smart enough to get in the Naval Academy on your own, you needed to schmooze a Politician.

As for my intelligence, retard, I could have gone if I wanted. I chose to remain enlisted and do a real job. As for your 4 promotions in 21 years.... I got 6 in 11 years.

Remove all the NCO's and SNCO's from a unit and it quits functioning, same with a ship. Remove all the officers and it can and does function JUST fine. Further as enlisted your trained to take over 2 ranks above you in case of combat losses. Officers are NOT.

 

[maineman]

In other words you were not smart enough to get in the Naval Academy on your own, you needed to schmooze a Politician.

As for my intelligence, retard, I could have gone if I wanted. I chose to remain enlisted and do a real job. As for your 4 promotions in 21 years.... I got 6 in 11 years.

Remove all the NCO's and SNCO's from a unit and it quits functioning, same with a ship. Remove all the officers and it can and does function JUST fine. Further as enlisted your trained to take over 2 ranks above you in case of combat losses. Officers are NOT.

in other words, everyone is appointed by congressmen to service academies... and every loser on the block says that he could have gone there... talk is cheap.... and a lot of really smart guys started out in my class.... nearly 1400 of them... and just a little over 800 graduated... so, clearly, I ain't no retard and I ain't no moron.

and if you want to equate officer promotions to the ones you got for finishing boot camp, go for it! Didn't you come out as an E-3 after six months?

and if you think a ship can function without officers, you have never been at sea.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Ouch. Okay. Okay. I stand corrected. Perhaps his early release was legit. I plead ignorance.

It was legit. But is shows he couldn't even finish a nice tour in CONUS. Just a lot of little things that add up to define the man.

The papers were proved forged. The facts were never proven wrong.

 

[maineman]

It was legit. But is shows he couldn't even finish a nice tour in CONUS. Just a lot of little things that add up to define the man.

The papers were proved forged. The facts were never proven wrong.

exactly. Bush gets a free pass for a cakewalk tour stateside and Kerry is castigated for getting a silver star in Vietnam. hypocrites.

 

[DeadCanDance]

In other words you were not smart enough to get in the Naval Academy on your own, you needed to schmooze a Politician.

As for my intelligence, retard, I could have gone if I wanted. I chose to remain enlisted and do a real job. As for your 4 promotions in 21 years.... I got 6 in 11 years.

Remove all the NCO's and SNCO's from a unit and it quits functioning, same with a ship. Remove all the officers and it can and does function JUST fine. Further as enlisted your trained to take over 2 ranks above you in case of combat losses. Officers are NOT.

"In other words you were not smart enough to get in the Naval Academy on your own, you needed to schmooze a Politician."


Once again, I'm astonished that in spite of your alleged military career, how incredibly little you know about the US armed forces.

Let's leave your astonishingly inaccurate knowledge of the US military in the balkans aside. I'm still embarrased for you from that thread.

Any applicant for admission to Annapolis is required to be nominated by VIPs. Typically, and almost universally, by either a Senator or a Congressman/woman. You didn't know that?

 

[Alpha1]

maineman maineman is offline
Yellow Democrat

------
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayboyusmc View Post
It was legit. But is shows he couldn't even finish a nice tour in CONUS. Just a lot of little things that add up to define the man.

The papers were proved forged. The facts were never proven wrong.

idiot #1 speaks and
-----------
exactly. Bush gets a free pass for a cakewalk tour stateside and Kerry is castigated for getting a silver star in Vietnam. hypocrites.
__________________

idiot #2 agrees....
There were NO FACTS to prove wrong....there were accusations that could not be proven....neither idiot 1 or 2 can understand the difference....

Of course, no mention of their big hero, that just dodged the draft, period....lied to avoid the service, used political connections to avoid doing his duty at all...and actively protested against his country on foreign soil....
and him, they are proud of....
while displaying contempt for those that served in the National Guard....
HYPOCRITES? you bet your ass....

 

[maineman]

maineman maineman is offline
Yellow Democrat

------
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayboyusmc View Post
It was legit. But is shows he couldn't even finish a nice tour in CONUS. Just a lot of little things that add up to define the man.

The papers were proved forged. The facts were never proven wrong.

idiot #1 speaks and
-----------
exactly. Bush gets a free pass for a cakewalk tour stateside and Kerry is castigated for getting a silver star in Vietnam. hypocrites.
__________________

idiot #2 agrees....
There were NO FACTS to prove wrong....there were accusations that could not be proven....neither idiot 1 or 2 can understand the difference....

Of course, no mention of their big hero, that just dodged the draft, period....lied to avoid the service, used political connections to avoid doing his duty at all...and actively protested against his country on foreign soil....
and him, they are proud of....
while displaying contempt for those that served in the National Guard....
HYPOCRITES? you bet your ass....

If the Clinton campaign had tried to portray him as a heroic patriot while denigrating the service of either George H.W. Bush or Bob Dole, I would have spoken up solidly against it.

As I have often said, the ONLY time I started looking into the heroic and patriotic military service of Dubya was when the republicans started denigrating the service of a man who won three medals for valor in a war he volunteered to fight in.

 

[rayboyusmc]

What a strange turn of events this thread has taken. Now we are arguing who's more important: officers or enlisted?

Neither. We both worked togther to accomplish the mission. As a 2 Lieutenant I was told to take care of my troops and they would take care of the mission and me.

I was fortunate to have some very good Gunny's help me learn what the real Corps was about and not what the books said.

As for my intelligence, retard, I could have gone if I wanted. I chose to remain enlisted and do a real job. (Even here, the right wing has got to take fukking sides and point fingers.. What bullshit. We all did a real job, including officers and enlisted. Don't let your political bent poison your service.)
QUOTE]

 

[Alpha1]

The Bush campaign never once denigrated Kerry or his service, actually quite the opposite is true.....Bush personally thanked Kerry for his service not once, not twice, but many times, publically .....
You might have a hard on for Bob Perry, the rich Republican that funded the Swiftboat org. and the members of that org.....but they are not "the Republicans" and they are not the "Bush campaign".....


Your problem is with these guys....not the Bush campaign....and denigrating the National Guard and/or those that served in the NG only shows you're a partisan asshole...
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
John Edwards: "If you have any questions about what John Kerry is made of, just spend 3 minutes with the men who served with him."

Al French: I served with John Kerry.

Bob Elder : I served with John Kerry.

George Elliott: John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam.

Al French: He is lying about his record.

Louis Letson: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.

Van O'Dell: John Kerry lied to get his bronze star...I know, I was there, I saw what happened.

Jack Chenoweth: His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day.

Admiral Hoffman: John Kerry has not been honest.

Adrian Lonsdale: And he lacks the capacity to lead.

Larry Thurlow: When he chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.

Bob Elder: John Kerry is no war hero.

Grant Hibbard: He betrayed all his shipmates...he lied before the Senate.

Shelton White: John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam.

Joe Ponder: He dishonored his country...he most certainly did.

Bob Hildreth: I served with John Kerry...

Bob Hildreth (off camera) : John Kerry cannot be trusted

 

[maineman]

The Bush campaign never once denigrated Kerry or his service, actually quite the opposite is true.....Bush personally thanked Kerry for his service not once, not twice, but many times, publically .....
You might have a hard on for Bob Perry, the rich Republican that funded the Swiftboat org. and the members of that org.....but they are not "the Republicans" and they are not the "Bush campaign".....


Your problem is with these guys....not the Bush campaign....and denigrating the National Guard and/or those that served in the NG only shows you're a partisan asshole...
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
John Edwards: "If you have any questions about what John Kerry is made of, just spend 3 minutes with the men who served with him."

Al French: I served with John Kerry.

Bob Elder : I served with John Kerry.

George Elliott: John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam.

Al French: He is lying about his record.

Louis Letson: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.

Van O'Dell: John Kerry lied to get his bronze star...I know, I was there, I saw what happened.

Jack Chenoweth: His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day.

Admiral Hoffman: John Kerry has not been honest.

Adrian Lonsdale: And he lacks the capacity to lead.

Larry Thurlow: When he chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.

Bob Elder: John Kerry is no war hero.

Grant Hibbard: He betrayed all his shipmates...he lied before the Senate.

Shelton White: John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam.

Joe Ponder: He dishonored his country...he most certainly did.

Bob Hildreth: I served with John Kerry...

Bob Hildreth (off camera) : John Kerry cannot be trusted

for those of us who HAVE served our country in the United States Navy, we know that the only people we really "served with" were the ones on the ships we sailed on. If there were another officer on some other destroyer tied up three piers down at the Norfolk Naval Station during the time that I was serving on a destroyer homeported in Norfolk, I would not say that I "served with him". Kerry's crew supports him and considers him to be a great and heroic leader. THEY served with him...those other assholes did not.
All of those assholes are liars...and Elliot and Thurlow are ESPECIALLY disgusting in that Elliot ranked Kerry NUMBER ONE amongst his peers in Coastal Group 11, and then went on to appear with Kerry a quarter of a century later during his Senate reelection campaign and sang his praises as a hero only to LIE for the SBVT ad...and Thurlow, who called Kerry a liar for claiming that he had been subjected to enemy fire for his first bronze star when Thurlow ALSO received a bronze star for that exact same encounter and his bronze star citation clearly states that the formation came under enemy fire.

Why am I not surprised you would post the quotes of liars?

and if you think that the Bush campaign could not have stopped that ad from running if they had really wanted to, you are high on crack.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If the Clinton campaign had tried to portray him as a heroic patriot while denigrating the service of either George H.W. Bush or Bob Dole, I would have spoken up solidly against it.

As I have often said, the ONLY time I started looking into the heroic and patriotic military service of Dubya was when the republicans started denigrating the service of a man who won three medals for valor in a war he volunteered to fight in.

Except the "republicans" didn't do it. His own fellow officers and enlisted sailors DID it. And nearly every one of them was involved. Unless it is now your contention that 99 percent of the Navy is Republican you haven't a claim to stand on.

And remind us how you felt about Moveon. Org and the other hit groups that claim democratic support? Ohh wait, I remember now you have stated over and over they are NOT the Democratic party nor its leaders. There is a word for what your claiming on those two points.

 

[Annie]

If the Clinton campaign had tried to portray him as a heroic patriot while denigrating the service of either George H.W. Bush or Bob Dole, I would have spoken up solidly against it.

As I have often said, the ONLY time I started looking into the heroic and patriotic military service of Dubya was when the republicans started denigrating the service of a man who won three medals for valor in a war he volunteered to fight in.

I'm curious, do you think Kerry was deserving of all those medals? Did he 'earn' them or were they given, for whatever reasons?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

What a strange turn of events this thread has taken. Now we are arguing who's more important: officers or enlisted?

Neither. We both worked togther to accomplish the mission. As a 2 Lieutenant I was told to take care of my troops and they would take care of the mission and me.

I was fortunate to have some very good Gunny's help me learn what the real Corps was about and not what the books said.

As for my intelligence, retard, I could have gone if I wanted. I chose to remain enlisted and do a real job. (Even here, the right wing has got to take fukking sides and point fingers.. What bullshit. We all did a real job, including officers and enlisted. Don't let your political bent poison your service.)
QUOTE]

Ahh yes just ignore what your fellow officer did to start the response, usual leftoid tactics. Maineman , not I , started the claim that somehow because I was not an officer that meant I did less and was not as smart his him cause he went to the Academy.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

For the record the Army offered to send me to the Prep school for West Point in boot camp, I turned them down. In the Guard I was offered the chance to become an Officer also, again I chose to join the Marine Corps instead. In the Corps I could have tested for the program to go to either the Academy or to Officer school, I turned both offers down.

It was not what I wanted to do. As a Sgt I could have become a Warrant Officer, again I declined to submit. I knew what I wanted and it was to be an enlisted Marine. My goal was to make 1st Sgt and possibly Sgt Maj. I didn't make it, I retired as a GySgt on a medical.