Socialized medicine does not work...

I take issue with the idea that the US even has a 'system', I would only call the set of hospitals and clinics under one provider a system. Everyone knows that quality varies widely and that some places specialize. That is not even a uniform system that you can put single variables on.

Since the lefties seem to like rankings here are a few, I am not going to defend the source at the moment but the seem credible. When you look at individual units, the story of crappy US health care falls apart. It is hard to fabricate some specious metric when real patients like the US treatment centers.

Worlds top hospitals, The top 7 all in the US, 17 of the top 20 in the US. No wonder the Canadian province governor came here, and I didn't see any Cuban, LOL.
World | Ranking Web of Hospitals

Worlds most technologically advanced hospitals, maybe less subjectivity here. 16 out of 30 in the US, yes the cold hearted uncaring USA spending more on medical technology. 4 in the UK (on par with US), only 2 in the whole rest of Europe. Pretty damning if you believe in those state systems, those loving socialists don't care enough to give each and every person the absolute very best.
http://www.topmastersinhealthcare.com/30-most-technologically-advanced-hospitals-in-the-world/


Top 10 cancer hospitals, top 5 all in US 10 Best Cancer Hospitals in the World - Insider Monkey

11 Best surgical US has only 1, the top spot.
11 Best Surgical Hospitals in the World - Insider Monkey


even liberal CBS has to conclude US high end care is extremely good, probably the best. Of course they have to get the standard dig in about universal care, it must be obligatory.
Reverse Medical Tourism Points Up Pluses and Minuses of U.S. Healthcare

While soaring medical costs in this country have driven many Americans to seek healthcare abroad, many patients from other nations continue to seek high-end care in the U.S. Some hospitals that have a reputation for treating certain ailments -- especially rare ones -- are doing a good reverse medical tourism business. But if our primary care was as good as, say, our ability to cure infant heart defects, fewer of our own citizens would be going to India or Mexico for routine operations.



WHO and our idiot in residence think Cuba has better healthcare. When the chips are down and you have cancer, raise your hand if you are going to Cuba. Mayo clinic versus any Cuban hospital, anyone? anyone?
 
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You said I lack substance but then you addressed almost none of the points I made, none. Then you say that the women 'seems intelligent' but then attacked her credentials.


First she is co-founder of a company that support physicians, secondly I don't care. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy in this case, she made detailed arguments that you tried to hand wave away by saying she is not doctor. Well, so are you a doctor, are you 'qualified' to comment?

I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

So try again, I will shorten the list and make it simpler for you. France has lower access than the US and lower quality of care than the US, but the highest outcomes according to the study and as you said. Logically then you are forced to conclude that access to quality healthcare is not needed for good outcomes, which means universal care is irrelevant. I can't parse it any simpler for you, it is logically impossible to conclude from this study that better healthcare means better outcomes as you are doing. Your own quote from that study : "However, the indicators that are available demonstrate the health care system to be just one of many factors, including social and economic well-being, that influence the health of a nation. "

So what does a rational (i.e. non-liberal person) conclude? The only logical conclusion would be that our health care system is actually better than France, but there are other factors besides health care when it comes to outcomes, so why the hell do you keep harping on health care?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

WHO healthcare rankings; said:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA


World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems


The woman's very last point is salient, you of course ignored it. "It may be fine to blast the U.S. system for being expensive, but to say that we are paying too much for a bad system, while assessing badness based on the system being expensive, is circular logic that should have no place in serious scientific conversation"

The whole idea you are putting forth is rather dumb, one's health and lifespan are more determined by life choices and genetics than any hospital nearby. It is not 'the goal' of a health care system to make sure you live a long life, that is my goal and not the governments.

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

See when you post the World Health Organization's rankings... without thinking about it... you disqualify yourself as a thoughtful debater.

Are you telling me, that you really believe that people in Dominica, get better health care than US citizens? You are crazy.

Moreover, you left off Cuba. Cuba was ranked 39th.

See now to a non-thinking individual.... they would say "See that shows how bad US health care is!".

But to a thinking individual... we would say.... huh? Cuba is just two ranks below the US? Cuba? Where buildings collapse on a routine basis? Where people cobble together junk yard parts to make rafts to get to the US? Cuba, where people go to college to get a degree, so they can be a waiter at a resort restaurant?

That Cuba has almost as good of health care, as the US? By just two ranks?

See, if you *want* to believe that socialized care is better than US care, then you just look at the WHO ranks, and say "well that supports what I already believe".

But to any rational person, we look at that and think.. wait a minute....

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.​

Ok, so let's review.... 1997, just three years before the 2000 WHO rankings... meaning it would be during this time that the WHO was collecting it's data to make the WHO rankings.....

  1. There were shortages of all medicine, all the way down to basic aspirin
  2. Medications were being smuggled out by the nurses and doctors to sell illegally
  3. Patients bribed doctors with food, money and other gifts just to get appointment, let alone x-rays and blood tests done
  4. If you did not have bribe money, or a contact, wait times were months, if not years
  5. While the elite had VIP treatment, common Cubans had to queue from dawn, and many times would still fail to be seen.
  6. Hospitals and doctors had "allotted numbers" of patients they would see in a day, meaning if you were the number after that allotted number, you didn't get seen. Sucks to be you.
  7. Preventative care for children existed, but for everyone else, not so much.
  8. Hospitals had no running water, no toilets, and according to the hospitals own staff, infection risks were extremely high.
Did you catch all that? This is Cuba.... the Cuba that the World Health Organization ranked 39th... compared to the US at 37.

And that's the information from just this one article. There are many more things about Cuba, that are insanely bad. Most Cubans are brought to the hospital in a wheelbarrow. Most hospitals don't have an ambulance service. Cuban doctors can lose their jobs if they report that a baby died, so if the infant dies soon after birth, the doctors simply don't report it. It never happened.

A Cuban American went back to visit his mother, and snapped some photos with his phone, while in a hospital.

View attachment 114596

His parents hurt a finger, and needed an X-ray. This is the x-ray room. Ripped bed. 1960s, or 70s x-ray machine. Water damage through the ceiling, and walls.

That's "free" health care. That's 'universal government care'.

This is ranked 39th, and our system is ranked 37th? Really? That's almost on par with our system?

Now if you are rational person, you are asking yourself, how the heck did Cuba get to be almost on par with the US, on a ranking of health care?


And the answer to that, is extremely simple. Because of how they measured the quality of health care.... by not measuring the quality.

I have the WHO report on my computer, and you can verify for yourself everything I am saying. I dare you to.

The following are the percentages of the score, that made the assessment.

Health 50%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 15%
Equality 35%​
Responsiveness 25%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 12.5%
Equality 12.5%​
Fairness of Payment. 25%

Now look at that carefully.... Fairness of payment.... that has nothing to do with the quality. And as long as everyone pays the same, even if they pay nothing, and get nothing... that's fair.

So Cuba automatically get's 25% of the score.

Responsiveness Equality.... As long as it is equally responsive to everyone, even if the response is equally nothing... that's equal.... so Cuba gets 12.5% of the score.

Cuba has 37.5% of the score.

Health Equality.... as long as everyone is equally healthy or equally sick, as long as they are equal... Cuba gets 35% of the score.

Cuba has 72.5% of the score.

Now let's look at the remaining 27.5%.... first the 15% that accounts for "health".

So health is the ability of the health care system to heal cancer? no. To heal diseases? No. To do a heart by-pass? No. To do knee replacement, or hip replacement? To remove a cataract? No.

Health is exclusively 'life expectancy'. That's it. Now, we already know that Cuban doctors simply don't report infant deaths. Of course auto fatalities are rare, because no one owns a car. Suicides are not common, unless you count people dying while attempting to get to the US, which of course the government does not count. And violence in a police state is also very low.

What does any of that have to do with health care? Nothing. Which is why again, I have said over and over, and will continue to say, life expectancy is completely irrelevant to health care.

That leaves responsiveness. This one cracks me up. According to the WHO report, page 32. Again you can check everything I'm saying. Responsiveness is the following....

Respect for dignity 16.7%
Confidentiality 16.7%
Autonomy 16.7%
Prompt attention 20%
Quality of amenities 15%
Access to social support networks 10%
Choice of provider 5%

What does any of this have to do with the quality of the care? "Prompt Attention" was 1/5th of the score, which only counted for 12.5% of the total.

Respect for dignity? What good does that do, if I'm dying of cancer, and all you do is 'respect' me? Confidentiality? If I'm dying, well at least you better keep is a secret until I'm dead? Autonomy? Quality of amenities? We know Cuba didn't get high marks on that one. Most hospitals you had to bring your own blankets, and food. Heck, you had to bring your own water to flush the toilet. Choice of provider? Yeah, the choice was government. That was the only provider. They wish they had a choice. Access to support networks? Yeah, I want to hold hands with someone, more than I want healed.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are fine........

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, AND HEAL PATIENTS?!?!?!? WHAT ABOUT THAT??!

Not one.... NOT EVEN ONE.... measured the ability of the health care system to....... HEAL...

THAT.... that right there, is why Cuba could be 39th on the list.... while average Cubans can't even get Aspirin. The entire ranking system had nothing to do with the quality of the care. They measure how socialized it was, how 'fair' it was, how equal it was, how long people live in the country. They measured everything, and anything, except how good the care was.

Like all things left-wing and socialized, you have to bend over backwards, and bend yourself into intellectual pretzels, to pretend left-wing socialist policies work.

Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!


Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia
 
You said I lack substance but then you addressed almost none of the points I made, none. Then you say that the women 'seems intelligent' but then attacked her credentials.


First she is co-founder of a company that support physicians, secondly I don't care. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy in this case, she made detailed arguments that you tried to hand wave away by saying she is not doctor. Well, so are you a doctor, are you 'qualified' to comment?

I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

So try again, I will shorten the list and make it simpler for you. France has lower access than the US and lower quality of care than the US, but the highest outcomes according to the study and as you said. Logically then you are forced to conclude that access to quality healthcare is not needed for good outcomes, which means universal care is irrelevant. I can't parse it any simpler for you, it is logically impossible to conclude from this study that better healthcare means better outcomes as you are doing. Your own quote from that study : "However, the indicators that are available demonstrate the health care system to be just one of many factors, including social and economic well-being, that influence the health of a nation. "

So what does a rational (i.e. non-liberal person) conclude? The only logical conclusion would be that our health care system is actually better than France, but there are other factors besides health care when it comes to outcomes, so why the hell do you keep harping on health care?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

WHO healthcare rankings; said:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA


World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems


The woman's very last point is salient, you of course ignored it. "It may be fine to blast the U.S. system for being expensive, but to say that we are paying too much for a bad system, while assessing badness based on the system being expensive, is circular logic that should have no place in serious scientific conversation"

The whole idea you are putting forth is rather dumb, one's health and lifespan are more determined by life choices and genetics than any hospital nearby. It is not 'the goal' of a health care system to make sure you live a long life, that is my goal and not the governments.

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

See when you post the World Health Organization's rankings... without thinking about it... you disqualify yourself as a thoughtful debater.

Are you telling me, that you really believe that people in Dominica, get better health care than US citizens? You are crazy.

Moreover, you left off Cuba. Cuba was ranked 39th.

See now to a non-thinking individual.... they would say "See that shows how bad US health care is!".

But to a thinking individual... we would say.... huh? Cuba is just two ranks below the US? Cuba? Where buildings collapse on a routine basis? Where people cobble together junk yard parts to make rafts to get to the US? Cuba, where people go to college to get a degree, so they can be a waiter at a resort restaurant?

That Cuba has almost as good of health care, as the US? By just two ranks?

See, if you *want* to believe that socialized care is better than US care, then you just look at the WHO ranks, and say "well that supports what I already believe".

But to any rational person, we look at that and think.. wait a minute....

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.​

Ok, so let's review.... 1997, just three years before the 2000 WHO rankings... meaning it would be during this time that the WHO was collecting it's data to make the WHO rankings.....

  1. There were shortages of all medicine, all the way down to basic aspirin
  2. Medications were being smuggled out by the nurses and doctors to sell illegally
  3. Patients bribed doctors with food, money and other gifts just to get appointment, let alone x-rays and blood tests done
  4. If you did not have bribe money, or a contact, wait times were months, if not years
  5. While the elite had VIP treatment, common Cubans had to queue from dawn, and many times would still fail to be seen.
  6. Hospitals and doctors had "allotted numbers" of patients they would see in a day, meaning if you were the number after that allotted number, you didn't get seen. Sucks to be you.
  7. Preventative care for children existed, but for everyone else, not so much.
  8. Hospitals had no running water, no toilets, and according to the hospitals own staff, infection risks were extremely high.
Did you catch all that? This is Cuba.... the Cuba that the World Health Organization ranked 39th... compared to the US at 37.

And that's the information from just this one article. There are many more things about Cuba, that are insanely bad. Most Cubans are brought to the hospital in a wheelbarrow. Most hospitals don't have an ambulance service. Cuban doctors can lose their jobs if they report that a baby died, so if the infant dies soon after birth, the doctors simply don't report it. It never happened.

A Cuban American went back to visit his mother, and snapped some photos with his phone, while in a hospital.

View attachment 114596

His parents hurt a finger, and needed an X-ray. This is the x-ray room. Ripped bed. 1960s, or 70s x-ray machine. Water damage through the ceiling, and walls.

That's "free" health care. That's 'universal government care'.

This is ranked 39th, and our system is ranked 37th? Really? That's almost on par with our system?

Now if you are rational person, you are asking yourself, how the heck did Cuba get to be almost on par with the US, on a ranking of health care?


And the answer to that, is extremely simple. Because of how they measured the quality of health care.... by not measuring the quality.

I have the WHO report on my computer, and you can verify for yourself everything I am saying. I dare you to.

The following are the percentages of the score, that made the assessment.

Health 50%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 15%
Equality 35%​
Responsiveness 25%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 12.5%
Equality 12.5%​
Fairness of Payment. 25%

Now look at that carefully.... Fairness of payment.... that has nothing to do with the quality. And as long as everyone pays the same, even if they pay nothing, and get nothing... that's fair.

So Cuba automatically get's 25% of the score.

Responsiveness Equality.... As long as it is equally responsive to everyone, even if the response is equally nothing... that's equal.... so Cuba gets 12.5% of the score.

Cuba has 37.5% of the score.

Health Equality.... as long as everyone is equally healthy or equally sick, as long as they are equal... Cuba gets 35% of the score.

Cuba has 72.5% of the score.

Now let's look at the remaining 27.5%.... first the 15% that accounts for "health".

So health is the ability of the health care system to heal cancer? no. To heal diseases? No. To do a heart by-pass? No. To do knee replacement, or hip replacement? To remove a cataract? No.

Health is exclusively 'life expectancy'. That's it. Now, we already know that Cuban doctors simply don't report infant deaths. Of course auto fatalities are rare, because no one owns a car. Suicides are not common, unless you count people dying while attempting to get to the US, which of course the government does not count. And violence in a police state is also very low.

What does any of that have to do with health care? Nothing. Which is why again, I have said over and over, and will continue to say, life expectancy is completely irrelevant to health care.

That leaves responsiveness. This one cracks me up. According to the WHO report, page 32. Again you can check everything I'm saying. Responsiveness is the following....

Respect for dignity 16.7%
Confidentiality 16.7%
Autonomy 16.7%
Prompt attention 20%
Quality of amenities 15%
Access to social support networks 10%
Choice of provider 5%

What does any of this have to do with the quality of the care? "Prompt Attention" was 1/5th of the score, which only counted for 12.5% of the total.

Respect for dignity? What good does that do, if I'm dying of cancer, and all you do is 'respect' me? Confidentiality? If I'm dying, well at least you better keep is a secret until I'm dead? Autonomy? Quality of amenities? We know Cuba didn't get high marks on that one. Most hospitals you had to bring your own blankets, and food. Heck, you had to bring your own water to flush the toilet. Choice of provider? Yeah, the choice was government. That was the only provider. They wish they had a choice. Access to support networks? Yeah, I want to hold hands with someone, more than I want healed.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are fine........

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, AND HEAL PATIENTS?!?!?!? WHAT ABOUT THAT??!

Not one.... NOT EVEN ONE.... measured the ability of the health care system to....... HEAL...

THAT.... that right there, is why Cuba could be 39th on the list.... while average Cubans can't even get Aspirin. The entire ranking system had nothing to do with the quality of the care. They measure how socialized it was, how 'fair' it was, how equal it was, how long people live in the country. They measured everything, and anything, except how good the care was.

Like all things left-wing and socialized, you have to bend over backwards, and bend yourself into intellectual pretzels, to pretend left-wing socialist policies work.

Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!

Yes, I know the Commonwealth Survey referenced stuff from the WHO data. Doesn't change the fact it's wrong.

Second, you didn't read what I wrote. The writer of the article visited Cuba in 1997, not me. Doesn't change the fact Cuba health care is absolute trash, and anyone who does any research on it, knows this.

Now you can insult me all you want, but that facts are on my side. Anyone rational, can see that in the evidence. You on the other hand, are just another parrot, mindless spewing what you have been told, without any effort at critical thought.
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!


Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

Now this is hilarious.....

Cuban citizens live in object poverty, and Cuban women routinely resort to prostitution to earn living income..... But the government taxes the people of Cuba, to pay for an international medical school that trains foreign students to be doctors, and sends them back to their home countries to live an upper class life style......

AND YOU THINK THIS IS GREAT?!?! YOU ARE A MORON!!! A MORON!!! A TOTAL AND COMPLETE MORON!!!

How dumb, how absolutely stupid.... just 100% forest gump stupid, do you have to be, to think that taxing the people of Cuba, living in squalor, so that the communist government can train doctors for other countries for free, and look good?

The more you talk, the more you discredit yourself. How can anyone, even left-wingers like you, take you seriously now?

cubapobreza.jpeg


This is the reality of the Cuban people.

14733427597794.jpeg


This is real daily life of Cubans, in the Capital city. Wood holds up concrete slabs, and roofs have fences around them to keep the crumbling roofs from killing people below. Streets largely empty, because no one can afford a car, new, or old. And virtually no building has an actual window anymore. And that building to the right, with the painted front... that's the side of the building that just collapsed. They just painted wall facing the camera blue. Those people in the picture live there.... because they have no where else to go.

This isn't a bombed out Syria... this is 50 years of peace in Cuba.

But you think their government is great because these impoverished people are paying the taxes to fund a free medical school for foreigners??!? YOU ARE A MORON. Pure and simple. An unthinking, ideological MORON.

You made yourself look ignorant in the last dozen posts. Now you have completely discredited yourself. You are not qualified to even be discussing this topic now. You need to just go home and read a book or something.
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!


Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.
 
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You said I lack substance but then you addressed almost none of the points I made, none. Then you say that the women 'seems intelligent' but then attacked her credentials.


First she is co-founder of a company that support physicians, secondly I don't care. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy in this case, she made detailed arguments that you tried to hand wave away by saying she is not doctor. Well, so are you a doctor, are you 'qualified' to comment?

I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

So try again, I will shorten the list and make it simpler for you. France has lower access than the US and lower quality of care than the US, but the highest outcomes according to the study and as you said. Logically then you are forced to conclude that access to quality healthcare is not needed for good outcomes, which means universal care is irrelevant. I can't parse it any simpler for you, it is logically impossible to conclude from this study that better healthcare means better outcomes as you are doing. Your own quote from that study : "However, the indicators that are available demonstrate the health care system to be just one of many factors, including social and economic well-being, that influence the health of a nation. "

So what does a rational (i.e. non-liberal person) conclude? The only logical conclusion would be that our health care system is actually better than France, but there are other factors besides health care when it comes to outcomes, so why the hell do you keep harping on health care?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

WHO healthcare rankings; said:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA


World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems


The woman's very last point is salient, you of course ignored it. "It may be fine to blast the U.S. system for being expensive, but to say that we are paying too much for a bad system, while assessing badness based on the system being expensive, is circular logic that should have no place in serious scientific conversation"

The whole idea you are putting forth is rather dumb, one's health and lifespan are more determined by life choices and genetics than any hospital nearby. It is not 'the goal' of a health care system to make sure you live a long life, that is my goal and not the governments.

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

See when you post the World Health Organization's rankings... without thinking about it... you disqualify yourself as a thoughtful debater.

Are you telling me, that you really believe that people in Dominica, get better health care than US citizens? You are crazy.

Moreover, you left off Cuba. Cuba was ranked 39th.

See now to a non-thinking individual.... they would say "See that shows how bad US health care is!".

But to a thinking individual... we would say.... huh? Cuba is just two ranks below the US? Cuba? Where buildings collapse on a routine basis? Where people cobble together junk yard parts to make rafts to get to the US? Cuba, where people go to college to get a degree, so they can be a waiter at a resort restaurant?

That Cuba has almost as good of health care, as the US? By just two ranks?

See, if you *want* to believe that socialized care is better than US care, then you just look at the WHO ranks, and say "well that supports what I already believe".

But to any rational person, we look at that and think.. wait a minute....

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.​

Ok, so let's review.... 1997, just three years before the 2000 WHO rankings... meaning it would be during this time that the WHO was collecting it's data to make the WHO rankings.....

  1. There were shortages of all medicine, all the way down to basic aspirin
  2. Medications were being smuggled out by the nurses and doctors to sell illegally
  3. Patients bribed doctors with food, money and other gifts just to get appointment, let alone x-rays and blood tests done
  4. If you did not have bribe money, or a contact, wait times were months, if not years
  5. While the elite had VIP treatment, common Cubans had to queue from dawn, and many times would still fail to be seen.
  6. Hospitals and doctors had "allotted numbers" of patients they would see in a day, meaning if you were the number after that allotted number, you didn't get seen. Sucks to be you.
  7. Preventative care for children existed, but for everyone else, not so much.
  8. Hospitals had no running water, no toilets, and according to the hospitals own staff, infection risks were extremely high.
Did you catch all that? This is Cuba.... the Cuba that the World Health Organization ranked 39th... compared to the US at 37.

And that's the information from just this one article. There are many more things about Cuba, that are insanely bad. Most Cubans are brought to the hospital in a wheelbarrow. Most hospitals don't have an ambulance service. Cuban doctors can lose their jobs if they report that a baby died, so if the infant dies soon after birth, the doctors simply don't report it. It never happened.

A Cuban American went back to visit his mother, and snapped some photos with his phone, while in a hospital.

View attachment 114596

His parents hurt a finger, and needed an X-ray. This is the x-ray room. Ripped bed. 1960s, or 70s x-ray machine. Water damage through the ceiling, and walls.

That's "free" health care. That's 'universal government care'.

This is ranked 39th, and our system is ranked 37th? Really? That's almost on par with our system?

Now if you are rational person, you are asking yourself, how the heck did Cuba get to be almost on par with the US, on a ranking of health care?


And the answer to that, is extremely simple. Because of how they measured the quality of health care.... by not measuring the quality.

I have the WHO report on my computer, and you can verify for yourself everything I am saying. I dare you to.

The following are the percentages of the score, that made the assessment.

Health 50%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 15%
Equality 35%​
Responsiveness 25%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 12.5%
Equality 12.5%​
Fairness of Payment. 25%

Now look at that carefully.... Fairness of payment.... that has nothing to do with the quality. And as long as everyone pays the same, even if they pay nothing, and get nothing... that's fair.

So Cuba automatically get's 25% of the score.

Responsiveness Equality.... As long as it is equally responsive to everyone, even if the response is equally nothing... that's equal.... so Cuba gets 12.5% of the score.

Cuba has 37.5% of the score.

Health Equality.... as long as everyone is equally healthy or equally sick, as long as they are equal... Cuba gets 35% of the score.

Cuba has 72.5% of the score.

Now let's look at the remaining 27.5%.... first the 15% that accounts for "health".

So health is the ability of the health care system to heal cancer? no. To heal diseases? No. To do a heart by-pass? No. To do knee replacement, or hip replacement? To remove a cataract? No.

Health is exclusively 'life expectancy'. That's it. Now, we already know that Cuban doctors simply don't report infant deaths. Of course auto fatalities are rare, because no one owns a car. Suicides are not common, unless you count people dying while attempting to get to the US, which of course the government does not count. And violence in a police state is also very low.

What does any of that have to do with health care? Nothing. Which is why again, I have said over and over, and will continue to say, life expectancy is completely irrelevant to health care.

That leaves responsiveness. This one cracks me up. According to the WHO report, page 32. Again you can check everything I'm saying. Responsiveness is the following....

Respect for dignity 16.7%
Confidentiality 16.7%
Autonomy 16.7%
Prompt attention 20%
Quality of amenities 15%
Access to social support networks 10%
Choice of provider 5%

What does any of this have to do with the quality of the care? "Prompt Attention" was 1/5th of the score, which only counted for 12.5% of the total.

Respect for dignity? What good does that do, if I'm dying of cancer, and all you do is 'respect' me? Confidentiality? If I'm dying, well at least you better keep is a secret until I'm dead? Autonomy? Quality of amenities? We know Cuba didn't get high marks on that one. Most hospitals you had to bring your own blankets, and food. Heck, you had to bring your own water to flush the toilet. Choice of provider? Yeah, the choice was government. That was the only provider. They wish they had a choice. Access to support networks? Yeah, I want to hold hands with someone, more than I want healed.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are fine........

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, AND HEAL PATIENTS?!?!?!? WHAT ABOUT THAT??!

Not one.... NOT EVEN ONE.... measured the ability of the health care system to....... HEAL...

THAT.... that right there, is why Cuba could be 39th on the list.... while average Cubans can't even get Aspirin. The entire ranking system had nothing to do with the quality of the care. They measure how socialized it was, how 'fair' it was, how equal it was, how long people live in the country. They measured everything, and anything, except how good the care was.

Like all things left-wing and socialized, you have to bend over backwards, and bend yourself into intellectual pretzels, to pretend left-wing socialist policies work.

Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!

Pure BS imaginary speculation. Typical liberal, we cant have one imaginary wrongdoing so lets screw everyone over.You are a doucherocket for most everything you think.
 
Cuban citizens live in object poverty, and Cuban women routinely resort to prostitution to earn living income..... But the government taxes the people of Cuba, to pay for an international medical school that trains foreign students to be doctors, and sends them back to their home countries to live an upper class life style......

AND YOU THINK THIS IS GREAT?!?! YOU ARE A MORON!!! A MORON!!! A TOTAL AND COMPLETE MORON!!!

I would really be a moron to engage you in a debate about Cuba when the debate is about socialized healthcare vs capitalist based healthcare. You can introduce all the anti-Cuban propaganda you wish but I'm not biting. why should I?
With the weight of WHO and the Commonwealth Fund behind me I don't need to engage in a frivolous side debate about how Cuban healthcare can be two rankings below that of the USA..The methodology for the rankings can be found on the respective websites of the WHO and the Commonwealth Fund. And since Cuba is ranked below the USA. I find your bellowing about that healthcare system bizarre . I'd be more concerned about those ranked ahead of the USA...and most of those don't have the Urban blight we do.
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!


Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!
 
You said I lack substance but then you addressed almost none of the points I made, none. Then you say that the women 'seems intelligent' but then attacked her credentials.


First she is co-founder of a company that support physicians, secondly I don't care. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy in this case, she made detailed arguments that you tried to hand wave away by saying she is not doctor. Well, so are you a doctor, are you 'qualified' to comment?

I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

So try again, I will shorten the list and make it simpler for you. France has lower access than the US and lower quality of care than the US, but the highest outcomes according to the study and as you said. Logically then you are forced to conclude that access to quality healthcare is not needed for good outcomes, which means universal care is irrelevant. I can't parse it any simpler for you, it is logically impossible to conclude from this study that better healthcare means better outcomes as you are doing. Your own quote from that study : "However, the indicators that are available demonstrate the health care system to be just one of many factors, including social and economic well-being, that influence the health of a nation. "

So what does a rational (i.e. non-liberal person) conclude? The only logical conclusion would be that our health care system is actually better than France, but there are other factors besides health care when it comes to outcomes, so why the hell do you keep harping on health care?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

WHO healthcare rankings; said:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA


World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems


The woman's very last point is salient, you of course ignored it. "It may be fine to blast the U.S. system for being expensive, but to say that we are paying too much for a bad system, while assessing badness based on the system being expensive, is circular logic that should have no place in serious scientific conversation"

The whole idea you are putting forth is rather dumb, one's health and lifespan are more determined by life choices and genetics than any hospital nearby. It is not 'the goal' of a health care system to make sure you live a long life, that is my goal and not the governments.

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

See when you post the World Health Organization's rankings... without thinking about it... you disqualify yourself as a thoughtful debater.

Are you telling me, that you really believe that people in Dominica, get better health care than US citizens? You are crazy.

Moreover, you left off Cuba. Cuba was ranked 39th.

See now to a non-thinking individual.... they would say "See that shows how bad US health care is!".

But to a thinking individual... we would say.... huh? Cuba is just two ranks below the US? Cuba? Where buildings collapse on a routine basis? Where people cobble together junk yard parts to make rafts to get to the US? Cuba, where people go to college to get a degree, so they can be a waiter at a resort restaurant?

That Cuba has almost as good of health care, as the US? By just two ranks?

See, if you *want* to believe that socialized care is better than US care, then you just look at the WHO ranks, and say "well that supports what I already believe".

But to any rational person, we look at that and think.. wait a minute....

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.​

Ok, so let's review.... 1997, just three years before the 2000 WHO rankings... meaning it would be during this time that the WHO was collecting it's data to make the WHO rankings.....

  1. There were shortages of all medicine, all the way down to basic aspirin
  2. Medications were being smuggled out by the nurses and doctors to sell illegally
  3. Patients bribed doctors with food, money and other gifts just to get appointment, let alone x-rays and blood tests done
  4. If you did not have bribe money, or a contact, wait times were months, if not years
  5. While the elite had VIP treatment, common Cubans had to queue from dawn, and many times would still fail to be seen.
  6. Hospitals and doctors had "allotted numbers" of patients they would see in a day, meaning if you were the number after that allotted number, you didn't get seen. Sucks to be you.
  7. Preventative care for children existed, but for everyone else, not so much.
  8. Hospitals had no running water, no toilets, and according to the hospitals own staff, infection risks were extremely high.
Did you catch all that? This is Cuba.... the Cuba that the World Health Organization ranked 39th... compared to the US at 37.

And that's the information from just this one article. There are many more things about Cuba, that are insanely bad. Most Cubans are brought to the hospital in a wheelbarrow. Most hospitals don't have an ambulance service. Cuban doctors can lose their jobs if they report that a baby died, so if the infant dies soon after birth, the doctors simply don't report it. It never happened.

A Cuban American went back to visit his mother, and snapped some photos with his phone, while in a hospital.

View attachment 114596

His parents hurt a finger, and needed an X-ray. This is the x-ray room. Ripped bed. 1960s, or 70s x-ray machine. Water damage through the ceiling, and walls.

That's "free" health care. That's 'universal government care'.

This is ranked 39th, and our system is ranked 37th? Really? That's almost on par with our system?

Now if you are rational person, you are asking yourself, how the heck did Cuba get to be almost on par with the US, on a ranking of health care?


And the answer to that, is extremely simple. Because of how they measured the quality of health care.... by not measuring the quality.

I have the WHO report on my computer, and you can verify for yourself everything I am saying. I dare you to.

The following are the percentages of the score, that made the assessment.

Health 50%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 15%
Equality 35%​
Responsiveness 25%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 12.5%
Equality 12.5%​
Fairness of Payment. 25%

Now look at that carefully.... Fairness of payment.... that has nothing to do with the quality. And as long as everyone pays the same, even if they pay nothing, and get nothing... that's fair.

So Cuba automatically get's 25% of the score.

Responsiveness Equality.... As long as it is equally responsive to everyone, even if the response is equally nothing... that's equal.... so Cuba gets 12.5% of the score.

Cuba has 37.5% of the score.

Health Equality.... as long as everyone is equally healthy or equally sick, as long as they are equal... Cuba gets 35% of the score.

Cuba has 72.5% of the score.

Now let's look at the remaining 27.5%.... first the 15% that accounts for "health".

So health is the ability of the health care system to heal cancer? no. To heal diseases? No. To do a heart by-pass? No. To do knee replacement, or hip replacement? To remove a cataract? No.

Health is exclusively 'life expectancy'. That's it. Now, we already know that Cuban doctors simply don't report infant deaths. Of course auto fatalities are rare, because no one owns a car. Suicides are not common, unless you count people dying while attempting to get to the US, which of course the government does not count. And violence in a police state is also very low.

What does any of that have to do with health care? Nothing. Which is why again, I have said over and over, and will continue to say, life expectancy is completely irrelevant to health care.

That leaves responsiveness. This one cracks me up. According to the WHO report, page 32. Again you can check everything I'm saying. Responsiveness is the following....

Respect for dignity 16.7%
Confidentiality 16.7%
Autonomy 16.7%
Prompt attention 20%
Quality of amenities 15%
Access to social support networks 10%
Choice of provider 5%

What does any of this have to do with the quality of the care? "Prompt Attention" was 1/5th of the score, which only counted for 12.5% of the total.

Respect for dignity? What good does that do, if I'm dying of cancer, and all you do is 'respect' me? Confidentiality? If I'm dying, well at least you better keep is a secret until I'm dead? Autonomy? Quality of amenities? We know Cuba didn't get high marks on that one. Most hospitals you had to bring your own blankets, and food. Heck, you had to bring your own water to flush the toilet. Choice of provider? Yeah, the choice was government. That was the only provider. They wish they had a choice. Access to support networks? Yeah, I want to hold hands with someone, more than I want healed.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are fine........

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, AND HEAL PATIENTS?!?!?!? WHAT ABOUT THAT??!

Not one.... NOT EVEN ONE.... measured the ability of the health care system to....... HEAL...

THAT.... that right there, is why Cuba could be 39th on the list.... while average Cubans can't even get Aspirin. The entire ranking system had nothing to do with the quality of the care. They measure how socialized it was, how 'fair' it was, how equal it was, how long people live in the country. They measured everything, and anything, except how good the care was.

Like all things left-wing and socialized, you have to bend over backwards, and bend yourself into intellectual pretzels, to pretend left-wing socialist policies work.

Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!

Pure BS imaginary speculation. Typical liberal, we cant have one imaginary wrongdoing so lets screw everyone over.You are a doucherocket for most everything you think.
Did I imagine you said this?:

"They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon."

If you didn't post that, please correct me.
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!


Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

First off, Cuba *IS* the poster child for socialized medicine. Their health care system reflects perfectly the values of socialism.... 'fairness and equality'.

But that isn't the reasons we are pointing it out and mocking you.

YOU... brought up the 2000 WHO health care ranking system.

The fact Cuba is EVEN ON THE LIST.... discredits the list.

How can you even attempt to compare a system where people don't have access to medications, all the way down to the super advanced space age technology of "Aspirin", to the US where you can buy 100 pills for $4, at a quick mart?

How can you even try and compare a system where people bring food to doctors to bribe them into treating you, to our system I can see a specialist the same week I ask for an appointment?

That's our point. You cited the WHO report which even had Cuba on the list. Cuba's health care is absolutely horrific. HORRIFIC.

6a00d8341c6dc353ef00e5506ba2ad8833-800wi.jpeg


This is not a botched surgery in Cuba. This is normal.



Video from inside Cuban hospital.

Now you tell me in what way you can logically say a comparison between this, and the US, makes sense? You tell me by what measure of quality of care, that the WHO placed Cuba at 39th, compared to the US 37th?
 
I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

See when you post the World Health Organization's rankings... without thinking about it... you disqualify yourself as a thoughtful debater.

Are you telling me, that you really believe that people in Dominica, get better health care than US citizens? You are crazy.

Moreover, you left off Cuba. Cuba was ranked 39th.

See now to a non-thinking individual.... they would say "See that shows how bad US health care is!".

But to a thinking individual... we would say.... huh? Cuba is just two ranks below the US? Cuba? Where buildings collapse on a routine basis? Where people cobble together junk yard parts to make rafts to get to the US? Cuba, where people go to college to get a degree, so they can be a waiter at a resort restaurant?

That Cuba has almost as good of health care, as the US? By just two ranks?

See, if you *want* to believe that socialized care is better than US care, then you just look at the WHO ranks, and say "well that supports what I already believe".

But to any rational person, we look at that and think.. wait a minute....

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.​

Ok, so let's review.... 1997, just three years before the 2000 WHO rankings... meaning it would be during this time that the WHO was collecting it's data to make the WHO rankings.....

  1. There were shortages of all medicine, all the way down to basic aspirin
  2. Medications were being smuggled out by the nurses and doctors to sell illegally
  3. Patients bribed doctors with food, money and other gifts just to get appointment, let alone x-rays and blood tests done
  4. If you did not have bribe money, or a contact, wait times were months, if not years
  5. While the elite had VIP treatment, common Cubans had to queue from dawn, and many times would still fail to be seen.
  6. Hospitals and doctors had "allotted numbers" of patients they would see in a day, meaning if you were the number after that allotted number, you didn't get seen. Sucks to be you.
  7. Preventative care for children existed, but for everyone else, not so much.
  8. Hospitals had no running water, no toilets, and according to the hospitals own staff, infection risks were extremely high.
Did you catch all that? This is Cuba.... the Cuba that the World Health Organization ranked 39th... compared to the US at 37.

And that's the information from just this one article. There are many more things about Cuba, that are insanely bad. Most Cubans are brought to the hospital in a wheelbarrow. Most hospitals don't have an ambulance service. Cuban doctors can lose their jobs if they report that a baby died, so if the infant dies soon after birth, the doctors simply don't report it. It never happened.

A Cuban American went back to visit his mother, and snapped some photos with his phone, while in a hospital.

View attachment 114596

His parents hurt a finger, and needed an X-ray. This is the x-ray room. Ripped bed. 1960s, or 70s x-ray machine. Water damage through the ceiling, and walls.

That's "free" health care. That's 'universal government care'.

This is ranked 39th, and our system is ranked 37th? Really? That's almost on par with our system?

Now if you are rational person, you are asking yourself, how the heck did Cuba get to be almost on par with the US, on a ranking of health care?


And the answer to that, is extremely simple. Because of how they measured the quality of health care.... by not measuring the quality.

I have the WHO report on my computer, and you can verify for yourself everything I am saying. I dare you to.

The following are the percentages of the score, that made the assessment.

Health 50%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 15%
Equality 35%​
Responsiveness 25%
Divided into two parts
Over all average 12.5%
Equality 12.5%​
Fairness of Payment. 25%

Now look at that carefully.... Fairness of payment.... that has nothing to do with the quality. And as long as everyone pays the same, even if they pay nothing, and get nothing... that's fair.

So Cuba automatically get's 25% of the score.

Responsiveness Equality.... As long as it is equally responsive to everyone, even if the response is equally nothing... that's equal.... so Cuba gets 12.5% of the score.

Cuba has 37.5% of the score.

Health Equality.... as long as everyone is equally healthy or equally sick, as long as they are equal... Cuba gets 35% of the score.

Cuba has 72.5% of the score.

Now let's look at the remaining 27.5%.... first the 15% that accounts for "health".

So health is the ability of the health care system to heal cancer? no. To heal diseases? No. To do a heart by-pass? No. To do knee replacement, or hip replacement? To remove a cataract? No.

Health is exclusively 'life expectancy'. That's it. Now, we already know that Cuban doctors simply don't report infant deaths. Of course auto fatalities are rare, because no one owns a car. Suicides are not common, unless you count people dying while attempting to get to the US, which of course the government does not count. And violence in a police state is also very low.

What does any of that have to do with health care? Nothing. Which is why again, I have said over and over, and will continue to say, life expectancy is completely irrelevant to health care.

That leaves responsiveness. This one cracks me up. According to the WHO report, page 32. Again you can check everything I'm saying. Responsiveness is the following....

Respect for dignity 16.7%
Confidentiality 16.7%
Autonomy 16.7%
Prompt attention 20%
Quality of amenities 15%
Access to social support networks 10%
Choice of provider 5%

What does any of this have to do with the quality of the care? "Prompt Attention" was 1/5th of the score, which only counted for 12.5% of the total.

Respect for dignity? What good does that do, if I'm dying of cancer, and all you do is 'respect' me? Confidentiality? If I'm dying, well at least you better keep is a secret until I'm dead? Autonomy? Quality of amenities? We know Cuba didn't get high marks on that one. Most hospitals you had to bring your own blankets, and food. Heck, you had to bring your own water to flush the toilet. Choice of provider? Yeah, the choice was government. That was the only provider. They wish they had a choice. Access to support networks? Yeah, I want to hold hands with someone, more than I want healed.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are fine........

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, AND HEAL PATIENTS?!?!?!? WHAT ABOUT THAT??!

Not one.... NOT EVEN ONE.... measured the ability of the health care system to....... HEAL...

THAT.... that right there, is why Cuba could be 39th on the list.... while average Cubans can't even get Aspirin. The entire ranking system had nothing to do with the quality of the care. They measure how socialized it was, how 'fair' it was, how equal it was, how long people live in the country. They measured everything, and anything, except how good the care was.

Like all things left-wing and socialized, you have to bend over backwards, and bend yourself into intellectual pretzels, to pretend left-wing socialist policies work.

Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!

Pure BS imaginary speculation. Typical liberal, we cant have one imaginary wrongdoing so lets screw everyone over.You are a doucherocket for most everything you think.
Did I imagine you said this?:

"They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon."

If you didn't post that, please correct me.

You again are either dishonest or stupid. Reposting what i originally said either shows that you are incapable of following along the train of thought (most likely), or are trying evasion in some sort of dishonest way.

Probably a mixture of both, as your socialist repugnant morals are something lower intellects are attracted to.
 
Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!


Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

Back to lying and dishonesty, it is VERY clear WHY the topic of cuba arose, and you have defended and lavished praise on cuba now for 2 pages in this thread, but now suddenly you cant figure out why we are discussing cuba.

Dumb or dishonest? You are both
 
Medicare was labelled socialized medicine. It is a national treasure.

Obamacare has been labeled socialized medicine. Not only has it saved lives, even Trump voters are worried he'll take away their insurance that they got thanks to the ACA.

Also, I'd rather my tax dollars go to healthcare than corporate welfare.
 
Medicare was labelled socialized medicine. It is a national treasure.

Obamacare has been labeled socialized medicine. Not only has it saved lives, even Trump voters are worried he'll take away their insurance that they got thanks to the ACA.

Also, I'd rather my tax dollars go to healthcare than corporate welfare.

When medicare was launched in 1965 or somewhere near that, they laid out what the future costs would be. By 1990 it cost 2.5 times what liberals said it would.

Obamacare has already not only broken promises but costs more than promised.

How come you dont care about that?
 
Medicare was labelled socialized medicine. It is a national treasure.

Obamacare has been labeled socialized medicine. Not only has it saved lives, even Trump voters are worried he'll take away their insurance that they got thanks to the ACA.

Also, I'd rather my tax dollars go to healthcare than corporate welfare.

When medicare was launched in 1965 or somewhere near that, they laid out what the future costs would be. By 1990 it cost 2.5 times what liberals said it would.

Obamacare has already not only broken promises but costs more than promised.

How come you dont care about that?

Obamacare is the scapegoat for premium increases. Insurance companies are the culprit.
 
Medicare was labelled socialized medicine. It is a national treasure.

Obamacare has been labeled socialized medicine. Not only has it saved lives, even Trump voters are worried he'll take away their insurance that they got thanks to the ACA.

Also, I'd rather my tax dollars go to healthcare than corporate welfare.

When medicare was launched in 1965 or somewhere near that, they laid out what the future costs would be. By 1990 it cost 2.5 times what liberals said it would.

Obamacare has already not only broken promises but costs more than promised.

How come you dont care about that?

Obamacare is the scapegoat for premium increases. Insurance companies are the culprit.

You have it reversed, you are blaming insurance companies for a scheme that obama set up, not them. Funny how no matter what you refuse to blame govt for anything. How come brilliant obama and the libs could not see that coming?

What about the fiscal failure of medicare, i am sure you have a scapegoat for that too. So why did liberals lie in the 60s about the cost of medicare?
 
Medicare was labelled socialized medicine. It is a national treasure.

Obamacare has been labeled socialized medicine. Not only has it saved lives, even Trump voters are worried he'll take away their insurance that they got thanks to the ACA.

Also, I'd rather my tax dollars go to healthcare than corporate welfare.

When medicare was launched in 1965 or somewhere near that, they laid out what the future costs would be. By 1990 it cost 2.5 times what liberals said it would.

Obamacare has already not only broken promises but costs more than promised.

How come you dont care about that?

Obamacare is the scapegoat for premium increases. Insurance companies are the culprit.

You have it reversed, you are blaming insurance companies for a scheme that obama set up, not them. Funny how no matter what you refuse to blame govt for anything. How come brilliant obama and the libs could not see that coming?

What about the fiscal failure of medicare, i am sure you have a scapegoat for that too. So why did liberals lie in the 60s about the cost of medicare?

The mistake is we haven't phased out insurance companies completely in favor of a national healthcare system.

If politicians touch Medicare, there will be an uprising in this country in which we will see more protests and activism.
 
Someone has to pay for something they do not want and will never use, see thats the problem with any form of socialized medicine.... in reality one size never fits all.
Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.
No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.
The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?
It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
Instead of arguing in circles about who ends up paying for what
(not just with health insurance, but what about the costs of crime that taxpayers foot the bill for. What about consequences of smoking pot and who is going to pay for that when we can't even agree what consequences are provable or not!)
Why not set up "separate tracks" so people CAN track the costs of their own policies, ie
A. A separate track for REGISTERED DEMOCRATS, PROCHOICE and/or PROLEGALIZATION advocates to live under and pay their taxes to VOLUNTARILY by ORGANIZING exchanges and coops based on party principles and paid membership on terms and conditions that the actual GROUP members vote on democratically
and accept FULL FINANCIAL AND LEGAL RESPONSIBLITIES for.
B. A separate track for REGISTERED REPUBLICANS and PROLIFE and Anti-Drugs advocates to pay taxes to support.

So instead of arguing back and forth, the group members ACCEPT responsibility REGARDLESS of the cost, and quit imposing on others. If any such policy is unsustainable, the group that advocated that policy has agreed to pay the costs, so it's in that groups "best interest" to pick the most cost-effective consistent policies to pay for.
 

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