Social Security: Don't "Save" It; Raise It!

[georgephillip]

It sounds a lot like my grandmother.

She was so far to the Right that when FDR made SS mandatory, she didn't sign up.
Fast-forward four decades to the time she was no longer able to work.
She literally died from shame when the family discovered her decision.

If you think you don't need government, I hope you're better at financial planning than my grandmother was.

I have no great interest in surviving beyond my useful years if I can't afford to deal with my own finances. To that end, I have put aside 1 round of 230 grain jacketed hollowpoint ammunition in .45ACP with my initials engraved on the casing. THAT is my plan.

I don't think most people include the 230 grain option in their retirement plans.
You might be defining "useful years" to narrowly.
I'm finding that I can be far more useful to society after retirement from a regular job.

I also suspect you would have less need of that hollowpoint if your retirement funds were not under the complete control of Wall Street. Even when you factor in the current level of corruption in government, those working for the state aren't smart enough to steal as much from you as the FIRE sector can.

And they've only become bigger and smarter and more arrogant since November of 2008.

 

[georgephillip]

Another idiot 'author' who likes to spout off the 'fairly' bullshit... and the king idiot georgephillip amorously following like an ignorant puppy

Why am I not surprised??

Because you bumped your head?
Again!

The rich are making it very clear they are finding less and less need for US workers and consumers.

Doesn't that worry you?

 

[Polk]

I strongly recommend the Republican nominee run in 2012 on a platform of eliminating Social Security.

 

[Zander]

The solution is personal responsibility. Stop relying on government solutions to personal problems. It's not radical, we've survived as a species for thousands of years, we'll continue to survive, even without Social Security. Stop being whiny bitches and blaming others for your own failures. Own your own life. You already won the "birth" lottery just by being born in this country. If you can't make something of it, buy a mirror and blame that person. That's who let you down.

If someone steals your car at gunpoint, would you rely on government for a solution?

There seems to be a small moral distinction between thugs who use guns and thugs who use credit default swaps or low interest rates from central banks to borrow vast sums of money and speculate in commodities like food and oil.

Personal responsibility won't compensate for an economic system designed to cheat millions of productive individuals out of thirty years of productivity gains. If someone stole 8% of your earnings between 1973 and 2005 with a handgun, would you whine or buy a mirror?

Possibly you think the rich are through stealing?
They're not.

George, I am one of those "rich" people that you demonize. I own a company that employs about 70 people. They get a fair shake from me and a good life - all they have to do is a a good job. I take full responsibility for everything that happens in my life, EVERYTHING.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

How does that sound to you?

Ridiculous.

Social Security is merely society’s way of protecting itself from the excessive expense of caring for those unable to care for themselves once too old to work. Social Security is a tax as valid as any other and constitutionally appropriate: “The tax imposed on employers by Title VIII of the Social Security Act of August 14, 1935 [49 Stat. at L. 620, chap. 531, 42 U. S. C. chap. 7 (Supp.)], is an excise tax and thus within the power conferred upon Congress by Art. 1, § 8, of the Constitution, to lay and collect duties, imposts, and excises…The scheme of benefits created by the provisions of Title II is not in contravention of the limitations of the Tenth Amendment. Congress may spend money in aid of the 'general welfare.' Constitution, art. 1, § 8; United States v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 65, 56 S. Ct. 312, 319, 102 A.L.R. 914. Steward Machine Co. v. Davis…” Helvering v. Davis (1937).

To fund a program designed to ensure elderly Americana have the means to be cared for is a socially responsible act of government, as much as it is to tax to ensure the up-keep of roads and bridges. Consequently, since we all benefit from the program – as either recipients of the program’s payments or as taxpayers not overburdened by excessive expense – it is logical and appropriate for everyone to contribute accordingly.

This is the nature of a modern, civilized society.

 

[georgephillip]

"And where has the money from the extra productivity gone? It’s gone right to the top, to the top few percent.

Really?

Health And Human Services
2012 Budget


892 BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBillions $

.

Really, what?

Compare the US GDP in 1973 in bbbbbbiilllions against 2003 GDP in bbbiiilllions.
Factor in productivity gains of 55% or more.
Then consider the 8% decline in real hourly earnings most workers experienced during that time.

Where did those tttttrrriilllliiiiooon$ go?

Health and Human Services?

 

[georgephillip]

Whenever I read these criticism of social security and the desire to opt out, I wonder how these people were raised, what was their family like, and grandparents like that so narrow minded and cold hearted a specimen came from all of them? How narrow can one's life be when the idea of helping people is wrong. Of course the reasoning is that it is the government doing this, or it was a democratic president who started it, or they won't be able to benefit from it, but SS has probably done more good in this nation than any charity or religion or philanthropic endeavor ever did or ever will. Government is all the people and without it chaos would reign, charities do some good but often come with lots of strings attached. It is truly telling how far America has moved from it principles of the constitution of all the people, to a greedy, self centered mindless myopia that only thinks of things in how they will benefit them. No wonder America is moving towards third world status, our people today, many of them, have third world minds and values. All the people who have just a slightly better life due to social security insurance can only hope the America's heart changes.

All of us seem to "wall off" certain core beliefs our ideology is built upon.
Facts don't resonate and reason itself is viewed with great skepticism.

Apparently some of us base our moral foundation on empathy while others base theirs on obedience to a legitimate authority. Maybe the only place we can begin trying to reconcile those two opposites is online.

It certainly could not happen if we were all in the same room at the same time.

 

[Anachronism]

I don't think most people include the 230 grain option in their retirement plans.

That's their problem, not mine.

You might be defining "useful years" to narrowly. I'm finding that I can be far more useful to society after retirement from a regular job.

Once I can no longer care for myself and fund my own existance, it's time to check out. Whether that's at 55 or 65 or 85.

I also suspect you would have less need of that hollowpoint if your retirement funds were not under the complete control of Wall Street. Even when you factor in the current level of corruption in government, those working for the state aren't smart enough to steal as much from you as the FIRE sector can.

What retirement funds? I have sparse retirement plans at all. I don't intend to ever "retire". Then again I don't really suspect I'll live long enough to even consider it.

Ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than the government stealing money from ME to pay for someone else's retirement.

Social Security is merely society’s way of protecting itself from the excessive expense of caring for those unable to care for themselves once too old to work.

Once they are unable to care for themselves, have not prepared for that eventuality, and have no friends or family capable and willing to do so, it's time for them to move on; not to extend their burden to the taxpayers.

To fund a program designed to ensure elderly Americana have the means to be cared for is a socially responsible act of government, as much as it is to tax to ensure the up-keep of roads and bridges. Consequently, since we all benefit from the program – as either recipients of the program’s payments or as taxpayers not overburdened by excessive expense – it is logical and appropriate for everyone to contribute accordingly.

I will see no benefit from the program. I see no benefit from the vast majority of programs the Federal Government takes my money for. I'm not a believer that it is the Government's responsibility to equalize results in life.

This is the nature of a modern, civilized society.

Please show me where I have ever suggested that I'm in favor of a Modern OR Civilized society, nevermind both of them.

 

[midcan5]

[It's not about helping people. It's about BEING FORCED to help people. It's also about helping people who DO NOT DESERVE IT. THOSE are the issues.

All tax is about supporting the society and infrastructure that you live in and participate in. If you truly don't want to be a member of American society and accept its responsibilities, find a place where there are none, and they live as well or better than we do. Let us know where that is, we look forward to hearing from you and if you move there keep us updated. You may start a mass movement and that could be a good thing.

I put into social security for 14 years and after changing jobs, I was opted out by the government because I am a teacher (Windfall Elimination Provision). I just lost all of that "savings." .....

No you didn't, you just aren't paying into the system, so you don't benefit as much. Windfall Elimination Provision

 

[Anachronism]

All tax is about supporting the society and infrastructure that you live in and participate in. If you truly don't want to be a member of American society and accept its responsibilities, find a place where there are none, and they live as well or better than we do. Let us know where that is, we look forward to hearing from you and if you move there keep us updated. You may start a mass movement and that could be a good thing.

The "responsibilities" of an American citizen? Please. Don't make me laugh. The vast majority of American citizens have no idea what Resonsibility, Duty or Decency are. If they did, they would have revolted a century ago.

Trust me, I keep looking for somewhere else to be. Places like Saudi Arabia look better and better by the day. If any of those places allowed gun ownership I'd have been there YEARS AGO. You can keep your technology. You can keep your "civilization". I'll take common decency and values every day of the week.

 

[editec]

Social security was one of the best inventions of mankind.

It serves not only the invididuals, but the society as a whole, since no society is going to do well if too many of its people are berift of income.

Sadly for we Americans, the Feds started borrowing from Social secirity rathe than paying its bills as it spend the money.

So now we have social security system that possesses 4 trillion dollars in US bonds, and a US government that owes (in aggregate) $14 trillion.

But here's what we all need to realize...the US cannot renege on that $4 trillion it owes to payers of social security, unless it ALSO reneges on the bonds it owes to our banks, our insuracne companies, our pension funds, and foreignh investors.

Social security is NOT broke.

The US Federal government might be.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

With a federal tax rate of nearly 15% of US GDP, some of us can more than afford to provide seniors with more than $10,000 a year to live on.

It's not a matter of whether we CAN or CAN'T afford it, George. For some of us it's a matter that we don't WANT to have anything to do with it.

I would suggest that probably 20% of the current SS payers would OPT OUT immediately if given the option to not pay anything in and not get anything out. I know I would and a large number of others I know would.

Now, with that option, I'd be more than happy to see another option that would let people like you pay MORE than they are required to as well.

How does that sound to you?

It sounds a lot like my grandmother.

She was so far to the Right that when FDR made SS mandatory, she didn't sign up.
Fast-forward four decades to the time she was no longer able to work.
She literally died from shame when the family discovered her decision.

If you think you don't need government, I hope you're better at financial planning than my grandmother was.

How does one not sign up for something that is mandatory? I didn't have to sign up... they just started ripping money out of my checks when I started working. Died from shame?

Sounds like bullshit to me.

 

[Anachronism]

Social security was one of the best inventions of mankind.

It serves not only the invididuals, but the society as a whole, since no society is going to do well if too many of its people are berift of income.

I have to disagree. In fact I believe it's one of the WORST ideas mankind has ever come up with. Right there with Feminism, Pacifism, and Gun Control

Social security is NOT broke. The US Federal government might be.

GOOD. Then let the Federal Government go bankrupt. Let it fall like the house of cards it is so that we may build a new and better Government built on Morality, Values, and Decency instead of the one we currently have built on Lies, Deceit, and Immorality.

 

[DiamondDave]

With the understanding there will be no government bail outs for bad investment decisions or Wall Street pillage?

Definitely. Those of us who opt out would have no safety net to catch us should we fall.

AND... not deduction by government at ALL for SS... because we know that government will indeed try and keep deducting to keep a flow into their trough... let only those who wish to participate in SS fund SS...

Oh.. and also... enact legislation that prevents the government from using SS as their pet project slush fund

 

[DiamondDave]

Another idiot 'author' who likes to spout off the 'fairly' bullshit... and the king idiot georgephillip amorously following like an ignorant puppy

Why am I not surprised??

Because you bumped your head?
Again!

The rich are making it very clear they are finding less and less need for US workers and consumers.

Doesn't that worry you?

Your ignorant assumption based on a whack-job author's bullshit assumption does not equate to fact nor truth

 

[georgephillip]

Social security was one of the best inventions of mankind.

It serves not only the invididuals, but the society as a whole, since no society is going to do well if too many of its people are berift of income.

Sadly for we Americans, the Feds started borrowing from Social secirity rathe than paying its bills as it spend the money.

So now we have social security system that possesses 4 trillion dollars in US bonds, and a US government that owes (in aggregate) $14 trillion.

But here's what we all need to realize...the US cannot renege on that $4 trillion it owes to payers of social security, unless it ALSO reneges on the bonds it owes to our banks, our insuracne companies, our pension funds, and foreignh investors.

Social security is NOT broke.

The US Federal government might be.

We should also never forget our ever-deserving rich (individual and corporate) citizens who have patriotically purchased US Treasuries, often with money "borrowed" by our central bank at near-zero rates of interest.

Four decades ago government taxed the richest individuals and corporations to obtain its operating capital.

Today government borrows from the rich and compensates for declining revenues by cutting "entitlements" that workers have paid into for as long as they've been working.

Think it can't get worse?
Continue "choosing" between Democrat OR Republican in the voting booth.

 

[georgephillip]

It's not a matter of whether we CAN or CAN'T afford it, George. For some of us it's a matter that we don't WANT to have anything to do with it.

I would suggest that probably 20% of the current SS payers would OPT OUT immediately if given the option to not pay anything in and not get anything out. I know I would and a large number of others I know would.

Now, with that option, I'd be more than happy to see another option that would let people like you pay MORE than they are required to as well.

How does that sound to you?

It sounds a lot like my grandmother.

She was so far to the Right that when FDR made SS mandatory, she didn't sign up.
Fast-forward four decades to the time she was no longer able to work.
She literally died from shame when the family discovered her decision.

If you think you don't need government, I hope you're better at financial planning than my grandmother was.

How does one not sign up for something that is mandatory? I didn't have to sign up... they just started ripping money out of my checks when I started working. Died from shame?

Sounds like bullshit to me.

Maybe the computers were a little slower in 1935?

"The Social Security Act was drafted during Roosevelt's first term by the President's Committee on Economic Security, under Frances Perkins, and passed by Congress as part of the New Deal.

"The act was an attempt to limit what were seen as dangers in the modern American life, including old age, poverty, unemployment, and the burdens of widows and fatherless children.

"By signing this act on August 14, 1935, President Roosevelt became the first president to advocate federal assistance for the elderly."

Or maybe not

"Most women and minorities were excluded from the benefits of unemployment insurance and old age pensions. Employment definitions reflected typical white male categories and patterns.[13] Job categories that were not covered by the act included workers in agricultural labor, domestic service, government employees, and many teachers, nurses, hospital employees, librarians, and social workers."

My grandmother was a LVN who spent her productive years working for some of the richest parasites in San Diego county. When she retired in June of 1966 she had absolutely no income coming in. She hid that fact from her family as long as she could and then died within a matter of weeks after we found out.

btw, you and my grandmother would have had a lot to talk about.
She also thought I was full of bull.
I hope you're better at retirement planning than she was.

Social Security (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

With the understanding there will be no government bail outs for bad investment decisions or Wall Street pillage?

Definitely. Those of us who opt out would have no safety net to catch us should we fall.

AND... not deduction by government at ALL for SS... because we know that government will indeed try and keep deducting to keep a flow into their trough... let only those who wish to participate in SS fund SS...

Oh.. and also... enact legislation that prevents the government from using SS as their pet project slush fund

The solution you and Anachronism have proposed has my vote.

How many of the current DC incumbents, Republican AND Democrat; "conservative" and "liberal" are likely to go along?

How many "new" Republicans AND Democrats would be likely to enact legislation "that prevents the government from using SS as their pet project slush fund."

 

[georgephillip]

"But we can"t afford it."

With a federal tax rate of nearly 15% of US GDP, some of us can more than afford to provide seniors with more than $10,000 a year to live on. Unless you're expecting Congress to manufacture a new IRA that grows hair, the best option to elevate the 39% of the average workers preretirement earnings that Social Security currently pays is to "find an additional 5 percent of taxable payroll, or find the money elsewhere."

Lifting the cap on payroll taxes without raising benefits to those above it provides an additional 2.32%

"Dedicating revenues from the estate tax at its 2009 levels to Social Security gets another half percent. A few other tweaks, like covering new public employees, add another 0.42 percent.

"The remainder can be found by raising the payroll tax by roughly 1 percentage point for both employees and employers..."

"Retirees today are shortchanged on Social Security because they have been shortchanged on wages for their entire working lives.

"The labor economist Richard B. Freeman points out that the hourly earnings of workers dropped by 8 percent from 1973 to 2005 while productivity shot up 55 percent or more.

"The United States is one of the few developed countries where workers are routinely cheated of a share in higher productivity.

"And where has the money from the extra productivity gone? It’s gone right to the top, to the top few percent.

"If wages had been paid fairly based on productivity, there would have been enough money subject to the payroll tax to avoid even a modest shortfall."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/opinion/20geoghegan.html?hp

Damn it George! No matter how many times you ask, you are not entitled to MY money. Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Bugger off!

Damn it, Sooner!

Speaking on behalf of all "Boomers", I'm not going anywhere 'till I spend all of your Social Security benefits.

Think of it as Natural Selection 2.0.

"Bugger?"

Do they say that in Oklahoma?