Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid

Theory and practice are two separate things.

In theory, yes, this all sounds grand and I myself would agree to it.

But the problem comes into practice. The past sixty years or so has provided more than enough evidence that investment firms and corporate interests outweigh or have complete disdain for the rights and well being of the workers.

And let's face it, as you pointed out we need companies to give us jobs and investment firms to expand those companies and make more jobs and wealth. But those companies need workers to perform those jobs.

Somehow, the well being of the workers and any semblance of solidarity has been driven out of our heads with an inundation of propagandist marketing and education.

You are part of a tax group who pays 70% of the taxes...then you are in the working class, correct? You should understand, more than anyone, why we need equality in this issue.

It's not "evil" corporate American. I really do get sick and tired of hearing this type of nonsense. Corporations in America are the second highest taxed corporations in the world. It's obvious corporations as well as private companies are going to pay as little as possible for wages. But that's the great thing about a free society, if a worker can't receive the pay he's entitled to, he can simply find another job that does pay him a reasonable wage. Corporations as well as private companies regularly do industry compensation surveys because of this. I have worked for corporations and private companies, I have actually received higher wages with the corporations. It is amazing to me though that people have this inferiority complex against corporate america. I know your probably going to say, "what about those poor people at Wal-Mart?" Yes they make low wages, but consider this; number one what would those same people get paid at Target, Sears, or any other retailer....the answer pretty close to the market wage for that position, number two, the more skills and responsibility you have the more you get paid.

Never in our history have we spent more than we're spending now on social programs. Social spending is outgrowing the GDP by a wide margin. Yet what can we show for it as a nation, nothing. Nothing but tax burdens and defecit growing expontentially.
 
Businesses want labour but they want it cheap. It's not altruism. They wouldn't pay for labour if they could get slaves and they wouldn't use slaves if they could get a machine to do the work.

And where does that leave everyone else? There needs to be a viable relationship between business owner & worker/consumer. Ford had it right when he paid his workers enough to buy his products.
 
It's not "evil" corporate American. I really do get sick and tired of hearing this type of nonsense. Corporations in America are the second highest taxed corporations in the world. It's obvious corporations as well as private companies are going to pay as little as possible for wages. But that's the great thing about a free society, if a worker can't receive the pay he's entitled to, he can simply find another job that does pay him a reasonable wage. Corporations as well as private companies regularly do industry compensation surveys because of this. I have worked for corporations and private companies, I have actually received higher wages with the corporations. It is amazing to me though that people have this inferiority complex against corporate america. I know your probably going to say, "what about those poor people at Wal-Mart?" Yes they make low wages, but consider this; number one what would those same people get paid at Target, Sears, or any other retailer....the answer pretty close to the market wage for that position, number two, the more skills and responsibility you have the more you get paid.

Never in our history have we spent more than we're spending now on social programs. Social spending is outgrowing the GDP by a wide margin. Yet what can we show for it as a nation, nothing. Nothing but tax burdens and defecit growing expontentially.

Theory versus reality. You act as though workers have a strong job market in which to simply leave a job. That is not the case. Most workers are struggling to support their families and have little options in a weak job market.

Just because Wal-mart will hire them for $9.00 an hour doesn't mean they should leave their $13.00 an hour job - which isn't enough to feed, house, clothe & keep warm a family of four.

Sorry that you are sick of the evil corporate mantra...but what do you call it when a business structure is geared towards the shareholder and not their own employees? Where does the humanity go? This basically says that the rich are more human than the working class.

And don't be lulled into thinking that companies pay all of their taxes. There are many loopholes that are used, tax shelters and scams in addition to Bush's tax cuts which has sunk our economy further into debt and put that burden squarely on the shoulders of the working class.

And your analogy that if a person has the skills they can get an easy corporate gig is crap. There are not enough corporate gigs that pay a livable wage. There are too many under-employed people, too many unskilled laborers, and too few viable solutions.

I am fortunate enough to work in the biotech field. That is a very small job market, but it pays well. There are not enough biotech jobs to go around to all working class Americans.

There are a lot of office jobs and mostly, they pay crap. I worked at Blue Cross for years. I had the skills and could not get anywhere. I was passed over for raises and bonuses twice. Why? Because of office politics. My manager did not like me. I wasn't the only one. In fact, most of the people in my department were passed over for promotions, posted positions, raises and bonuses.

And there are other factors: temp workers/prison labor/guest workers driving wages down, rising costs of commodities, rising inflation rates, greater worker insecurities and stagnant wages all put the working class in a dangerous position.

Your logic is flawed and very myopic.
 
Absolute BULLSHIT.

Unions in this country ARE big business. They are EXACTLY what they were created to fight.

Where have you been? The unions have been marginalized in a very big way RGS. How many existed in 1980 and how many exist now?
 
Theory versus reality. You act as though workers have a strong job market in which to simply leave a job. That is not the case. Most workers are struggling to support their families and have little options in a weak job market.

Just because Wal-mart will hire them for $9.00 an hour doesn't mean they should leave their $13.00 an hour job - which isn't enough to feed, house, clothe & keep warm a family of four.

Sorry that you are sick of the evil corporate mantra...but what do you call it when a business structure is geared towards the shareholder and not their own employees? Where does the humanity go? This basically says that the rich are more human than the working class.

And don't be lulled into thinking that companies pay all of their taxes. There are many loopholes that are used, tax shelters and scams in addition to Bush's tax cuts which has sunk our economy further into debt and put that burden squarely on the shoulders of the working class.

And your analogy that if a person has the skills they can get an easy corporate gig is crap. There are not enough corporate gigs that pay a livable wage. There are too many under-employed people, too many unskilled laborers, and too few viable solutions.

I am fortunate enough to work in the biotech field. That is a very small job market, but it pays well. There are not enough biotech jobs to go around to all working class Americans.

There are a lot of office jobs and mostly, they pay crap. I worked at Blue Cross for years. I had the skills and could not get anywhere. I was passed over for raises and bonuses twice. Why? Because of office politics. My manager did not like me. I wasn't the only one. In fact, most of the people in my department were passed over for promotions, posted positions, raises and bonuses.

And there are other factors: temp workers/prison labor/guest workers driving wages down, rising costs of commodities, rising inflation rates, greater worker insecurities and stagnant wages all put the working class in a dangerous position.

Your logic is flawed and very myopic.

I believe actually that a society based on entitlements and welfare is a theoretic society. Yes it sounds great, help the poor and bring them out of poverty. But in actuality, America spends more and more on social programs each year without a reduction in spending you can't say this type of spending is effective in bringing people out of poverty.

Your rant of corporation and the such, nothing at all at about privatized companies. Corporations and privatized companies have to compete for workers. That's not theoretical, that's reality. Wages in this country are still outgrowing inflation. Dude, a corporate gig, you really don't have a clue how corporations work do you. I work for a corporation now, the their mission statement states they are dedicated to their customers, their shareholders and their employees. So your ranting about them not caring about their employees is just that ranting.

Did you happen to see the consumer price index that was realeased yesterday, no growth in consumer prices last month.
Well I don't know where you live but the biotech industry here is booming. As matter of fact, down I-270 we have an area called the biotech corridor.
 
I believe actually that a society based on entitlements and welfare is a theoretic society. Yes it sounds great, help the poor and bring them out of poverty. But in actuality, America spends more and more on social programs each year without a reduction in spending you can't say this type of spending is effective in bringing people out of poverty.

Your rant of corporation and the such, nothing at all at about privatized companies. Corporations and privatized companies have to compete for workers. That's not theoretical, that's reality. Wages in this country are still outgrowing inflation. Dude, a corporate gig, you really don't have a clue how corporations work do you. I work for a corporation now, the their mission statement states they are dedicated to their customers, their shareholders and their employees. So your ranting about them not caring about their employees is just that ranting.

Did you happen to see the consumer price index that was realeased yesterday, no growth in consumer prices last month.
Well I don't know where you live but the biotech industry here is booming. As matter of fact, down I-270 we have an area called the biotech corridor.
I have been working corporations since I was 18. I do know what I am talking about. Those mission statements are nothing more than fluff. It means nothing, unless you consider the order in which they state their priority...customer, shareholder, employee. The shareholder is above the employee.

But really, you are trying to disqualify my argument according to a mission statement written by some HR rep? That has nothing to do with that company's treatment of it's employees. The proof is in their actions and policies towards their employees.

I agree that our social programs are flawed. They should be based on education and certifications. All able-bodied and able-minded people on welfare should be directed into GED/college, license and certification programs to make them viable, skilled labor.

We could take the day care industry and make it a state program. Welfare moms can become state employees at these day cares (with free daycare for their own kids, a steady check and a pension). Those day cares could be offered to other working class people at a reduced rate or free.

There are many ideas we as a society can come up with, all of them positive and compassionate, and void of bigotry and division. Wouldn't that be better than us fighting over what is right or wrong...which boils down to personal ethics and opinion.

I live in the Boston area. We have a whole bio-tech industry here too. It is not enough to employ all of the under-employed and unemployed Americans.

Now I have worked for some pretty evil private companies and corporations (Blue Cross/Blue Shield, EquiServe, RentaVision, Verc Industries, TGIFridays, ConServe, etc). But I was fortunate to land a position in one of the few corporations that does care about it's employees. And I say one of the few because they are truly few and far between. They exist, but there are not many.

You worked for a few corporations. Why did you not stay with them?

I am all for private businesses and corporations making money. I do not believe they have to do it at the expense of their employees well being.

Why do you feel that employees are not as important as shareholders? Why do you take the human equation out of the argument?

We rail that we must support the troops, and we should because they are fellow Americans...but so are the homeless, the poor and the working class.
 
Your rant of corporation and the such, nothing at all at about privatized companies. Corporations and privatized companies have to compete for workers. That's not theoretical, that's reality. Wages in this country are still outgrowing inflation. Dude, a corporate gig, you really don't have a clue how corporations work do you. I work for a corporation now, the their mission statement states they are dedicated to their customers, their shareholders and their employees. So your ranting about them not caring about their employees is just that ranting.

You're kidding right? Employers have to compete for employees so they act nice? In a shrinking economy? With outsourced jobs? With no manufacturing jobs?

What planet do you live on?
 
You're kidding right? Employers have to compete for employees so they act nice? In a shrinking economy? With outsourced jobs? With no manufacturing jobs?

What planet do you live on?
He lives within commuting distance of I-270
 
Absolute BULLSHIT.

Unions in this country ARE big business. They are EXACTLY what they were created to fight.

Two things.

1. Unions in the US are weak. They may have presidents driving limousines but the unions themselves are very weak in terms of influence.

2. Unions in the US are "business" unions. They're not so much exactly what they were created to fight, but they're like remora on a shark, in a symbiotic relationship with the corporations (see 1. above)
 
And where does that leave everyone else? There needs to be a viable relationship between business owner & worker/consumer. Ford had it right when he paid his workers enough to buy his products.

When a corporation ceases to rely on domestic consumers to drive its business then it doesn't care what happens to its workers or the workers of other corporations.
 
I have been working corporations since I was 18. I do know what I am talking about. Those mission statements are nothing more than fluff. It means nothing, unless you consider the order in which they state their priority...customer, shareholder, employee. The shareholder is above the employee.

But really, you are trying to disqualify my argument according to a mission statement written by some HR rep? That has nothing to do with that company's treatment of it's employees. The proof is in their actions and policies towards their employees.

I agree that our social programs are flawed. They should be based on education and certifications. All able-bodied and able-minded people on welfare should be directed into GED/college, license and certification programs to make them viable, skilled labor.

We could take the day care industry and make it a state program. Welfare moms can become state employees at these day cares (with free daycare for their own kids, a steady check and a pension). Those day cares could be offered to other working class people at a reduced rate or free.

There are many ideas we as a society can come up with, all of them positive and compassionate, and void of bigotry and division. Wouldn't that be better than us fighting over what is right or wrong...which boils down to personal ethics and opinion.

I live in the Boston area. We have a whole bio-tech industry here too. It is not enough to employ all of the under-employed and unemployed Americans.

Now I have worked for some pretty evil private companies and corporations (Blue Cross/Blue Shield, EquiServe, RentaVision, Verc Industries, TGIFridays, ConServe, etc). But I was fortunate to land a position in one of the few corporations that does care about it's employees. And I say one of the few because they are truly few and far between. They exist, but there are not many.

You worked for a few corporations. Why did you not stay with them?

I am all for private businesses and corporations making money. I do not believe they have to do it at the expense of their employees well being.

Why do you feel that employees are not as important as shareholders? Why do you take the human equation out of the argument?

We rail that we must support the troops, and we should because they are fellow Americans...but so are the homeless, the poor and the working class.

I thought I told you in the last message, I work for a corporation now. I work for the largest owner and management company of multi-family housing in America. We have properties coast to coast. I can tell you this my company takes great pains to fairly pay its employees. Through profit sharing, annual bonuses and other such programs. I can tell you based on fact, that we are competing for people. There isn't enough qualified people to fill our positions. Right now my company is offering employee referal bonuses and has job fairs regularly. We actually just bumped up our index we use for paying new employees because we want to be even more competitive in MD/VA/DC market.
By the way, Mission Statements aren't written by HR reps they are written when the corporation is formed its part of their business plan. Although, some are revised due to changing conditions.
I don't really understand what corporations have to do with the problem with Social programs, sorry.
I think Social spending is a huge problem, when we spend 56% of the whole national budget on it. In my business, I see abuse of the social system everyday. I see people driving Escalades, watching huge flat screen TV's and other BS when they are receiving low income housing. Outside of work I know people who are drawing Social Security checks for disability who are just as healthy as me. Abuse of Social programs is a huge problem.
Another problem with social programs is that the government can't do it right. I believe social programs should be ran by private charties. Private charties have always done a better job than the government as far as effeciency.
The last problem I see with social programs is that it should be funded by voluntary taxes. It is stealing to take someone's money and give to another.
 
You're kidding right? Employers have to compete for employees so they act nice? In a shrinking economy? With outsourced jobs? With no manufacturing jobs?

What planet do you live on?

No, I'm not kidding, employers regularly do compensation surveys to find out what a competetive wage for their positions are. I wouldn't say this is a shrinking economy, its an economy in a natural downturn. Our economy has went up and down historically regardless of who's in office.
 
No, I'm not kidding, employers regularly do compensation surveys to find out what a competetive wage for their positions are. I wouldn't say this is a shrinking economy, its an economy in a natural downturn. Our economy has went up and down historically regardless of who's in office.

That's true on the compensation surveys, any decent HR/Recruiting type company will do that. Sorry if it's obvious, just wanted to support that point.
 
Taomon
"I agree that our social programs are flawed. They should be based on education and certifications. All able-bodied and able-minded people on welfare should be directed into GED/college, license and certification programs to make them viable, skilled labor.

We could take the day care industry and make it a state program. Welfare moms can become state employees at these day cares (with free daycare for their own kids, a steady check and a pension). Those day cares could be offered to other working class people at a reduced rate or free."


One of the coolest things you've ever said....:cool:

I believe the French have a their system set up to pay mothers for having children. Don't quote me on exact information, but from what I've read, the French will pay mothers to stay home and raise their children. (May be just rumor, but that's what I understand)
 

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