Socialists Don't Realize That We Also Dream...

[midcan5]

I may have posted this quote on another thread, but for those of you who missed it, famous 19th economist Frederic Bastiat proclaimed:
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." Though the idea was loosely understood when he was alive, the truth is that he was describing those who believe in a socialist form of government.

If you read a bit of history your would find that could just as easily - maybe more so - be applied to so called capitalists. So adding crook and crook where exactly have we arrived.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/16/opinion/16horn.html


"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary." Adam Smith

 

[JakeStarkey]

I may have posted this quote on another thread, but for those of you who missed it, famous 19th economist Frederic Bastiat proclaimed:
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." Though the idea was loosely understood when he was alive, the truth is that he was describing those who believe in a socialist form of government.

Bastiat was referring to the rise of the corporation and the great entrepreneurs who were creating a new "captive" labor system.

The economist certainly was not referring to socialism.

 

[Barb]

This is the same Reagan, who when talking about Iran Contra, said, "I don't recall." Shortly thereafter, God made sure he could not recall anything. No, government is not always the problem, and, yes, at times, it has better solutions than business.

To be perfectly honest with you, I do not know the full details of the Iran Contra situation. However, it is my understanding that President Reagan was not a willing participant in the affair, it was his staff. Granted, one might make the case that the President should have full control over his staff, however, unless he is an authoritarian it is impossible to keep tabs on every single person and every action they take.

Nonetheless, my point in posting Mr. Reagan's video was not to discuss Reagan's administration per say, but rather to see what people thought about his message. Again, this commentary was made before he was even running.

It was his pet fucking project. He left ALL details to his administration, in all things, not just that one, but he is the one who set the agenda.
Everything following those agendas falls into his area of responsibility. Everything.

 

[Barb]

Yes, and you raise an interesting point which is not really relevant to the conversation I was trying to start. However, since you raised the issue I will comment. It is my opinion that most are not concerned with the fact that there are immigrants in this country, the anger stems from the fact that there are many using the illegal aliens as a political football. People are annoyed that their kids are forced to take Spanish classes, more and more signs are in Spanish, people are acquitted because they were not read their rights in their native language, and the apparent pandering to these individuals appears to many as illegals trying to change the country instead of trying to be an active part of the country which exists. The way in which many of our ancestors did. One of the unique things about America in the past, but is trying to be changed by those who want a steady voting block, was that someone could look at another at the end of their life and not know where on the economic scale or country they started from.

Personally, I believe most people and especially conservatives (Reagan is held in high regard by many conservatives) are most upset with the fact that we do not know for certain how much tax revenue is lost to illegal aliens not paying taxes, while we do have many studies showing how much we are paying for them being here.

Many illegal aliens work in legitimate businesses that withhold payroll taxes and social security. Most of them do not file tax returns so they do not get refunds even though they would probably be due a refund. They also will never received any benefit from the withheld social security taxes. But since they are undocumented we will never know for sure how much they pay or don't pay. Considering how divided the parties are on the immigration issues, I doubt that anything other than a longer wall is going to change.

The parties aren't as divided as you might think on this issue, except at the national level. I've seen some of the most xenophobic comments as much from the left as from the right.

 

[Barb]

This is one of the fundamental things which distinguishes those who put their faith in government, as opposed to those who put their faith in the individual.

Ronald Reagan elucidated this point in a radio commentary he made before he became President. If you would like to see it, here is the link: ‘They Don’t Understand That We Also Dream’… - Obamacare Fail

The predominate economic system in the world today is a blend of regulated capitalism and socialism. A system totally devoid of socialist or capitalist ideals would be a sorry place to live. We have seen how big a failure the USSR was and we have also seen the terrible social problems that arose from a capitalist system devoid of all social programs in the 19th century. It is the proper balance that we should strive for.

The picture that Reagan paints of a large segment of society who's goal is to live off the government is a myth, a popular one but still a myth. I have worked for a number of months in a low income neighborhoods. My wife worked for many years in a food bank. I have a neighbor who worked for DHS for 30 years. From everything I know about people on welfare, I can say I have never met anyone who would rather be on welfare than work. Republicans have beat the drum for years to cut welfare because they believe those on welfare will find jobs if we just stop the welfare payments. Then the questions are asked. What happens to the millions that are disabled? How are the single mothers to find a job when there is no money for child care? What happens to 8 million kids in foster care and institutions? The questions go on, but there no answers. Welfare should be reformed but not the Reagan way.

Free markets are a vital part of our economy and will remain so as are social programs.

I tend to agree with a large portion of what you say. I do not believe that Ronald Reagan would have advocated a complete removal of programs to help the individuals you described. But that is a pointless conversation to have because the man is not even alive so I will not put words in his mouth. I can only speak for myself. And the direction of free society as espoused by Ronald Reagan is much more appealing to me than the direction which we are currently marching down. The ultimate end of the road we are on is an omnipotent government with the ability to do whatever it wishes to whomever it wishes. That is not congruent with our Constitution, which each and every member of Congress swore to uphold.

There is a WEALTH of information available on Reagan, what came out of his own mouth, and what he did to social programs during his administration. There is no need for conjecture, as his record speaks for itself.

 

[Barb]

I may have posted this quote on another thread, but for those of you who missed it, famous 19th economist Frederic Bastiat proclaimed:
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." Though the idea was loosely understood when he was alive, the truth is that he was describing those who believe in a socialist form of government.

IF that is what he spoke of, the irony of current reality must have him spinning in his grave.

 

[Barb]

i may have posted this quote on another thread, but for those of you who missed it, famous 19th economist frederic bastiat proclaimed:
"when plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." though the idea was loosely understood when he was alive, the truth is that he was describing those who believe in a socialist form of government.

bastiat was referring to the rise of the corporation and the great entrepreneurs who were creating a new "captive" labor system.

The economist certainly was not referring to socialism.

aha!

 

[Freedomfan1776]

I may have posted this quote on another thread, but for those of you who missed it, famous 19th economist Frederic Bastiat proclaimed:
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." Though the idea was loosely understood when he was alive, the truth is that he was describing those who believe in a socialist form of government.

Bastiat was referring to the rise of the corporation and the great entrepreneurs who were creating a new "captive" labor system.

The economist certainly was not referring to socialism.

I have to disagree with you on that point. In his most famous book The Law Bastiat is talking about people who have the monopoly on the use of force to make an individual do something. Plunder, is defined in the dictionary as "to take by force or wrongfully." Once again, a capitalist on his own can not make an individual consume his good or work for him. The only way in which this can be accomplished is when the capitalist colludes with those with a monopoly on force (ie: government). This is commonly referred to today as crony capitalism. I personally detest this as much as anyone else.

Bastiat's The Law can be found The Law it is a quick read and I would highly recommend it.

 

[editec]

Who are these so-called socialists you're complaining about?

Would those be the Republican socialists (like Reagan) or the Democratic socialists (like Obama)?

 

[Cuyo]

This is the same Reagan, who when talking about Iran Contra, said, "I don't recall." Shortly thereafter, God made sure he could not recall anything. No, government is not always the problem, and, yes, at times, it has better solutions than business.

Shows up in time to defend Socialism.

I never saw that coming.

It that new center to centrist Republicanism?

So anyone who agrees that government is not always the problem, and at times has better solutions than business, is a "Socialist?"

You're such a joke......

 

[Freedomfan1776]

Who are these so-called socialists you're complaining about?

Would those be the Republican socialists (like Reagan) or the Democratic socialists (like Obama)?

I take issue with any politician who believes that his vision of society can only be achieved by forcing individuals to do things they do not wish to.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Who are these so-called socialists you're complaining about?

Would those be the Republican socialists (like Reagan) or the Democratic socialists (like Obama)?

I take issue with any politician who believes that his vision of society can only be achieved by forcing individuals to do things they do not wish to.

If you believe you do not operate in a social construct with reciprocity and responsibility and privilege as an American citizen, then I politely invite you to go live in a cave.

 

[veritas]

Where have you been?

Here and there. HuffPo. doing stuff.

Thanks for asking, makes me all warm and fuzzy. <3

 

[Flopper]

This is one of the fundamental things which distinguishes those who put their faith in government, as opposed to those who put their faith in the individual.

Ronald Reagan elucidated this point in a radio commentary he made before he became President. If you would like to see it, here is the link: ‘They Don’t Understand That We Also Dream’… - Obamacare Fail

The predominate economic system in the world today is a blend of regulated capitalism and socialism. A system totally devoid of socialist or capitalist ideals would be a sorry place to live. We have seen how big a failure the USSR was and we have also seen the terrible social problems that arose from a capitalist system devoid of all social programs in the 19th century. It is the proper balance that we should strive for.

The picture that Reagan paints of a large segment of society who's goal is to live off the government is a myth, a popular one but still a myth. I have worked for a number of months in a low income neighborhoods. My wife worked for many years in a food bank. I have a neighbor who worked for DHS for 30 years. From everything I know about people on welfare, I can say I have never met anyone who would rather be on welfare than work. Republicans have beat the drum for years to cut welfare because they believe those on welfare will find jobs if we just stop the welfare payments. Then the questions are asked. What happens to the millions that are disabled? How are the single mothers to find a job when there is no money for child care? What happens to 8 million kids in foster care and institutions? The questions go on, but there no answers. Welfare should be reformed but not the Reagan way.

Free markets are a vital part of our economy and will remain so as are social programs.

I tend to agree with a large portion of what you say. I do not believe that Ronald Reagan would have advocated a complete removal of programs to help the individuals you described. But that is a pointless conversation to have because the man is not even alive so I will not put words in his mouth. I can only speak for myself. And the direction of free society as espoused by Ronald Reagan is much more appealing to me than the direction which we are currently marching down. The ultimate end of the road we are on is an omnipotent government with the ability to do whatever it wishes to whomever it wishes. That is not congruent with our Constitution, which each and every member of Congress swore to uphold.

Government spending has been rising for at least 110 years. Look at the link below. There have been brief periods such as in the 1990's where spending fell, but the trend is up. We are spending about 43% of our GNP. This is not just in the US, but a worldwide phenomenon and we have done a better job than most countries at controlling it. Neither party has been very good at cutting spending and I seriously doubt that new Republican initialives will have any better results than in the past.

I think we should ask ourselves why has government spending steadlly increased for 110 years. Blaiming the party in power or a worldwide socalist movements is just a lot a crap. The reasons have to do with demographs, advancements of technology, and growth of population.

Technology has made it possible for 1 person to do the work of 10. Thanks to better healthcare, people are living longer. Getting jobs is getting harder, requireming ever higher and higher levels of education. We have less work. Possibly not less jobs because because we have reduced working hours and depend more and more on part time and temporary work.

People through out the world demand better healthcare, more security, more education. Unfortunately, no matter how hard most people work, they aren't going to get it. So they turn to government to provide at least a fraction of the good life. Unless we can find a way to make things like healthcare, security, and advanced education more affordable to the middle classes, government spending will countinue to grow regardless of who controls congress. In other words, we can't vote ourselves a solution.
US Government Spending As Percent Of GDP in United States 1903-2010 - Federal State Local