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I figured you would have retracted that stupid statement by now. Instead, you are actually challenging me to provide examples of European innovation.
Your the one that insinuated that not following Western European culture was some kind of disability, surley you follow it and have a hundred world changing inovations on the top of your little pin head. All I said is I couldn't think of one.
What you said.......in common English...is that there are none. You have now recognized how ridiculous that is and are walking it back. I understand. I used to pop off like ht when I was a kid.
Now we are talking "under socialism"? I thought we were discussing Western Europe.
You really are boring. Have you any idea how much innovation has come from places like Germany, England, Denmark, Japan and yes......Chchchchina? Are you trying to win an argument by boring me to death?
You need to get out sometime.
Yes, we're talking about socialism and capitalism. Did you read my opening post? Nothing about Western Europe there.
I said that without an incentive to succeed, there's no innovation. JP Morgan invested millions in Thomas Edison because he wanted to create an empire. Not because he really cared about electric light.
How would that have worked under socialism? Or a scenario similar to it. Only a handful of individuals have ground-breaking ideas, and only a couple of those actually have the initiative to take action. How would they put their ideas into action under a system that doesn't allow individual advancement above others?
Your the one that insinuated that not following Western European culture was some kind of disability, surley you follow it and have a hundred world changing inovations on the top of your little pin head. All I said is I couldn't think of one.
What you said.......in common English...is that there are none. You have now recognized how ridiculous that is and are walking it back. I understand. I used to pop off like ht when I was a kid.
This is exactly what I said.
"All you have to do is look at the earth changing inovation that has come out of western Europe in the last 60 years. Personally I can't think of one."
Where exactly did I indicate there were none, my point is the move toward socialism in Western Europe hasn't porduced the inovation we've had here. Of course that's changing here also.
is this an award something like the Nobel Peace Prize....?
it lists the countries which are leaders in business innovation output.....but what are the innovations.....?
IKEA...?
Paraffin heaters are oh, so innovative.
What you said.......in common English...is that there are none. You have now recognized how ridiculous that is and are walking it back. I understand. I used to pop off like ht when I was a kid.
This is exactly what I said.
"All you have to do is look at the earth changing inovation that has come out of western Europe in the last 60 years. Personally I can't think of one."
Where exactly did I indicate there were none, my point is the move toward socialism in Western Europe hasn't porduced the inovation we've had here. Of course that's changing here also.
Oh! You are trying to bullshit me some more? I know what words you used. I also know what you meant.
Your the one that insinuated that not following Western European culture was some kind of disability, surley you follow it and have a hundred world changing inovations on the top of your little pin head. All I said is I couldn't think of one.
What you said.......in common English...is that there are none. You have now recognized how ridiculous that is and are walking it back. I understand. I used to pop off like ht when I was a kid.
This is exactly what I said.
"All you have to do is look at the earth changing inovation that has come out of western Europe in the last 60 years. Personally I can't think of one."
Where exactly did I indicate there were none, my point is the move toward socialism in Western Europe hasn't porduced the inovation we've had here. Of course that's changing here also.
All industrial nations today practice a combination of socialism and capitalism. The amount of each, however, is different in each country. The American government contributed huge amounts of money to build our railroads, ports, roads and other needs of an industrial nation that are not ordinarily built by private industry. No country has ever practiced Marxian communism.
All industrial nations today practice a combination of socialism and capitalism. The amount of each, however, is different in each country. The American government contributed huge amounts of money to build our railroads, ports, roads and other needs of an industrial nation that are not ordinarily built by private industry. No country has ever practiced Marxian communism.
Absolutely true.
The fight in America is not between pure capitalism and pure socialism, but it is a fight in which both sides fight to keep us from going to far in one direction or the other.
For the record, I am of the firm belief that pure capitalism is as dangerous as pure socialism.
Immie
Well, back in 1956 Spain they probably were.
Socialism leads to reduced incentive to produce. Why should a worker, work his ass off day in and day out if he is going to be paid no more than the guy that goes to work every day and spends all day asleep?
Why should the guy who is working on the next alternative energy source spend all that time working on the technology to produce the energy if when he is done with the work, he receives none of the rewards for the effort? He may as well go to work everyday and sleep, because he will earn the same reward.
Why should a business owner risk his capital to build a company (Yes, I know President Obama says the owner didn't build it) if he cannot reap any rewards for risking that capital?
The answer is they should not.
By the way, LL, Mondragon is not an example of socialism at work. It is more in line with our employee ownded companies here in America than socialism. Basically it is a worker owned company. It is not anywhere close to an example of a government owned business.
Mondragon thrives in a world where it and its owners benefit from its ability to keep costs down and make a profit. Those profits are not controlled by the government of Spain.
Mondragón Cooperative: A Business with Commitment to a Common Good
Here is a list of companies that are at least 50% owned by its employees some of which are 100% owned by their employees. If Mondragon were an American business, it would be listed here rather than an example of successful socialism. So your example really does not fit in this thread.
Immie
All industrial nations today practice a combination of socialism and capitalism. The amount of each, however, is different in each country. The American government contributed huge amounts of money to build our railroads, ports, roads and other needs of an industrial nation that are not ordinarily built by private industry. No country has ever practiced Marxian communism.
Absolutely true.
The fight in America is not between pure capitalism and pure socialism, but it is a fight in which both sides fight to keep us from going to far in one direction or the other.
For the record, I am of the firm belief that pure capitalism is as dangerous as pure socialism.
Immie
Agreed.
The question is, in which direction should the scales be tilted?
Well, back in 1956 Spain they probably were.
Socialism leads to reduced incentive to produce. Why should a worker, work his ass off day in and day out if he is going to be paid no more than the guy that goes to work every day and spends all day asleep?
Why should the guy who is working on the next alternative energy source spend all that time working on the technology to produce the energy if when he is done with the work, he receives none of the rewards for the effort? He may as well go to work everyday and sleep, because he will earn the same reward.
Why should a business owner risk his capital to build a company (Yes, I know President Obama says the owner didn't build it) if he cannot reap any rewards for risking that capital?
The answer is they should not.
By the way, LL, Mondragon is not an example of socialism at work. It is more in line with our employee ownded companies here in America than socialism. Basically it is a worker owned company. It is not anywhere close to an example of a government owned business.
Mondragon thrives in a world where it and its owners benefit from its ability to keep costs down and make a profit. Those profits are not controlled by the government of Spain.
Mondragón Cooperative: A Business with Commitment to a Common Good
Here is a list of companies that are at least 50% owned by its employees some of which are 100% owned by their employees. If Mondragon were an American business, it would be listed here rather than an example of successful socialism. So your example really does not fit in this thread.
Immie
It is based in Western Europe. That was the point.
Absolutely true.
The fight in America is not between pure capitalism and pure socialism, but it is a fight in which both sides fight to keep us from going to far in one direction or the other.
For the record, I am of the firm belief that pure capitalism is as dangerous as pure socialism.
Immie
Agreed.
The question is, in which direction should the scales be tilted?
It is? That is the question?
Absolutely true.
The fight in America is not between pure capitalism and pure socialism, but it is a fight in which both sides fight to keep us from going to far in one direction or the other.
For the record, I am of the firm belief that pure capitalism is as dangerous as pure socialism.
Immie
Agreed.
The question is, in which direction should the scales be tilted?
It is? That is the question?
Lets go back to the late 1800's.
A period in our history where it's safe we experience the greatest innovation and growth the world has ever seen. If you've been watching The Men Who Built America you'll know what I'm referring to.
The railroad system, electric light, gasoline, the mass-produced automobile, steel, and more. All because a few men had a relentless desire to succeed, whether from good-will or greed.
And while working conditions did get pretty bad for the workers, the fact still remains that it was the greatest period of growth and innovation we've ever seen. My question is;
What would have happened under socialism? How would the innovation have come if the freedom of success and accumulation of wealth (or greed) that drove men like Vanderbilt, Morgan, Carnegie, Rockefeller, and Ford didn't exist?
Is it fair to say that under socialism, where people simply work for the collective good of others, that we'd probably still be taking horses to work and lighting candles at night?
