Some facts about "Church and State" and why the ACLU and liberals are wrong.

[JamesInFlorida]

yeah and personally I would agree with Franklin. Some of the state constitutions such as virginia specifically mention christianity though which is interesting.

That is interesting, did not know that.

It's way at the bottom in Section 16 but in short:

"Section 16. Free exercise of religion; no establishment of religion.

That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other. "

Basically, practice any religion you want but we as a State will practice Christian morals mutually.

Weird, because what is a "Christian moral"? There are different Christian sections, and many of them have beliefs and morals that are slightly different than the other.

I would agree that it means practice any religion you wish-but I don't think that means that ends at the classroom. By learning about one religion over another in a classroom situation-are you really letting the other practice what religion they want?



But if we're talking about the 1st amendment in the US constitution-no state constitution can cancel out the powers that it grants (or really restricts). It specifically restricts any state from establishing a religion-I think we can obviously agree upon that.

Does teaching one religion's preaching over another's in a public school establish a religion-I think that's the real question. Since public schools are run by the state, teaching one religion over another is the state establishes one religion as being superior, or at least more important to learn about over that of another. That is unconstitutional according to the US constitution.

As for the prohibit part of the amendment others have brought up-when you're in a school not all constitutional rights apply. Teachers aren't allowed to carry firearms of any kind in many schools, students aren't allowed to wear obscene clothing, and can get punished for obscene language. Those are obvious violations of 1st and 2nd.

 

[Liberty]

All I know is at the country's inception there was no State sponsored church like the church of england, however it was meant as a christian country regardless. *shrug*

 

[Listening]

All I know is at the country's inception there was no State sponsored church like the church of england, however it was meant as a christian country regardless. *shrug*

That isn't altogether true.

If you are talking about a state (as in federal) sponsored church...there wasn't one.

However, several of the states had state sponsored and state supported churches (often more than one) that existed long after the USC came into being. These were never challenged, but eventually were written out of the state constitutions. In some instances, everyone was required to pay taxes to support "the church of their choice".

This was one more area where states were supposed to be allowed to do as they please (think about what created the colonies to begin with).
]
Religion and the State Governments (Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, Library of Congress Exhibition)

The stupid doctrine of selective incorporation has been used as leverage to pretty much remove this power from the states.

I'd love to live in a state where we could fight over what we wanted or did not want in the public schools in terms of teachings or ciriculum.

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution explicitly forbids the federal government from enacting any law respecting a religious establishment, and thus forbids either designating an official church for the United States, or interfering with State and local official churches — which were common when the First Amendment was enacted. It did not prevent state governments from establishing official churches. Connecticut continued to do so until it replaced its colonial Charter with the Connecticut Constitution of 1818; Massachusetts retained an establishment of religion in general until 1833.[4] (The Massachusetts system required every man to belong to some church, and pay taxes towards it; while it was formally neutral between denominations, in practice the indifferent would be counted as belonging to the majority denomination, and in some cases religious minorities had trouble being recognized at all.[citation needed]) As of 2010[update], Article III of the Massachusetts constitution still provided, "... the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily."[5]

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And while I know it is from Wiki....it is something I have read in numerous places and the Wiki article has several citations.

The point being that, as Daniel Driesbach claims, the USC was to bind the federal government, not the state governments.

That the 14th amendment came along and was use incorrectly to finally "settle the issue" does not matter.

History clearly demonstrates that there was no ironclad separation of church and state after the USC was formed.

 

[Listening]

A bump for the ACLU (well in their case it is more like a *Smack*).

 

[clevergirl]

The facts are that the very first public schools were began by churches. In order to prevent Roman Catholic indoctrination in this mostly protestant nation, during the 19th century, laws were passed that forbade tax money to ever be used for "parochial" education. Dewey came along with his social progressive views and further put a wedge between religious education of any form and public coffers in the early 20th century.

I personally do not see a need to have prayer from any religion in public schools...then again I am against indoctrination of humanist values as well- "gay is okay". Could we just teach our children how to learn in addition to reading; writing; science; and maths?

Harvard, Yale and Princeton were founded as Seminaries FCOL. The reason they exist no longer as such, is due, to public money. Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.”

Now, as to vouchers and allowing parents to choose? I am all for that. If a parent chooses a religious school- that should be their prerogative. If they choose a strictly academic program-more power to them...and yes, if an alternative school that says "gay is okay" exists and parents want to send their kids there...go for it.

This attitude is what the Founders believed in...Freedom.

An intelligent and illuminating post! Thanks!

Thank you! I spear-headed an educational program that could be tailor fit to individual families and students. It still continues on, even though my kids and I no longer participate. The really cool thing about it is that it adapts to each new family's' needs. Very similar to what are known as charter programs.

 

[jgarden]

1. The US Constitution when dated includes the phrase: "In the year of our Lord"
2. The US Constitution does not say anything against prohibiting religion in politics anywhere.
3. Thomas Jefferson WHILE serving as President was the Super Intendent of the DC Schools and included Bible reading in the cirriculum(The same man that wrote the letter that first used the phrase "Church and State")
4. ALL State Constitutions in the preamble or somewhere within thank God at some point for our civil liberties and freedom, a REQUIREMENT for statehood signed into law by George Washington.
5. In 1983 the Senate DEMOCRATS passed a bill recognizing the year as the year of the Bible. Reagan signed it.

There's more examples but there's a few. The first amendment only prohibits the CREATION of a STATE RELIGION via a law.

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
- Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/thomas_jefferson.htm

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect."
—James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
--Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

http://www.dailypaul.com/35615/the-founding-fathers-christians-atheists-agnostics-or-deists

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; ....."

- Signed and radified by John Adams, The Treaty of Tripoli Article 11

http://unreasonablefaith.com/forum/topic/our-founding-fathers

On page 82 of the same book, Boller includes a quote from a Presbyterian minister, Arthur B. Bradford, who was an associate of Ashbel Green another Presbyterian minister who had known George Washington personally. Bradford wrote that Green, "often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist."

http://www.deism.com/washington.htm

"Liberty" appears oblivious to the fact that many of the most influential Founding Fathers, including those who helped create the US Constitution, were deists, agnostics and atheists.

The ACLU and liberals are right.