Sodom and Gomorrah

[MarcATL]

The perspective it's intended in is to watch your own mind, not be looking for sins in others.

Amen!

Any other Bible texts that you like that you may like to share?

 

[koshergrl]

Well I guess we'll have to make this convo vulgar.


Cuz I'm not seeing how a dude can get it up if he's not turned on, drunk or not, so how can a man be raped and get a girl pregnant unless he wants to bang his daughters?

Question: Have you ever gone out to a bar and taken home someone who you'd find repulsive if you weren't drunk, to wake up the next morning and come up with every and any excuse to get the hell out of there and never call back?

Yes........working as a bartender at a biker bar, I've seen it go both ways, some girls get drunk and go home with some dude they'd never normally even look at, and some dudes go home with some of the ugliest chicks, just because they got drunk.

You've never hung out in bars much, have you?

Yeah I've heard of that happening.

Never heard of a dad getting drunk and waking up next to his daughter.

Mistakenly thinking someone is good looking and thinking it's sexy to bang your daughter are in 2 different hemispheres let alone ball parks.

Gosh, I guess if you've never heard of it, it's never happened!

I HAVE heard of it happening, more than once. Of course, I have worked with sex offenders..and you'd be surprised how many of them are sad alcoholics who are appalled by their drunken behavior, and who in fact have ended up as sex offenders because the way they acted when they were blacked out was absolutely different from the way they acted sober.

So, to recap...just because it's not a part of YOUR reality doesn't mean it has never happened. And please share that with Dragon...

 

[JoeB131]

Question: Have you ever gone out to a bar and taken home someone who you'd find repulsive if you weren't drunk, to wake up the next morning and come up with every and any excuse to get the hell out of there and never call back?

Yes........working as a bartender at a biker bar, I've seen it go both ways, some girls get drunk and go home with some dude they'd never normally even look at, and some dudes go home with some of the ugliest chicks, just because they got drunk.

You've never hung out in bars much, have you?

Yeah I've heard of that happening.

Never heard of a dad getting drunk and waking up next to his daughter.

Mistakenly thinking someone is good looking and thinking it's sexy to bang your daughter are in 2 different hemispheres let alone ball parks.

Gosh, I guess if you've never heard of it, it's never happened!

I HAVE heard of it happening, more than once. Of course, I have worked with sex offenders..and you'd be surprised how many of them are sad alcoholics who are appalled by their drunken behavior, and who in fact have ended up as sex offenders because the way they acted when they were blacked out was absolutely different from the way they acted sober.

So, to recap...just because it's not a part of YOUR reality doesn't mean it has never happened. And please share that with Dragon...

You're right. They are pathetic horrible creatures...

And yet Lot was one of these pathetic creatures that God just HAD to save from burning alive while he incinerated every child, baby, puppy and kitten in Sodom.

And later in the Babble, er... Bible they call him "righteous".

 

[koshergrl]

You have a point?

 

[koshergrl]

Oh, I know what it is..

you are better equipped to determine the righteousness of a man who lived some thousands of years ago.

And because you know better, then there isn't a god.

Got it.

 

[jillian]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpCigLI4ryo]Elton John - Tower of Babel (Captain Fantastic 2 of 13) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, I know what it is..

you are better equipped to determine the righteousness of a man who lived some thousands of years ago.

And because you know better, then there isn't a god.

Got it.

Whether or not there is a God is besides the point. For all my atheist bluster, I don't truly know that there is or isn't. Honestly, the universe works so perfectly, you have to assume that there is a designer, if you will.

I just refuse to believe that designer is Yahweh, the sociopathic, petty, evil diety of the Hebrews.

All religion and mythology is mankind's futile attempts to understand the world. For that matter, so is science.

There are a bunch of silly rules that people who use the bible to justify homophobia ignore, because "that was for those times" or "That was the Old testement". But when it comes to their little pet hate, many , they go right to old Genesis 19! Yup, they was "Sodomites" and God blew them up.

Okay. What about the rest of the story?

 

[hortysir]

Getting back to Lot...he was a good man. He offered to give up his daughters to the crowd in order to save the strangers.....if he had just given them the strangers do you think his daughters would have been safe?

False dilemma. There may have been courses of action other than giving the mob EITHER the strangers OR his daughters to gang-rape, to wit:

1) Slip out the back way with all parties and escape.
2) Barricade the doors and windows, take up arms, and discourage the mob by violent means.

Either of those would have been a better moral choice than offering his daughters to be gang-raped.

Lot was not a good man. He was a monster. There is simply no other possible interpretation of what he attempted to do. He was a monster and an incestuous creep, the crowd consisted of monsters, his daughters were degenerates, and the angels were terrors who punished the innocent along with the guilty. There were no good people in this story art all.



I would say that we are presented with a spectrum of choices here. At one extreme is what the fundamentalists say: that the Bible is to be interpreted literally, and every word is true. At the other extreme is the position where the Bible has no authoritative power but is treated with respect and used selectively for inspiration.

The closer we come to the fundamentalist position, the more we run into problems like this passage, or the apparent approval by God of Joshua's genocide, or other truly appalling acts of the Children of Israel which met with divine approval. To say nothing of the passages that run counter to science, such as the miracle of the sun stopping in the sky. (This goes beyond such miracles as the fall of the walls of Jericho or Jesus' healing miracles, in that they require only the insertion of an unrecognized divine force, while the sun-stopping business would require that the sun actually move through the sky rather than the Earth around the sun.)

If we move far enough away from the fundamentalist position that this sort of thing no longer presents a problem, then we reach a point where the Bible has no significance other than sentimental attachment and a few passages that seem enlightened and wise -- of which there are indeed many.

But that's the dilemma. Either the Bible is of no authority, or it is a monstrosity.

You also have to take into account that there were several books that were never entered into the Bible. This was decided by convention in Constantinople, I believe. I know some people believe the Bible is THE WORD of God, but I don't think they realize how it's been changed and interpreted over the centuries. I don't think you can really understand it unless you can go back and read the original scrolls in their original languages. Historians are now saying that the stable Jesus was born in was a misinterpretation. That the word also meant "spare room". They also say that they may have stayed with the animals, on the bottom floor of the domicile...they lived differently back then.

Maybe so. I agree about the Council of Nicaea that established the canonical New Testament; however, it did not establish the canonical Old Testament as that had already been settled by Jewish religious authorities. All those details about the birth of Jesus, while they may be valid points, strike me as not very important. Does it really matter whether Jesus was born in a stable or in someone's spare room?

Any such linguistic concerns also run into the fact that all of the books of the New Testament were written in Greek, but Jesus actually taught in Aramaic, which is a very different language. So even the original Greek Gospels are only an approximation of what he taught and probably miss a lot.

I think it was pretty clear from your OP, that you simply wanted to get this "jab" in.

A poster already mentioned here that in order to understand the Bible you have to be in the Spirit...aka let the Spirit guide you.

Your simplified, worldly version sure makes sense to you and bolsters you're already unshakable pre-conceived notions about God and/or the Bible.

The Angels were messengers from Christ. Lot was well aware who they were. It wasn't so much that he wanted his daughters to get "raped" vs. he wanted to make sure protect God's messengers. Keep in mind sodomy's an abomination unto God.

The drunken thing speaks for itself, he wasn't in his right mind. The daughters thought wrong about their status in the world at the time. No where in Scripture is that condoned.

By the way, what would have been atheists argument if the Bible was chock full of perfect human beings that did God's work on earth? Think about and give an honest reply.

There is a reason why the Bible is chock full of sinners who were able to rise to a higher calling and serve God. Firstly, no human is perfect. The only perfect human that walked this earth is Christ. Secondly, it's to show that God changes hearts, minds...He changes people. He can take a group of gruffy, coarse, crude fisherman and turn then into pillars of Christ. He can take a little shepherd boy and make him a killer of giants and a destroyer of nations. God can do anything through us...if we let him. That theme is seen, witnessed and testified throughout the Bible. From Genesis right to Revelation.

Speaking of Revelation, the Bible speaks about the Catholic Church, which you used as an example of Church. No offense to good practicing Catholics, but the Bible refers to the Roman Catholic Church as the Apostate Church, for some of the very reasons you stated. The Law says not to take any graven images and the Catholics venerate the saints. Direct contradiction of God's Word. Many other examples to those who are interested in truth, but just to make that one point. Bottom line, the Catholic Church isn't the example to use when referring to Christianity and/or believers. Actually, no one is, we must all look to Christ, who is the only one who can save us from our sins and eternal death into eternal Life.

I think I better stop here. Good day sir.

Damn, dude!

I'm sorry I ever had you on ignore.



Testify, brother!!

 

[Dr.Drock]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

 

[hortysir]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

That'd be fine and all if the people of the time had no issue with this cuz of their backward views, but you people tell me I'm supposed to worship and devote my life and put above even my family a god who views this man as righteous.

Now the main reason I don't believe he's real is because of science, but if he were proven to be real I wouldn't be able to worship a being with a far worse sense of morality than probably most felons.

 

[hortysir]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

That'd be fine and all if the people of the time had no issue with this cuz of their backward views, but you people tell me I'm supposed to worship and devote my life and put above even my family a god who views this man as righteous.

Now the main reason I don't believe he's real is because of science, but if he were proven to be real I wouldn't be able to worship a being with a far worse sense of morality than probably most felons.

Do you so readily bemoan Adam and Eve?
They had no other option but to reproduce with family.
Same with Lot's daughters. They thought they were it.

And I would never tell you who are what you're "supposed to worship".
Any more than you should tell me how flawed my choice is.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

That'd be fine and all if the people of the time had no issue with this cuz of their backward views, but you people tell me I'm supposed to worship and devote my life and put above even my family a god who views this man as righteous.

Now the main reason I don't believe he's real is because of science, but if he were proven to be real I wouldn't be able to worship a being with a far worse sense of morality than probably most felons.

But when you look at an ancient culture through 21st century eyes, the tendency is to judge that culture by 21st century morality even as you can often fail to understand what the text is actually saying.

I can easily envision scholars a thousand years from now teachng their civilizatin about the primitive, backward, ignorant. and immoral notions of the people of the 21st Century. But the fact is, most of us do the best we can with what we know, and explain things in the context of what we can understand. Those ancient people were doing exactly the same. As will whatever civilization will exist two to four thousand years from now.

 

[Newby]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

He's either completely obtuse or just being a trool, my guess is a little of both.

 

[Newby]

Sure is disgusting how people downplay a man banging his 2 daughters, just shrug their shoulders and give him a pass by saying he was drunk.



Now I don't think people actually think this in the real world, if they knew a guy who banged his daughters after a night of drinking they'd think he was a sick fuck and rightfully so.



But since the Bible says a man who did this was righteous, they "have" to agree with it and get on message boards making it sound like a dad banging his daughters is no big whoop.

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

That'd be fine and all if the people of the time had no issue with this cuz of their backward views, but you people tell me I'm supposed to worship and devote my life and put above even my family a god who views this man as righteous.

Now the main reason I don't believe he's real is because of science, but if he were proven to be real I wouldn't be able to worship a being with a far worse sense of morality than probably most felons.

Who are 'you people'? I haven't seen anyone on here say any such thing to you. I really could care less what you do with your life, and I think the others posting on here would feel the same. Self absorbed much?

 

[Dr.Drock]

You're looking at ancient times through 21st century eyes.

That'd be fine and all if the people of the time had no issue with this cuz of their backward views, but you people tell me I'm supposed to worship and devote my life and put above even my family a god who views this man as righteous.

Now the main reason I don't believe he's real is because of science, but if he were proven to be real I wouldn't be able to worship a being with a far worse sense of morality than probably most felons.

Who are 'you people'? I haven't seen anyone on here say any such thing to you. I really could care less what you do with your life, and I think the others posting on here would feel the same. Self absorbed much?

If I had beliefs that led me to think non-believers were going to hell I would want everyone to believe as I did, seems like common human decency to me.

Seems we won't get anywhere with this issue. I think drunkenly banging your daughters is immoral in all cases, others don't, that pretty much ends the discussion.

 

[AmericanFirst]

You have a point?

His point is he is a blaspheming liar who has no clue what the Bible really says.

 

[koshergrl]

Oh, I know what it is..

you are better equipped to determine the righteousness of a man who lived some thousands of years ago.

And because you know better, then there isn't a god.

Got it.

Whether or not there is a God is besides the point. For all my atheist bluster, I don't truly know that there is or isn't. Honestly, the universe works so perfectly, you have to assume that there is a designer, if you will.

I just refuse to believe that designer is Yahweh, the sociopathic, petty, evil diety of the Hebrews.

All religion and mythology is mankind's futile attempts to understand the world. For that matter, so is science.

There are a bunch of silly rules that people who use the bible to justify homophobia ignore, because "that was for those times" or "That was the Old testement". But when it comes to their little pet hate, many , they go right to old Genesis 19! Yup, they was "Sodomites" and God blew them up.

Okay. What about the rest of the story?

He is only petty, sociopathic and evil because you are viewing him through your own sinful, myopic eyes. People often don't recognize genius because it doesn't jibe with what they understand..and in fact, many geniuses have been killed because of that.

God is holy, genius, and perfect. Of course he doesn't seem that way to you, because you aren't equipped to view the whole picture. But just because you are sinful, deceitful etc (as all men are..I'm not implying you're any worse than me) and unable to comprehend the workings of God's mind does not make him human and therefore sinful.

 

[Newby]

That'd be fine and all if the people of the time had no issue with this cuz of their backward views, but you people tell me I'm supposed to worship and devote my life and put above even my family a god who views this man as righteous.

Now the main reason I don't believe he's real is because of science, but if he were proven to be real I wouldn't be able to worship a being with a far worse sense of morality than probably most felons.

Who are 'you people'? I haven't seen anyone on here say any such thing to you. I really could care less what you do with your life, and I think the others posting on here would feel the same. Self absorbed much?

If I had beliefs that led me to think non-believers were going to hell I would want everyone to believe as I did, seems like common human decency to me.

Seems we won't get anywhere with this issue. I think drunkenly banging your daughters is immoral in all cases, others don't, that pretty much ends the discussion.

I haven't seen anyone else on here say that drunkenly banging your daughters is moral either, nor was anyone trying to imply that. But, don't let that keep you from getting into the ring with your carefully constructed strawman. Wouldn't surprise me if he beats your ass though.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Who are 'you people'? I haven't seen anyone on here say any such thing to you. I really could care less what you do with your life, and I think the others posting on here would feel the same. Self absorbed much?

If I had beliefs that led me to think non-believers were going to hell I would want everyone to believe as I did, seems like common human decency to me.

Seems we won't get anywhere with this issue. I think drunkenly banging your daughters is immoral in all cases, others don't, that pretty much ends the discussion.

I haven't seen anyone else on here say that drunkenly banging your daughters is moral either, nor was anyone trying to imply that. But, don't let that keep you from getting into the ring with your carefully constructed strawman. Wouldn't surprise me if he beats your ass though.

Well I'm glad you disagree with your god about the righteousness of this man.