Socrates Faith in God the Creator in Socrates Own Words

[LOki]

...but necessity was laid upon me—the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first. ...but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise
...but in order that they may not appear to be at a loss, they repeat the ready-made charges which are used against all philosophers about teaching things up in the clouds and under the earth, and having no gods, and making the worse appear the better cause; for they do not like to confess that their pretence of knowledge has been detected—which is the truth: and as they are numerous and ambitious and energetic, and are all in battle array and have persuasive tongues, they have filled your ears with their loud and inveterate calumnies.

....Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet after my manner, and convincing him, saying: O my friend, why do you who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all? Are you not ashamed of this?

And if the person with whom I am arguing says: Yes, but I do care; I do not depart or let him go at once; I interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less. And this I should say to everyone whom I meet, young and old, citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens, inasmuch as they are my brethren.

For this is the command of God, as I would have you know; and I believe that to this day no greater good has ever happened in the State than my service to the God. For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul.

I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth.

Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times.

- Socrates

The Apology of Socrates. Plato. 1909-14. The Apology, Phædo and Crito. The Harvard Classics

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.

Nice to know that you have just discovered that Socrates was not an atheist.

Way to go little fellah! ... I guess.

 

[JimBowie1958]

...but necessity was laid upon me—the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first. ...but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise
...but in order that they may not appear to be at a loss, they repeat the ready-made charges which are used against all philosophers about teaching things up in the clouds and under the earth, and having no gods, and making the worse appear the better cause; for they do not like to confess that their pretence of knowledge has been detected—which is the truth: and as they are numerous and ambitious and energetic, and are all in battle array and have persuasive tongues, they have filled your ears with their loud and inveterate calumnies.

....Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet after my manner, and convincing him, saying: O my friend, why do you who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all? Are you not ashamed of this?

And if the person with whom I am arguing says: Yes, but I do care; I do not depart or let him go at once; I interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less. And this I should say to everyone whom I meet, young and old, citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens, inasmuch as they are my brethren.

For this is the command of God, as I would have you know; and I believe that to this day no greater good has ever happened in the State than my service to the God. For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul.

I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth.

Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times.

- Socrates

The Apology of Socrates. Plato. 1909-14. The Apology, Phædo and Crito. The Harvard Classics

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.

Nice to know that you have just discovered that Socrates was not an atheist.

Way to go little fellah! ... I guess.

Why do you suppose that I have just now discovered it?

 

[LOki]

...but necessity was laid upon me—the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first. ...but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise
...but in order that they may not appear to be at a loss, they repeat the ready-made charges which are used against all philosophers about teaching things up in the clouds and under the earth, and having no gods, and making the worse appear the better cause; for they do not like to confess that their pretence of knowledge has been detected—which is the truth: and as they are numerous and ambitious and energetic, and are all in battle array and have persuasive tongues, they have filled your ears with their loud and inveterate calumnies.

....Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet after my manner, and convincing him, saying: O my friend, why do you who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all? Are you not ashamed of this?

And if the person with whom I am arguing says: Yes, but I do care; I do not depart or let him go at once; I interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less. And this I should say to everyone whom I meet, young and old, citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens, inasmuch as they are my brethren.

For this is the command of God, as I would have you know; and I believe that to this day no greater good has ever happened in the State than my service to the God. For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul.

I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth.

Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times.

- Socrates

The Apology of Socrates. Plato. 1909-14. The Apology, Phædo and Crito. The Harvard Classics

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.

Nice to know that you have just discovered that Socrates was not an atheist.

Way to go little fellah! ... I guess.

Why do you suppose that I have just now discovered it?

Sorry if I was mistaken, but considering that anyone who has ever read Plato's accounts of Socrates could not possibly have mistaken Socrates for an atheist, it just appeared to me that the necessity you felt to point it out this way:

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.​

... was due to some epiphany you just had, or that you just found it out. If this isn't new information for you, I fail to see the reason for pointing it out--it's really not news for anyone else. That's all.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Nice to know that you have just discovered that Socrates was not an atheist.

Way to go little fellah! ... I guess.

Why do you suppose that I have just now discovered it?

Sorry if I was mistaken, but considering that anyone who has ever read Plato's accounts of Socrates could not possibly have mistaken Socrates for an atheist, it just appeared to me that the necessity you felt to point it out this way:

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.​

... was due to some epiphany you just had, or that you just found it out. If this isn't new information for you, I fail to see the reason for pointing it out--it's really not news for anyone else. That's all.

It is in response to 1. the village atheist claim that Socrates was an atheist, which seems to stem from taking the claims of his detractors out of context, and also 2. to show that a belief in an Eternal Creator is not irrational.

 

[LOki]

Why do you suppose that I have just now discovered it?

Sorry if I was mistaken, but considering that anyone who has ever read Plato's accounts of Socrates could not possibly have mistaken Socrates for an atheist, it just appeared to me that the necessity you felt to point it out this way:

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.​

... was due to some epiphany you just had, or that you just found it out. If this isn't new information for you, I fail to see the reason for pointing it out--it's really not news for anyone else. That's all.

It is in response to 1. the village atheist claim that Socrates was an atheist, which seems to stem from taking the claims of his detractors out of context, and also 2. to show that a belief in an Eternal Creator is not irrational.

1. Yes. Some atheists are clearly retarded. A fine demonstration that atheism conveys no certain proof of immunity from being stupid.

2. Socrates' candid superstition is no argument that belief in an Eternal Creator is in any manner rational.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sorry if I was mistaken, but considering that anyone who has ever read Plato's accounts of Socrates could not possibly have mistaken Socrates for an atheist, it just appeared to me that the necessity you felt to point it out this way:

Socrates was a believer, a preacher and shepherd of souls, not an atheist.​

... was due to some epiphany you just had, or that you just found it out. If this isn't new information for you, I fail to see the reason for pointing it out--it's really not news for anyone else. That's all.

It is in response to 1. the village atheist claim that Socrates was an atheist, which seems to stem from taking the claims of his detractors out of context, and also 2. to show that a belief in an Eternal Creator is not irrational.

1. Yes. Some atheists are clearly retarded. A fine demonstration that atheism conveys no certain proof of immunity from being stupid.

2. Socrates' candid superstition is no argument that belief in an Eternal Creator is in any manner rational.

I disagree on #2, since Socrates arrived at a belief in a God. I do not think it likely that he came to that belief merely due to superstition.

 

[LOki]

It is in response to 1. the village atheist claim that Socrates was an atheist, which seems to stem from taking the claims of his detractors out of context, and also 2. to show that a belief in an Eternal Creator is not irrational.

1. Yes. Some atheists are clearly retarded. A fine demonstration that atheism conveys no certain proof of immunity from being stupid.

2. Socrates' candid superstition is no argument that belief in an Eternal Creator is in any manner rational.

I disagree on #2, since Socrates arrived at a belief in a God. I do not think it likely that he came to that belief merely due to superstition.

Superstition.

 

[newpolitics]

Who cares what Socrates believed in, as far as dieties go? That he believed in a greek god, (he was probably referring to Zeus), does not demonstrate anything about the actual existence of god.

Also:

The god he believed in certainly wasn't a judeo-christian deity, as that wasn't invented yet.
He lived in a time before science, when supernatural, theistic views of the world dominated the culture. It would be ridiculous for anyone during that time to not believe, as they had no altnerative explanations for anything. In fact, Socrates was part of the very beginning of finding rational explanations, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have believed in the gods.

Lastly, we don't even known if Socrates existed, which isn't really that important. Nearly everyone back then believed in the greek pantheon. Aristotle most certainly was a theist. So what? I don't even understand the point of this thread. Was it made to demonstrate that god exists? If so, its a terrible attempt. who ever said that Socrates WAS an atheist? Why would anybody be an atheist back then? They didn't understand the natural causes of things yet. That didn't happen until the enlightment, in bulk.

 

[Unkotare]

So what Socrates did not believe in iPhones did he?

Sure he did. In fact, he knew all that can be known about iPhones (even if he might have forgotten some of it).

What? Nobody appreciated this super-hilarious comment? Hello? Hello?

 

[editec]

Its not called FAITH in god by accident, kiddies.

Attempting to have a logical debate about the existence (or non existence) of GOD is rather silly.

And proposing that Aristotle believed in GOD as evidence to support your belief is equally silly.


FAITH is belief without need for empiracy evidence.

If you happen to have faith, good for you, but expecting that you can give faith to another is again, rather a silly thing to believe.

I mean come on don't you people know your own bible?

FAITH is a gift granted to people, not something they arrived at by logic.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Its not called FAITH in god by accident, kiddies.

Attempting to have a logical debate about the existence (or non existence) of GOD is rather silly.

And proposing that Aristotle believed in GOD as evidence to support your belief is equally silly.


FAITH is belief without need for empiracy evidence.

If you happen to have faith, good for you, but expecting that you can give faith to another is again, rather a silly thing to believe.

I mean come on don't you people know your own bible?

FAITH is a gift granted to people, not something they arrived at by logic.

Yes, there is no requirement for reasonable evidence in order to have faith, but it is not prohibited either. Many of the leading lights in Western Christianity have a very solid foundation in reason and evidence to the faith they held.

But your mileage, as always, may vary.

 

[JimBowie1958]

1. Yes. Some atheists are clearly retarded. A fine demonstration that atheism conveys no certain proof of immunity from being stupid.

2. Socrates' candid superstition is no argument that belief in an Eternal Creator is in any manner rational.

I disagree on #2, since Socrates arrived at a belief in a God. I do not think it likely that he came to that belief merely due to superstition.

Superstition.

Absolute moral certitude arrived at by reason.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Who cares what Socrates believed in, as far as dieties go?

Well, obviously the people participating on this thread do or they wouldnt bother, to include you.

The god he believed in certainly wasn't a judeo-christian deity, as that wasn't invented yet.

Lol, yes, the Jewish God was well KNOWN before Socrates, at least down in Palestine, though not by Greeks.

And that the God Socrates IDed was given a different name, the concept was very close, and based on the later Socratic writings by Plato and Aristotle, I think Socrates got it close enough to not strain the difference as far as faith goes. The Catholic church regards the Socratic school as being monotheistic starting with Socrats, and that is really good enough for me.

He lived in a time before science, when supernatural, theistic views of the world dominated the culture. It would be ridiculous for anyone during that time to not believe, as they had no altnerative explanations for anything.

that is a complete myth. They often did use the gods of the gap answer for things, but they also did a lot of experimentation, calculation and reasoned consideration of the world around them. These ancient people calculated the curcumference of the Earth and its diameter, the distance to the moon and its diameter as well. They had mechanical calculators, chemical explosives, atomic theory, and had regular advances in the construction of ever more ocean worthy ocean going ships, and more. And they didnt do this by merely setting up shrines and burning incence to a moon god.

They didn't understand the natural causes of things yet. That didn't happen until the enlightment, in bulk.

Again, bullshit. You dont seem to know much about the technological accomplishments of the ancient world. It wasnt untill the 16th century that westerners began to exced those accomplishments in most respects and scientific/engineering investigation did not start with a dig into the ancient writings of the Socratic school of thought.

 

[LOki]

I disagree on #2, since Socrates arrived at a belief in a God. I do not think it likely that he came to that belief merely due to superstition.

Superstition.

Absolute moral certitude arrived at by reason.

A belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation.

 

[editec]

What difference do any of us expct it to make if a golden age of greece philosopher believed in a (or many) Gods?

Do any of us expect non-believers to care? they won't.

And if we could prove that these philosophers did NOT believe in GOD, would that change the minds of any beleivers>

Of course it would not.

So what the point of this whole exercise, really?

It is merely a platform upon which believers and non-believers can insult each others' belief systems.

Other than giving faithful believers or equally faithful atheists the opportunity to bitch at each other this thread truly serves no purpose.

 

[uscitizen]

What difference do any of us expct it to make if a golden age of greece philosopher believed in a (or many) Gods?

Do any of us expect non-believers to care? they won't.

And if we could prove that these philosophers did NOT believe in GOD, would that change the minds of any beleivers>

Of course it would not.

So what the point of this whole exercise, really?

It is merely a platform upon which believers and non-believers can insult each others' belief systems.

Other than giving faithful believers or equally faithful atheists the opportunity to bitch at each other this thread truly serves no purpose.

It serves about the same purpose as any religious discussion does.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Superstition.

Absolute moral certitude arrived at by reason.

A belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation.

A belief in an eternal creator is not 'magic', doofus.

 

[JimBowie1958]

What difference do any of us expct it to make if a golden age of greece philosopher believed in a (or many) Gods?

In and of itself, none at all. But Socrates came to this belief of a single God likely through a rational process that the Socratic school eventually espoused, so it demonstrates that a belief in God can be arrived at through a rational process.

Do any of us expect non-believers to care? they won't.

Not one unbeliever in the entire frigging globe will possibly care?
You dont know that, to say the least.

And if we could prove that these philosophers did NOT believe in GOD, would that change the minds of any beleivers>

No. Since it is simply an example of how one *can* reasonably come to a belief, it matters not at all that others can try to be rational and come to a different belief since they may have access to different knowlege, insight, experiences, etc.

Some do not believe today that we actually landed on the moon, so what? Does that make those who do believe we did somehow embiciles?

Of course it would not.

Yes, it would not since it is an irrational assertion to suggest that one person cannot make a rational argument for proposition X simply because another person makes a different argument against proposition X.

So what the point of this whole exercise, really?

What is the point of ANY discussion about a topic, dude?

It is merely a platform upon which believers and non-believers can insult each others' belief systems.

I guess you make what you will of it, but if so, then why are you posting on the thread if it is a waste of your time?

Other than giving faithful believers or equally faithful atheists the opportunity to bitch at each other this thread truly serves no purpose.

In your stated opinion, which your behavior completely contradicts since you are posting here.

 

[JimBowie1958]

What difference do any of us expct it to make if a golden age of greece philosopher believed in a (or many) Gods?

Do any of us expect non-believers to care? they won't.

And if we could prove that these philosophers did NOT believe in GOD, would that change the minds of any beleivers>

Of course it would not.

So what the point of this whole exercise, really?

It is merely a platform upon which believers and non-believers can insult each others' belief systems.

Other than giving faithful believers or equally faithful atheists the opportunity to bitch at each other this thread truly serves no purpose.

It serves about the same purpose as any religious discussion does.

Which would be.....?

 

[LOki]

Absolute moral certitude arrived at by reason.

A belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation.

A belief in an eternal creator is not 'magic', doofus.

You're right; belief in an eternal creator is not 'magic'--belief in an eternal creator is believing in magic.