Solar power: why hasn't this improved

[flacaltenn]

I think that the best use of solar power can be made if the collectors are used as stand alone units which charge up batteries which in turn can be inverted to a suitable appliance running voltage and the enrgy from the batteries can also be used to directly power low voltage/low energy lighting such as LED lamps.
I also think that people need to concentate more on energy saving as well as how the energy is produced, a little bit of research does go a long way. Although I do not have solar panels for electrical generation I do use solar tubes for heating water/central heating and a couple of small wind turbines for almost all my electrical needs, this is only posible through use of low energy lighting and careful insulation etc. I understand that wind turbines as a stand alone setup would not suit everyone but solar panels do offer a great opportunity to rid yourself from the rat race of energy supply companies when used as stand alone independant units, the idea of feeding into a grid is a bit pointless imo plus there will be no energy loss as a stand alone generating system.
When we get power failures here in Ireland which is quite often I still have my lights on whereas most others are sitting in darkness waiting for their freezers to thaw out, this is another advantage of a stand alone system.

If EVERYONE (or a large percentage) choose to have a 1/2 ton of batteries in their basement -- that wouldn't be very ecologically sound would it? Depending on charge/discharge rates and numbers of cycles they have a limited lifetime. That's a HUGE toxic recycling wastestream every 6 to 8 yrs (at best). A supermarket would require a trailer load of toxic batteries just to make it thru the night. Not to mention that OVERSIZING the solar PV installation to scavenge excess during the day is MUCH more expensive than overscaling for wind.

And don't feed me this malarkey about the reliability of wind in Ireland. Maybe in the pub. The Danes also have a favorable wind pattern and here's what their daily production charts look like..

 

[asterism]

I think that the best use of solar power can be made if the collectors are used as stand alone units which charge up batteries which in turn can be inverted to a suitable appliance running voltage and the enrgy from the batteries can also be used to directly power low voltage/low energy lighting such as LED lamps.
I also think that people need to concentate more on energy saving as well as how the energy is produced, a little bit of research does go a long way. Although I do not have solar panels for electrical generation I do use solar tubes for heating water/central heating and a couple of small wind turbines for almost all my electrical needs, this is only posible through use of low energy lighting and careful insulation etc. I understand that wind turbines as a stand alone setup would not suit everyone but solar panels do offer a great opportunity to rid yourself from the rat race of energy supply companies when used as stand alone independant units, the idea of feeding into a grid is a bit pointless imo plus there will be no energy loss as a stand alone generating system.
When we get power failures here in Ireland which is quite often I still have my lights on whereas most others are sitting in darkness waiting for their freezers to thaw out, this is another advantage of a stand alone system.

Battery storage is grossly inefficent based on the mateirals required for creation, and the operational life of said batteries. The size of batteries required to run your house overnight would probably fill most of your basement at the current level of technology.

My 48 battery system all of which are recovered from a scrapyard cost very little and will run my home for weeks without any charging from the wind turbines, the batteries range between 60 and 100 AH each and run 12/24 volt led lighting directly with my entire lighting consumption using only 200 watts when everything is switched on. Other items such as fridge, t.v and computer etc are all low consumption items run via 2 x 1kw invertors which run at nowhere near their capacity, the only item I use of the mains supply are a kettle and washing machine. I have never run out of capacity yet since I live in a reliable wind area.

What's the average summer temperature there in the summer and winter, how do you heat and cool your house?

48 car batteries? Are you sure you aren't talking about deep cycle batteries? Standard car batteries get damaged if you drain the current completely. How do you manage that?

DIY Battery Bank for Home Solar Power System | Deep Cycle Battery | DIY Solar Homes Blog

 

[asterism]

If they could increase the storage efficency and the cost of production it would become viable, it just isnt so right now.

True. Operative words there being "if" and "could," and that's why solar and wind aren't capable of being anything but niche production means in the forseeable future. No government crony capitalism scheme of any size will solve that problem.

It requires research, i agree. The problem is that government seems to want to skip the development phase and go right into engineering phase, with technology that isn't adequate yet. The research needed is in the materials field, we know the theories, what we don't have is the equipment to do it yet.

I agree. The sad part is that the "experts" don't care or aren't really experts.

 

[mawlarky]

Battery storage is grossly inefficent based on the mateirals required for creation, and the operational life of said batteries. The size of batteries required to run your house overnight would probably fill most of your basement at the current level of technology.

My 48 battery system all of which are recovered from a scrapyard cost very little and will run my home for weeks without any charging from the wind turbines, the batteries range between 60 and 100 AH each and run 12/24 volt led lighting directly with my entire lighting consumption using only 200 watts when everything is switched on. Other items such as fridge, t.v and computer etc are all low consumption items run via 2 x 1kw invertors which run at nowhere near their capacity, the only item I use of the mains supply are a kettle and washing machine. I have never run out of capacity yet since I live in a reliable wind area.

What's the average summer temperature there in the summer and winter, how do you heat and cool your house?

48 car batteries? Are you sure you aren't talking about deep cycle batteries? Standard car batteries get damaged if you drain the current completely. How do you manage that?

DIY Battery Bank for Home Solar Power System | Deep Cycle Battery | DIY Solar Homes Blog

Yes car batteries, they are rarely not getting charged since I have a reliable wind scource and I have never fully discharged the batteries which cost 10 gbp tested each. The summer temp would rarely exceed 25 celcius so no cooling is needed, my water is heated via 2 sets of solar tubes (thermomax) and a homemade solar panel in the summer and also preheats a wood burning stove for central heating in the winter which rarely drops below -3 c for more than a week though last year we had a exceptionally cold December(-10). My heating costs are zero with the exception of fuel used for transporting wood from to and from the crusher.
I have no real option but to be independant since heating oil is around 950 gbp per 1200 litres, gas and coal are crazy prices with coal being around 20 gbp per 50kg bag and petrol being around 6 gbp(9.50 dollars) per gallon.

 

[asterism]

My 48 battery system all of which are recovered from a scrapyard cost very little and will run my home for weeks without any charging from the wind turbines, the batteries range between 60 and 100 AH each and run 12/24 volt led lighting directly with my entire lighting consumption using only 200 watts when everything is switched on. Other items such as fridge, t.v and computer etc are all low consumption items run via 2 x 1kw invertors which run at nowhere near their capacity, the only item I use of the mains supply are a kettle and washing machine. I have never run out of capacity yet since I live in a reliable wind area.

What's the average summer temperature there in the summer and winter, how do you heat and cool your house?

48 car batteries? Are you sure you aren't talking about deep cycle batteries? Standard car batteries get damaged if you drain the current completely. How do you manage that?

DIY Battery Bank for Home Solar Power System | Deep Cycle Battery | DIY Solar Homes Blog

Yes car batteries, they are rarely not getting charged since I have a reliable wind scource and I have never fully discharged the batteries which cost 10 gbp tested each. The summer temp would rarely exceed 25 celcius so no cooling is needed, my water is heated via 2 sets of solar tubes (thermomax) and a homemade solar panel in the summer and also preheats a wood burning stove for central heating in the winter which rarely drops below -3 c for more than a week though last year we had a exceptionally cold December(-10). My heating costs are zero with the exception of fuel used for transporting wood from to and from the crusher.
I have no real option but to be independant since heating oil is around 950 gbp per 1200 litres, gas and coal are crazy prices with coal being around 20 gbp per 50kg bag and petrol being around 6 gbp(9.50 dollars) per gallon.

I'm glad your solution works for you and I applaud your ingenuity. However, it won't work for me at all. I'd need all 48 batteries just to power my air conditioner.

 

[mawlarky]

What's the average summer temperature there in the summer and winter, how do you heat and cool your house?

48 car batteries? Are you sure you aren't talking about deep cycle batteries? Standard car batteries get damaged if you drain the current completely. How do you manage that?

DIY Battery Bank for Home Solar Power System | Deep Cycle Battery | DIY Solar Homes Blog

Yes car batteries, they are rarely not getting charged since I have a reliable wind scource and I have never fully discharged the batteries which cost 10 gbp tested each. The summer temp would rarely exceed 25 celcius so no cooling is needed, my water is heated via 2 sets of solar tubes (thermomax) and a homemade solar panel in the summer and also preheats a wood burning stove for central heating in the winter which rarely drops below -3 c for more than a week though last year we had a exceptionally cold December(-10). My heating costs are zero with the exception of fuel used for transporting wood from to and from the crusher.
I have no real option but to be independant since heating oil is around 950 gbp per 1200 litres, gas and coal are crazy prices with coal being around 20 gbp per 50kg bag and petrol being around 6 gbp(9.50 dollars) per gallon.

I'm glad your solution works for you and I applaud your ingenuity. However, it won't work for me at all. I'd need all 48 batteries just to power my air conditioner.

Thank you, I appreciate your situation and geographical location but perhaps you need to find an alternative to your current air conditioning unit, there has to be an alternative and much simplier option as opposed to an of the shelf unit, for example my wind turbines used to be generators of a ww2 Sunderland flying boat, there are always options and might I suggest your high temperatures would idealy suit a stirling cycle engine which could be used for cooling as well as generating sparks.

 

[saveliberty]

Thing is wind and solar have not become viable sources of power for most people. As the OP implies correctly, little has changed in the last 40 years on that point.

 

[Bill Angel]

I remember them talking about this and it even getting a little "trendy" in the 70s. 30-40+ yrs later and it's still a fringe source of power at most. What the hell? There's this ENORMOUS source of power for billions of years to come and we haven't figured out how to make this cost-effective yet? ??

It has less to do with efficency than to do with storage issues. power from fossil fuels is easy to store. you keep your coal/oil/gas ready to use, and burn it when you need it. Solar, like wind is more "here now, gone for a while, here again, WHOOPS! gone again!) and our power grid wasn't really designed for it.

The materials have become cheaper, and the efficienies better, but on a large scale the intermittent and storage issues are still a problem, and on small scale, the equipment needed to safely tie into the grid for when you need to draw extra power is still expsensive.

The needed improvements are in grid regulation, and two way power transmission.

It would be an improvement if homeowners (and businesses) could install solar collectors on their property sufficient to power just their air conditioning. The demands to power air conditioning can put a peak load requirement on the power grid that is difficult for the power companies to handle. See: Consumer advocates call for review of BGE program

So power companies do have an incentive to encourage electricity users to install solar energy collectors that would help to decrease the peak energy load associated with cooling buildings on hot days. They electricity providers could provide substantial financial incentives to consumers to install such solar devices. But such solar air conditioning need not involve solar cells producing electricity which is then used to power a conventional air conditioning system. See Solar air conditioning

 

[Middleoftheroad]

We know how to approach the theoretical max efficiencies for solar PV design. We knew that YEARS ago. A panel built from Gallium Arsenide vs silicon crystal would get us to within 20% or so of the physics. But that would mean TONS of arsenic and a doubling of cost versus growing silicon crystal. Sometimes -- the theoretical limit doesn't yield a product.

The issue of inefficiency is more difficult to overcome. Even with panel efficiencies climbing (slowly now compared with 10 years ago), the installation math for a daytime peaking only system has to be rated almost twice as neccessary to guarantee a minimum power requirement. That gets you thru weather related difficulties such as clouds, preciptn, and sun angle thru-out the year and efficiencies related to converting DC power from the panels to AC for the home wiring and selling back to the grid.

So you BUY more panel than you end up using.. And "off-grid" installations are a whole 'nother animal, requiring tons of battery storage and the eco implications of that. A "off-grid" supermarket would require a tractor trailer full of battery storage to make it thru the night and an installation "overdesign" by a factor of almost three.

The grid load in California at 10PM in the summer is 80% of the load at 1PM. That means that PV solar could provide a MAX of 20% of daytime peaks. That's why you see the mandates for 20% renewables by 2020 and all that nonsense. You cannot turn off nat gas, coal, nuclear plants like a light switch. So there is duplication of spending for the MAIN sources of power. Would we reach 20%? Not likely because of geography, grid design, ect...

So you're right. It's time to put up or STFU.. Government should NEVER be subsidizing run of the mill stuff that's already designed. It actually stifles the perfection of tech, because the subsidy warps price to prefer larger markets at the bottom price. If they want to play market makers, they should only fund R&D for increased performance, or new technology. And the solar market NOW is anything but new technology.

I challenge the bold part above, link? Second off, 1PM is not peak time, that is usually considered to be between 4-6pm. And third how do you figure that this even concludes that you could only use 20% during peak? Comparing using solar during the day vs not being able to use it at night makes no sense. Theoretically California could use all their day time electricity through solar panels, and switch to other uses at night.

The factoid came from daily charts that I watched in Cal to predict brown-outs at my company. Specifically from the CA Indep Sys Oper (CALISO), the bozos tasked with waking up each morning and trying to find power a state that OUTLAWED long term contracts. Anyway.. You can view the hourly Load management at

California ISO - Todays Outlook

Be aware that this IS NOT peak summer, it IS a weekend, and NOT that typical summer day that I described. Depending on when you view it will give different results. I HAD to study it for years to protect one of clients from losing experimental data. My observations ARE correct for MOST summer days/nights in Cal. Although I did leave out the WORKDAY qualifier which was what I was most concerned with in the 3rd world of Cal Silicon Valley.

PEAK SUMMER LOADS are the "best case design" for any scenario involving solar when considering the swing from day to night.. And 10PM is the "evening peak" in most all load charts. Look it up..



REALLY? the ENTIRE country? Folks in the NorthEast will be very employed sweeping snow loads off panels won't they? Even tho the installed capacity would have to rated at more than TWICE the average PEAK SUMMER LOADS to guarantee that promise due to weather variations and sun angles? And that you'd be shedding MORE than 1/2 of that produced capacity during the peak summer to waste?

You need to be careful with naive scenario pronouncements such as this that have little connection to hour by hour, month by month variations in demand. But such is the "religious fervor" of the addicted..

Supplementing is with wind power, that can run during the day and through part of the night, and finally, since neither of these store electricity, using hydro electric to provide for power at night, and in case of any shortfalls in solar (clouds) and wind (no wind), since hydro electric stores electricity very very well (all the water behind the dam is potential energy that can be used at any time).

Left out of this "analysis" is the energy and inefficiencies associated with PUMPING that water that requires a HUGE over capacity of wind/solar to run the "storage". Again causing severe economic issues with land usage to site those generators, provide basins for the storage and all the enviro consequences associated with that. Doesn't work in Kansas or much of the flatlands too well either. Actual engineering considerations for where and how frequent these opportunities would be are staggering sober -- compared to your raw enthusiasm..

The real reason that they said 20% by 2020 is simply cost. To switch the entire country, the upfront cost would be in the hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars. Sort of like building every power plant in the country all at once. Then you add in that tens of thousands of power plant workers would be laid off in the period of time, and the idea is just not good. Basically what that 20% figure represents is, all new sources of energy should be green, that way no one gets laid off

Bull -- the percentages are based on actual math science using the RELIABILITY, load cycle demands and opportunities to propose a mix that actually works -- NOT COST. When trying to balance wind/solar with the back-up MAIN power generators that must stand idle waiting to be used (nat gas, nuclear, coal, hydro, ect.)

Speaking of wind -- take a gander at Figure V-F in the CALISO report at:

http://www.caiso.com/Documents/2005SummerAssessmentReport.pdf

Wind only available on 4 of the 10 peak summer 2004 days. It only exceeded 50% of AVERAGE capacity on only 2 of 10 peak days.. That's AVERAGE -- not even peak capacity.

That's a LOT of jobs just managing the REAL generators that have to be jerked around to make wind power look useful..

You cannot melt the grid down for 2 hours a day for renewables and switch the other generators on/off like light bulbs..

So if you have articles pretending to claim this is solved.. By all means please share.

World can be powered by alternative energy, using today's technology, in 20-40 years, experts say

 

[flacaltenn]

unique Drivel design

One of the funniest Troll Dumps I've ever seen! Everyone's a green hero nowadays I guess.