Solutions to Israel/Palestine

[High_Gravity]

The UN is not capable of running part of Jerusalem. That's just an invitation to mass slaughter. Completely unrealistic.

I disagree - the geography of Jerusalem is actually an advantage here.

Again, I'm not sure how well you know the city, but East Jerusalem faces Temple Mount, allowing control of access through Lion's Gate and Herod's Gate.

Israelis could enter the Old City via King Davids Gate and Dung Gate, and tourists via Damascus Gate.

All it would need is a wall between Herod's Gate and Damascus Gate, extending around the old Arab bus station to divide Palestinian Jerusalem from the UN Zone.

Israelis would lose access to the Mount of Olives, but that's about it.

Again: it is very easy to rubbish ideas - not so easy to suggest more viable plans.

Again, I presented my alternative.

And who would be the UN military dictator in Old Jerusalem? How many thousands of troops would you station there? How many terrorist would he be allowed to execute? This is completely unrealistic.

The UN will stand there and watch like they did in Rwanda and are doing in Syria.

 

[Artevelde]

If Israel was really put in charge of their own nation, they would have more than just the Palestinians to deal with. So that isn't what is happening now. Israel is protected by US military might and diplomatic backing. Cut them loose, let the middle east have their big fight and when the dust settles, well, the dust will settle.

Most Middle Eastern Militaries are a joke, if I were a betting man I would put my money on Israel, they have the best equipment, better training, better over all Military than Syria, Egypt, Lebanon or anyone there.

True. The net result of such an outcome would simply be the expulsion of the vast majority of Palestinians from the West Bank.

 

[Saigon]

If Israel was really put in charge of their own nation, they would have more than just the Palestinians to deal with. So that isn't what is happening now. Israel is protected by US military might and diplomatic backing. Cut them loose, let the middle east have their big fight and when the dust settles, well, the dust will settle.

Most Middle Eastern Militaries are a joke, if I were a betting man I would put my money on Israel, they have the best equipment, better training, better over all Military than Syria, Egypt, Lebanon or anyone there.

Agreed. There is no question that in a war, Israel would win.

The good news is - a lot of people in countries like Syria know this as well.

 

[Saigon]

The UN will stand there and watch like they did in Rwanda and are doing in Syria.

The UN have done excellent work in the Golan Heights and Lebanon for 30 years, because they have a clear mandate and good commanders.

It's easy to bag the UN, but also easy to forget how successful many of their operations are.

In Rwanda the UN troops were not the problem, they were well trained and exceptionally well led by Romeo Dallaire - the problem was the UN Security Council and the lack of a clear mandate to intervene.

 

[High_Gravity]

If Israel was really put in charge of their own nation, they would have more than just the Palestinians to deal with. So that isn't what is happening now. Israel is protected by US military might and diplomatic backing. Cut them loose, let the middle east have their big fight and when the dust settles, well, the dust will settle.

Most Middle Eastern Militaries are a joke, if I were a betting man I would put my money on Israel, they have the best equipment, better training, better over all Military than Syria, Egypt, Lebanon or anyone there.

True. The net result of such an outcome would simply be the expulsion of the vast majority of Palestinians from the West Bank.

Yup and the situation for Palestinians would be 100 times worse.

 

[Saigon]

The most obvious solution is that of a Palestinian state created on parts of the West Bank and in Gaza. The borders around Gaza are well-defined. As for the West Bank, a territorial compromise would be necessary, bringing certain of the largest Israeli settlements that are close to the 1967 line into Israel; dismantling the other Israeli settlements; and possibly providing some territorial compensation to the Palestians along other sections of the 1967 line. The Palestinian territory on the West Bank must be contiguous. Jerusalem remains within Israel, but certain outer parts that are heavily Palestinian populated can be added to the Palestinian territory. An international convention guarantees access for all major faiths to their holy sites and the protection of those sites.
The new Palestinian state has a domestic security force and is committed to destroying Hamas and all terrorist groups. For the rest the Palestinian territories are demilitarised and Palestine maintains no regular Army with heavy weapons and no Air Force.
All Arab countries recognize both Israel and Palestine. Palestine explicitely renounces all and any claims to Israeli territory and also the right of return (except perhaps for people whowere actually themselves expelled in 1948 - no descendants - and who swear loyalty to Israel and renounce Palestinian citizenship).

The problem with this obvious solution is that the new Palestinian state is unlikely to be a viable entity, economically or politically. It will quickly descend into chaos resulting in a renewed Israeli occupation.

The optimum solution therefore would be for the Palestinian state, as outlined above, not to be a fully independent state but to form a confederation with Jordan, with a large measure of autonomy. This would provide stability, both economically and politically and security for the Palestinian state. Unfortunately, the Jordanians are unlikely to go along with this for fear of destabilizing Jordan.

A Third way out is simply for Israel to declare a unilateral settlement, withdraw behind the wall, and leave Palestine to its fate. But this would quickly result in renewed war I'm afraid.

I missed this post earlier.

Not bad ideas, although I don't think any confederation between Palestine and Jordan is likely. I agree it would be more economically viable, but I don't think it is politically in the interests of either state.

Leaving Temple Mount out of Palestine would kill your plan stone dead from day one. No Palestinian would accept that - and neither could I.

 

[High_Gravity]

If Israel was really put in charge of their own nation, they would have more than just the Palestinians to deal with. So that isn't what is happening now. Israel is protected by US military might and diplomatic backing. Cut them loose, let the middle east have their big fight and when the dust settles, well, the dust will settle.

Most Middle Eastern Militaries are a joke, if I were a betting man I would put my money on Israel, they have the best equipment, better training, better over all Military than Syria, Egypt, Lebanon or anyone there.

Agreed. There is no question that in a war, Israel would win.

The good news is - a lot of people in countries like Syria know this as well.

They do thats why they don't bother with open war with the Israelis.

 

[Artevelde]

The UN will stand there and watch like they did in Rwanda and are doing in Syria.

The UN have done excellent work in the Golan Heights and Lebanon for 30 years, because they have a clear mandate and good commanders.

It's easy to bag the UN, but also easy to forget how successful many of their operations are.

In Rwanda the UN troops were not the problem, they were well trained and exceptionally well led by Romeo Dallaire - the problem was the UN Security Council and the lack of a clear mandate to intervene.

I am sorry, but I am pretty outraged by your remark regarding Rwanda. Romeo Dallaire is a coward who deserves to be in prison for gross negligence and deriliction of duty resulting in the slaughter of UN troops under his command.

As for Lebanon, the UN troops there have proved completely ineffective in safeguarding peace.

 

[Artevelde]

The most obvious solution is that of a Palestinian state created on parts of the West Bank and in Gaza. The borders around Gaza are well-defined. As for the West Bank, a territorial compromise would be necessary, bringing certain of the largest Israeli settlements that are close to the 1967 line into Israel; dismantling the other Israeli settlements; and possibly providing some territorial compensation to the Palestians along other sections of the 1967 line. The Palestinian territory on the West Bank must be contiguous. Jerusalem remains within Israel, but certain outer parts that are heavily Palestinian populated can be added to the Palestinian territory. An international convention guarantees access for all major faiths to their holy sites and the protection of those sites.
The new Palestinian state has a domestic security force and is committed to destroying Hamas and all terrorist groups. For the rest the Palestinian territories are demilitarised and Palestine maintains no regular Army with heavy weapons and no Air Force.
All Arab countries recognize both Israel and Palestine. Palestine explicitely renounces all and any claims to Israeli territory and also the right of return (except perhaps for people whowere actually themselves expelled in 1948 - no descendants - and who swear loyalty to Israel and renounce Palestinian citizenship).

The problem with this obvious solution is that the new Palestinian state is unlikely to be a viable entity, economically or politically. It will quickly descend into chaos resulting in a renewed Israeli occupation.

The optimum solution therefore would be for the Palestinian state, as outlined above, not to be a fully independent state but to form a confederation with Jordan, with a large measure of autonomy. This would provide stability, both economically and politically and security for the Palestinian state. Unfortunately, the Jordanians are unlikely to go along with this for fear of destabilizing Jordan.

A Third way out is simply for Israel to declare a unilateral settlement, withdraw behind the wall, and leave Palestine to its fate. But this would quickly result in renewed war I'm afraid.

I missed this post earlier.

Not bad ideas, although I don't think any confederation between Palestine and Jordan is likely. I agree it would be more economically viable, but I don't think it is politically in the interests of either state.

Leaving Temple Mount out of Palestine would kill your plan stone dead from day one. No Palestinian would accept that - and neither could I.

I agree that it is unlikely that the Jordanians would go for the optimum-solution of a confederation.

As for your comment regarding the Temple Mount: if that remains the Palestinian position the outcome is very simple: there will never be a Palestinian state and the Palestinians will continue to lose more and more.

 

[High_Gravity]

The UN will stand there and watch like they did in Rwanda and are doing in Syria.

The UN have done excellent work in the Golan Heights and Lebanon for 30 years, because they have a clear mandate and good commanders.

It's easy to bag the UN, but also easy to forget how successful many of their operations are.

In Rwanda the UN troops were not the problem, they were well trained and exceptionally well led by Romeo Dallaire - the problem was the UN Security Council and the lack of a clear mandate to intervene.

I am sorry, but I am pretty outraged by your remark regarding Rwanda. Romeo Dallaire is a coward who deserves to be in prison for gross negligence and deriliction of duty resulting in the slaughter of UN troops under his command.

As for Lebanon, the UN troops there have proved completely ineffective in safeguarding peace.

As far as Lebanon goes the strongest armed force on the ground running the show in that country is Hezbollah, not the UN or the Lebanese Military and they both know it.

 

[Saigon]

I am sorry, but I am pretty outraged by your remark regarding Rwanda. Romeo Dallaire is a coward who deserves to be in prison for gross negligence and deriliction of duty resulting in the slaughter of UN troops under his command.
.

Hmm....I'm going to suggest it might be worth reading more on this.

I've published quite a lot on Rwanda, and have a fairly strong background on the conflict. Strong enough to have visited the graves of the Belgian soldiers, as it happens.

Calling him a coward makes no sense to me at all...it just isn't supported by facts.

 

[Saigon]

As for your comment regarding the Temple Mount: if that remains the Palestinian position the outcome is very simple: there will never be a Palestinian state and the Palestinians will continue to lose more and more.

I don't see the point in knee-jerk simplifications - and that really is knee-jerk.

Would you say the world would accept placing the Wailing Wall in Palestine?

If not - then why would you place the third holiest shrine in Islam within Israel?

Particularly when there is direct access to it through St Stephens Gate?

 

[Artevelde]

I am sorry, but I am pretty outraged by your remark regarding Rwanda. Romeo Dallaire is a coward who deserves to be in prison for gross negligence and deriliction of duty resulting in the slaughter of UN troops under his command.
.

Hmm....I'm going to suggest it might be worth reading more on this.

I've published quite a lot on Rwanda, and have a fairly strong background on the conflict. Strong enough to have visited the graves of the Belgian soldiers, as it happens.

Calling him a coward makes no sense to me at all...it just isn't supported by facts.

He was even too much of a coward to come and testify about this in Belgium. He cowardly sacrificed these soldiers and let them die. He should be stripped of his rank and in prison for the rest of his life.

 

[Artevelde]

As for your comment regarding the Temple Mount: if that remains the Palestinian position the outcome is very simple: there will never be a Palestinian state and the Palestinians will continue to lose more and more.

I don't see the point in knee-jerk simplifications - and that really is knee-jerk.

Would you say the world would accept placing the Wailing Wall in Palestine?

If not - then why would you place the third holiest shrine in Islam within Israel?

Particularly when there is direct access to it through St Stephens Gate?

Jerusalem isn't the third holiest place to Jews, it's the first.

This is the price the Palestinians have to pay foe their refusal to make peace in the 20 years from 1948 to 1967 and since. If they want to continue to refuse peace the price will be much higher later on, until they will have absolutely nothing left.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

No, he didn't cowardly do anything.

I don't mean to be rude, but you simply don't know enough of the details of their deaths to say that. I would be happy to recommend 5 or 6 books which do cover those events in detail if you like...Dallaire's own book amongst them.

 

[Saigon]

Jerusalem isn't the third holiest place to Jews, it's the first.

This is the price the Palestinians have to pay foe their refusal to make peace in the 20 years from 1948 to 1967 and since. If they want to continue to refuse peace the price will be much higher later on, until they will have absolutely nothing left.

Arte -

With the best will in the world, man, placing the third holiest shrine in Islam within Israel makes no sense at all. It's a non starter.

The Wailing Wall must be availble for Jews; Temple Mount must be available for Muslims.

Luckily, both are possible. It needn't be a major problem.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

No, he didn't cowardly do anything.

I don't mean to be rude, but you simply don't know enough of the details of their deaths to say that. I would be happy to recommend 5 or 6 books which do cover those events in detail if you like...Dallaire's own book amongst them.

Apparently you are ignorant or stupid. I know a lot of the details and have knowledge of a lot more documents on this than you. And yes, I know the coward tried to exonerate himself with his book. It is simply a lie.

Dallaire is not fit to wear a uniform.

 

[Artevelde]

Jerusalem isn't the third holiest place to Jews, it's the first.

This is the price the Palestinians have to pay foe their refusal to make peace in the 20 years from 1948 to 1967 and since. If they want to continue to refuse peace the price will be much higher later on, until they will have absolutely nothing left.

Arte -

With the best will in the world, man, placing the third holiest shrine in Islam within Israel makes no sense at all. It's a non starter.

The Wailing Wall must be availble for Jews; Temple Mount must be available for Muslims.

Luckily, both are possible. It needn't be a major problem.

As I said, access should be guaranteed. But the issue of giving up the Temple Mount is simply ludicrous. It's precisely this sort of attitude that prevents the Palestinians from making peace, resulting in them losing more and more.

 

[Saigon]

Apparently you are ignorant or stupid. I know a lot of the details and have knowledge of a lot more documents on this than you. And yes, I know the coward tried to exonerate himself with his book. It is simply a lie.

Dallaire is not fit to wear a uniform.

Ha! Really?

Well put it this way, Arte, I've been to Rwanda twice in the past three years, and I don't recall seeing you there.

The story I wrote about the conflict was published around the world and read by 4 million people - I'd be happy to email it to you.

 

[Artevelde]

Apparently you are ignorant or stupid. I know a lot of the details and have knowledge of a lot more documents on this than you. And yes, I know the coward tried to exonerate himself with his book. It is simply a lie.

Dallaire is not fit to wear a uniform.

Ha! Really?

Well put it this way, Arte, I've been to Rwanda twice in the past three years, and I don't recall seeing you there.

The story I wrote about the conflict was published around the world and read by 4 million people - I'd be happy to email it to you.

Have you ever interviewed any of the Belgian troops? Have you ever examined any of the documents from the Belgian parliamentary enquiry?

You apparently are indeed stupid.