So you call these freedom fighters?

[ajwps]

Actually there are a few rules that soldiers live by. Do not target civilians and try to limit civilian casualties. But, even with precision guided munitions shit happens. All you can do is try your best and hope the civilians are smart enough to stay away from the targets.

Really. Exactly what rules did the soldiers of the Taliban live by when they blew up the World Trade Building in New York? What soldiers rules were used to cut the heads off living contract workers in Iraq or on Israeli children school buses or in restaurants, etc when the brave soldiers of Hamas and the other Arab armies of liberation blew them up?

Are you saying that soldiers on one side of a war should adhere to a few rules of conduct while the soldiers of the other side are free to kill as many civillians as possible.

In my opinion, the Islamic terrorist army of world liberation are following their own rules of war which are also fair and just in their eyes and bible.

It is simply a matter that to win any war, you must adjust to the situations you are confronted with and be respected by your enemies for using their own rules of war against them.

Mahaama Ghandi did just that against the British imperialist army in India. His pacifism did not win India for the native peoples but what did was the fact that the British relied on their Indian native army groups to keep India in the British realm. When the British realized that their British trained Indian army was no longer to fight against their own people, the British wisely withdrew.

Once America or Israel learns the new rules of Islamic terrorist war, they too will be able to end this terrible war of civilizations.

WAR NOR ITS RULES ARE CIVILIZED​

 

[Huckleburry]

How do you know so much about those Iraqi houses not used in terrorist operations? How do you know how many of those destroyed from the sky are terrorists are not? Where do you get your information? .

A good friend of mine worked for Military inteligence, he wrote his dissertation in Arabic and did some work for the pentagon after september 11. Some of my family members worked in Gaza in the early 90's establishing education programs for women and children but were pulled out when the region become too unstable. The Middle East has been of great interest in my family and social circle for quite some time and a number of them speak Araic. I read the Economist, The Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal (Wed and Saturday only) and I skim the NYT every moring but, in general, I find alot of American news to be pretty biased one way or the other so I try and look elsewhere. I don't have a TV so I can't watch News.

You failed to mention two very important words in your statement. "Second selective targeting of schools and orphanges, killing women and children, and spreading general chaos are not standard military practice; they are by definition terrorist acts."

Your right I should have been more specific in my statement, however in the months leading up to the war in Iraq there were several reports of Isrealie tanks firing on schools and orphanges. I will send you the reference on tuesday evening if you like.

Wouldn't it be nice to selectively avoid killing innocents and just stick to killing those who shoot or blow up your own soldiers? But you know what, that is the hell of war. We found that out on 09/11.

Who cares what the blue States socialist newspaper declares about the unalienable rights of Arabs in Israel to the land of the Jewish people?.

The Blue States are still a very important part of the country, regarless of whether or not you agree with them.

You say that in the Palestine/Israel ( a misnomer) conflict both sides are driven by a desparate need to survive, a natural instinct......

The Arabs (you call palestinians) are driven not by a need to survive but more like a need to be Shahida or marytrs and die for their god allah. The various Arab groups living in Israel don't care one wit for a land of palestine or for a seat on the planet Uranus.

Palestinians are not ethnic Arabs, actually they are genetically closer to the Isrealies.

Their corrupt Arab leaders and the Arab countries that support them financially and also by Qur'anic edict desire only to kill the Jews. Arabs (pals included) don't care about a tiny strip of land against the edge of the Mediterranian Sea. The PLO Arabs have been buffeted and tossed out of every Arab country in the entire middle east. They are just pawns in the war of life and death of the Jewish people and Israel.

Your right here. The Palestinians are looked down upon by the greater Arab world. However I will point out that the Palestinians did not start killing the Jews until after WWII when the British created Isreal and relocated hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

The Geneva Convention in a fighting war is not valid when only one side tries to adhere to them. Give me one major war in which the Geneva Accords were used to a final decisive victory?.

I think that the Geneva Accords are ridiculous. like you said war is nor its rules are civilized.

America is quickly learning that the only rules of war are the ones your antagonists use against you. Did you notice that in the video in my initial post on this thread, the Americans carefully avoided blowing up their Mosques even though they know that the Arabs (Iraqi, Syrian, Lebanese, Iranian and other foreigners) use as weapon storage sites and places to hide knowing that the moral Americans will not attack them in their churches which are off limits.

While this is difficult I think that this is the right thing for American soilders to be doing. We must, whenever possible, excercise restraint when fighting abroad. If we begin fighting a total war then we will find ourselves in a vietnamesque situation in which neither side want us their. If this happen all prospects of victory dissapear.


Any real fighting war has its own rules and cannot be played like the Queensbury Rules.[/QUOTE]

 

[ajwps]

A good friend of mine worked for Military inteligence, he wrote his dissertation in Arabic and did some work for the pentagon after september 11. Some of my family members worked in Gaza in the early 90's establishing education programs for women and children but were pulled out when the region become too unstable. The Middle East has been of great interest in my family and social circle for quite some time and a number of them speak Araic. I read the Economist, The Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal (Wed and Saturday only) and I skim the NYT every moring but, in general, I find alot of American news to be pretty biased one way or the other so I try and look elsewhere. I don't have a TV so I can't watch News.

So you have a friend who worked for military intelligence and wrote his disseration in Arabic and also did work for the pentagon after 9/11. So your family worked in Gaza and was pulled out because of westerners being killed by the Arabs. So you read some middle eastern news papers and the NY Times. Thats nice...

Let me then ask you once again. How do you know about targeted Iraqi houses not being used in terrorist operations? How do you know how many of civilian vs insurgent soldiers were destroyed from the sky? Where do you get information about your previous definitive statements that innocents and their houses were being purposely destroyed by Americans from the sky?

Your right I should have been more specific in my statement, however in the months leading up to the war in Iraq there were several reports of Isrealie tanks firing on schools and orphanges. I will send you the reference on tuesday evening if you like.

Reports? There is an old saying, 'believe nothing of what you hear or read and only half of what you see with your own eyes.' What you mainly have now are news services that create biased news instead of honestly reporting what is actually happening on the ground. I too have been in Israel many times. I have met Israeli soldiers who could not kill murdering Arabs because it was abhorent to them.

If pockets of Arab terrorists hid in shcools or orphanages or under their beds, war requires that you must destroy those who hide behind the innocent or more innocents will be murdered at their hands. I doubt if you can PROVE that Israeli soldiers intentionally fired on innocent school children or orphans.

The Blue States are still a very important part of the country, regarless of whether or not you agree with them.

The blue States and the red States are always part of America no matter for whom they vote or believe. It was Geraldine Feraro suggested on the Larry King Show that the blue States should cede from the Union because they did not get their favorite democrat elected.

Palestinians are not ethnic Arabs, actually they are genetically closer to the Isrealies.

Could you specify the genetic marker along the ethnic Arab chromosome that genetically links them to the Hebrew people or for that matter to the Eskimo people? I am not talking about the common chromosome markers that define homosapiens.

Your right here. The Palestinians are looked down upon by the greater Arab world. However I will point out that the Palestinians did not start killing the Jews until after WWII when the British created Isreal and relocated hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Can you kindly point out exactly which Arabs were palestinians with a sovereign state of Palestine before, during or after WW2?

I think that the Geneva Accords are ridiculous. like you said war is nor its rules are civilized.

I agree. The Geneva Accords try to civilize war or the killing of one group of people by another when there is nothing civilized about this most human condition.

While this is difficult I think that this is the right thing for American soilders to be doing. We must, whenever possible, excercise restraint when fighting abroad. If we begin fighting a total war then we will find ourselves in a vietnamesque situation in which neither side want us their. If this happen all prospects of victory dissapear.

I cannot agree with your statement. Why do you equate fighting a total war with a Vietnamese situation? In WW1 and WW2 there were total world wars and nobody wanted us to be there nor did we want to be there but necessity required that we preserve civilization and we went to these wars.

Actually because we did not exercise restraint in these wars, final victory over the enemy became reality. Mr. Bush was forced into these wars against an enemy who attacked our shores and our people from ambush. The mere fact that Bush is taking a strong position against these primordial people (his actions for reasons not understood) civilization may just be saved from extinction.

Any real fighting war has its own rules and cannot be played by the Queensbury Rules. War is evil and abhorent but mankind has not lost the instinct to destroy each other.

 

[Doc Holiday]

There were no Palestinians until they decided to call themselves that in the 1960s in order to try to gain sympathy. The area labelled Palestine was actually part of Transjordan and the occupants considered themselves Jordanian. Why do you think they ran to Jordan after the stae of Israel was formed? Why do you think Jordan took them in? It's because they were Jordanian.

 

[Huckleburry]

Gaza is part of Palestine, not Iraq. Americans are not attacking Palestinians the Israelis are and they have a stated public policy of destroying the houses of any family member even remotely related to a terrorist.
I am not a geneticist, however a quick review of history will show you which groups were where and when. http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

And seriously fuck Geraldine Feraro. As for bit about American soldiers exercising restraint in Iraq. I am afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. WWI and II were special cases because they were conflicts between large, formal militaries. War was waged between armies, albeit often times civilians were caught in the crossfire were as Vietnam was fought against a guerilla force. In waging a highly destructive war the Vietcong were able to more effectively recruit. I would equate the conflict in Iraq more closely to Vietnam than either world war. We are again fighting a highly irregular force on foreign soil. If Americans begin waging total war then I believe we will only aid the insurgents in their recruiting efforts.

 

[ajwps]

There were no Palestinians until they decided to call themselves that in the 1960s in order to try to gain sympathy. The area labelled Palestine was actually part of Transjordan and the occupants considered themselves Jordanian. Why do you think they ran to Jordan after the stae of Israel was formed? Why do you think Jordan took them in? It's because they were Jordanian.

Actually Moshe Dayan, a one-eyed Israeli general invited the fleeing Arabs back into Israel following one of the wars waged against Israel. The Arabs were fleeing because they earnestly believed that Israel would do to them what they had planned for the Jews once the Arab armies had beaten the Jews.

Now Israel reaps the decision by this one general.

 

[ajwps]

Gaza is part of Palestine, not Iraq. Americans are not attacking Palestinians the Israelis are and they have a stated public policy of destroying the houses of any family member even remotely related to a terrorist.

Gaza is part of what? Please give a date a sovereign Arab palestine declared themselves a world state in Gaza or anywhere else?

I am not a geneticist, however a quick review of history will show you which groups were where and when. http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

A quick review of history will tell you that Germany and France have changed hands many times during local wars over long eons. Does that make Frenchmen to be closely related on the genetic marker as Germans? Anyway, what does it matter, the bible says Esau, illigitimate Egyptian son of Abraham went off and married some Canaanites. His ancestors were said to be the Arabs but actually we know now that Esau's progeny became the Roman Catholics. History and people movements are funny that way.

And seriously fuck Geraldine Feraro. As for bit about American soldiers exercising restraint in Iraq. I am afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. WWI and II were special cases because they were conflicts between large, formal militaries. War was waged between armies, albeit often times civilians were caught in the crossfire were as Vietnam was fought against a guerilla force. In waging a highly destructive war the Vietcong were able to more effectively recruit. I would equate the conflict in Iraq more closely to Vietnam than either world war. We are again fighting a highly irregular force on foreign soil. If Americans begin waging total war then I believe we will only aid the insurgents in their recruiting efforts.

Again we must disagree. War between large formal armies and wars between foreign Americans against indigenous Vietnamese communists were both real wars. The war today is a non-conventional world war between formal and informal armies. The Islamic insurgents need nothing to prod them into recruiting more of the same. The war waged by America simply limits their numbers as well as their organizational skills.

To know the Islamic fanatics is to know their ultimate goal whether you attack them or you wait for them to attack you.

This is a real WW4. For WW3 was the cold war between the west and east which is supposedly now over and we supposedly won.

We all might just as well get used to this fact.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Huckleburry
I was going to tag you for your stupidity but it looks like ajwps took care of business.

 

[Huckleburry]

Thanks Doc,
Its nice to know that folks here are paying attention. Also, you should check out the link I posted, I found it to be pretty informative. The site is a bit biased but the timeline is pretty acurate I think. The one thing I know for sure about the Middle East is that is a fucking mess and had been for a long time.

 

[supermarine]

Moreover the torture of Iraqi prisoners is most certainly prohibited in the Geneva Conventions yet we did so any way.

DUDE U FUCKING ASSHOLE, THOSE WERE NOT ATTROCITIES. All they fucking did was pile them up naked and put panties on their head. big fucking deal. The fucking news media completely focused on this for a good 2 months, while poor civilians in israel are getting themselves blown up by the palastinians. How come the media always focuses on every little bad thing that we do, and then immediatly sweep those terrorist acts under the rug.
AND ALSO U FAT FUCK, THOSE "POOR PRISONERS" WERE ACTUALLY CAPTURED TERRORISTS, AND THE GENEVA CONVENTION SHOULD NOT APPLY TO THEM. IF I HAD IT MY WAY I WOULD HAVE THEIR BALLS CHOPPED OFF AND STUFFED UP THEIR ASSES! SO WHY WONT U SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LEAVE OUR SOLDIERS ALONE!

 

[Huckleburry]

DUDE U FUCKING ASSHOLE, THOSE WERE NOT ATTROCITIES. All they fucking did was pile them up naked and put panties on their head. !

Could you please cite this statement, everything I have read reported the situation to be far more severe and I would really like to know that this was not the case from a credible news source.

while poor civilians in Israel are getting themselves blown up by the Palestinians.

This conflict is a millennia old, do you really think all of the blame rests with one group. What about the Settlements? What about the Politicians in Israel advocating the total eradication of every Palestinian Man, Women, and Child? Or how about the air strikes that vaporize city blocks? Do you really think every A-Rab is some murky terrorist hiding in hash bars and planning the demise of the world? I have some bad news Ferdinand the world has become a bit more complicated since the fourteenth century. Dissenting opinions count. The humble minions (thanks to the likes of Jefferson, Hamilton, Washington and the rest of the gang) have been empowered. Thanks to the sacrifice of many brave Americans the days of sit down and shut the fuck up are gone. That is in essence the concept of freedom, and yes I will defend it should it ever actually be threatened.

How come the media always focuses on every little bad thing that we do, and then immediately sweep those terrorist acts under the rug.

Because that is what sells. If good news sold then news casters would talk about sunny days and kittens being rescued from trees. Our appetite for good news, however, is quite meek.

AND ALSO U FAT FUCK

I am 6 feet 165 pounds. How much do you weigh?

IF I HAD IT MY WAY I WOULD HAVE THEIR BALLS CHOPPED OFF AND STUFFED UP THEIR ASSES! SO WHY WONT U SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LEAVE OUR SOLDIERS ALONE!

If you had everything your way we would live under a dictator not a democracy, so fortunately you don't have it your way.

Terrorism is a noxious weed. Defeating it requires poising the roots and stopping the seeds. Our action against the Taliban proved that we are able to attack the roots. Thus far our action in Iraq, and our unwavering support of Israel has demonstrated that we are unable to prevent the seeds from spreading. Does this mean that we must kiss the world’s ass? Of course not. It does mean that our military must hold it’s self to a far higher ethical standard. It does mean that our politicians must allow a world, with more experience in the ravages of war, to be hesitant about committing, our diplomats must be as valued as our military. Our soft power must be as much of an asset as our hard power. It is a big fucking deal that we treated prisoners like this because we claim to be the beacon of light and hope for the rest of the world. Beacons of light and hope do not pile people up naked or play dress up with them. These are the types of abuses that beacons of light and hope seek to eliminate. We are in Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people from the bonds of tyranny. This is a noble end and noble ends require noble means. You may not give a fuck about the war on terror so long as the media keeps feeding you live shots of US air superiority. I do give a fuck, too this end I have a problem with Prisoner abuses.

 

[Patriot]

Huckleburry,


I have a severe problem with people like you going after or complaining about so called prisoner abuse when I have yet to hear what you plan on doing to those that hacked off Nick Bergs head. Or how about all the kidnapping and torture of civilians that came to help rebuild Iraq?

You seem to only want to focus on big bad mean America. The same America that affords you the right to say such stupid things. For someone who spews shit from their mouth about those who protect others you can take your so called thoughtfulness for terrorists and shove it up your ass.


Oh and those terrorists in the prison deserved panties on their heads and in fact got off easy since they will probably be released from prison to only go and kill more Iraqis and maybe a couple of Americans too.

 

[sagegirl]

First of all, the Palestinians don't have any schools for the Israelis to blow up. If they do, all the schools there teach is reverance for the Jihad and how to become a matyr. So they are involved in terrorist operations.
And there are rules for war called the Geneva Conventions, although we seem to be the only ones that follow them. And you still do not target innocent civilians and call yourself a warrior, soldier or freedom fighter. If you specifically target innocent civilians, you are a terrorist.
And the Palestinians had a chance for peace and 98% of what they had asked for and Arafat turned it down and the Palestinian people backed him. The Palestinian people willing enjoyed going into the intifada and seem to revel in killing themselves. The Israelis just want to live in peace.

I disagree with you on several issues here....it doesnt really matter if you "target" or "specifically target" civilians. When your tactics end up killing civilians they become victims of war.....who do you think we killed when we dropped those atom bombs over in Japan.....??
War has always been billed as an honorable way to die, sadly. Martyr or hero, again, it is just semantics. Those guys going onto the beach on D Day, a soldier charging on the field at Gettysburg, the American Indians fighting to preserve way of life and culture, even a Palestinian getting on a bus wearing a bomb, even a fanatic on an airplane, they all share in the madness that is war.....their willingness to accept the deceptively provocative idea that by participating in killing and dying themselves the world will know peace, fairness, freedom, and be better off. Its been going on for ten thousand years and we aint there yet.
Secondly, I do think the Israelis want peace. Did you know that a great deal of the trouble with the settlement issue comes from Jews who immigrate to Israel from the US.

 

[CSM]

Did you know that a great deal of the trouble with the settlement issue comes from Jews who immigrate to Israel from the US.

Ah yes, those evil Americans again....

 

[Doc Holiday]

I disagree with you on several issues here....it doesnt really matter if you "target" or "specifically target" civilians. When your tactics end up killing civilians they become victims of war.....who do you think we killed when we dropped those atom bombs over in Japan.....??
War has always been billed as an honorable way to die, sadly. Martyr or hero, again, it is just semantics. Those guys going onto the beach on D Day, a soldier charging on the field at Gettysburg, the American Indians fighting to preserve way of life and culture, even a Palestinian getting on a bus wearing a bomb, even a fanatic on an airplane, they all share in the madness that is war.....their willingness to accept the deceptively provocative idea that by participating in killing and dying themselves the world will know peace, fairness, freedom, and be better off. Its been going on for ten thousand years and we aint there yet.
Secondly, I do think the Israelis want peace. Did you know that a great deal of the trouble with the settlement issue comes from Jews who immigrate to Israel from the US.

First of all, when we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, we dropped them on a country that was mobilizing every person that could carry a weapon to repel the upcoming invasion. So, how much more damage would have been done if we had invaded, starting off with the preinvasion bombardment, followed by the close air support and the house to house fighting throughout the whole island? I think there would have been millions of Japanese dead with a US invasion, compared to thousands dead from the atomic bomb drops.
Second, when someone decides to attack you, you can either fight back or roll over and be their bitch. It would be nice if the world could get along, but the US becoming a pacifist nation isn't going to start a worldwide trend.
Third, what's your source for the information that Jews from America are responsible for the resistance to the peace settlement, Al-Jazerra? The Israelis are looking for a peace settlement that guarantees their right to exist. So far, the Palestinians have been unwilling to grant that right. That's the hold up, Israel will not trade territory unless they get a concession recognizing their right to exist.

 

[dilloduck]

First of all, when we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, we dropped them on a country that was mobilizing every person that could carry a weapon to repel the upcoming invasion. So, how much more damage would have been done if we had invaded, starting off with the preinvasion bombardment, followed by the close air support and the house to house fighting throughout the whole island? I think there would have been millions of Japanese dead with a US invasion, compared to thousands dead from the atomic bomb drops.
Second, when someone decides to attack you, you can either fight back or roll over and be their bitch. It would be nice if the world could get along, but the US becoming a pacifist nation isn't going to start a worldwide trend.
Third, what's your source for the information that Jews from America are responsible for the resistance to the peace settlement, Al-Jazerra? The Israelis are looking for a peace settlement that guarantees their right to exist. So far, the Palestinians have been unwilling to grant that right. That's the hold up, Israel will not trade territory unless they get a concession recognizing their right to exist.

The "hold up" changes all the time depending on which party controls Israel.

 

[sagegirl]

First of all, when we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, we dropped them on a country that was mobilizing every person that could carry a weapon to repel the upcoming invasion. So, how much more damage would have been done if we had invaded, starting off with the preinvasion bombardment, followed by the close air support and the house to house fighting throughout the whole island? I think there would have been millions of Japanese dead with a US invasion, compared to thousands dead from the atomic bomb drops.
Second, when someone decides to attack you, you can either fight back or roll over and be their bitch. It would be nice if the world could get along, but the US becoming a pacifist nation isn't going to start a worldwide trend.
Third, what's your source for the information that Jews from America are responsible for the resistance to the peace settlement, Al-Jazerra? The Israelis are looking for a peace settlement that guarantees their right to exist. So far, the Palestinians have been unwilling to grant that right. That's the hold up, Israel will not trade territory unless they get a concession recognizing their right to exist.

My source for the problems caused by immigrating Jews is from an American born Jew, he has family, native Israelis, still living in Israel, so he knows more about this than I do. I know it isnt reported in the us press but a person could probably investigate the claim. I do not think he has any "ax to grind" and has no reason to lie about it. He says the native Israelis do want a peace settlement ..and do want to live safely... and do want to end all the fighting and killing.... and end living in fear. Doesnt seem unreasonable to me.
Sort of the same thing that finally brought about an end to the violence in Ireland...people just finally get sick of the killing and dying, and decide to get along.

 

[Patriot]

My source for the problems caused by immigrating Jews is from an American born Jew, he has family, native Israelis, still living in Israel, so he knows more about this than I do. I know it isnt reported in the us press but a person could probably investigate the claim. I do not think he has any "ax to grind" and has no reason to lie about it. He says the native Israelis do want a peace settlement ..and do want to live safely... and do want to end all the fighting and killing.... and end living in fear. Doesnt seem unreasonable to me.
Sort of the same thing that finally brought about an end to the violence in Ireland...people just finally get sick of the killing and dying, and decide to get along.

Tell that to the palestinians who want the "pigs" all exterminated. There will NEVER be peace when one side is brainwashed into thinking the other side needs to be exterminated. Show me how peace can come from that!


YOU CANT!



http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20040613_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=40160&ak=null



http://www.pmw.org.il/



http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Palestinian_Art_Exhibit.asp

 

[sagegirl]

Tell that to the palestinians who want the "pigs" all exterminated. There will NEVER be peace when one side is brainwashed into thinking the other side needs to be exterminated. Show me how peace can come from that!


YOU CANT!



http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20040613_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=40160&ak=null




http://www.pmw.org.il/



http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Palestinian_Art_Exhibit.asp

We have to hope that PEACE can come for these people, and yes presently, there is plenty of hatred and the prospects of peace seem remote. But I think that eventually a leader will emerge, a true statesman, that can find some common ground for them all to stand on and that will be a beginning...and from such humble beginnings a peace can and will be won.
You put out such negativity with words like "never and cant", try to think more positively, I know sometimes it seems like a lesson in futility, but the mind is a powerful thing and can create energy, hope for the best.

 

[ajwps]

This (Israeli/Arab) conflict is a millennia old, do you really think all of the blame rests with one group. What about the Settlements? What about the Politicians in Israel advocating the total eradication of every Palestinian Man, Women, and Child? Or how about the air strikes that vaporize city blocks? Do you really think every A-Rab is some murky terrorist hiding in hash bars and planning the demise of the world? I have some bad news Ferdinand the world has become a bit more complicated since the fourteenth century. Dissenting opinions count. The humble minions (thanks to the likes of Jefferson, Hamilton, Washington and the rest of the gang) have been empowered. Thanks to the sacrifice of many brave Americans the days of sit down and shut the fuck up are gone. That is in essence the concept of freedom, and yes I will defend it should it ever actually be threatened.

Where did you get this idea? Millennia implies thousands of years which means Arabs have been battling Israel for thousands of years.

Could you give some evidence for your statement?

You speak like an Israeli. You said, "Dissenting opinions count. The humble minions (thanks to the likes of Jefferson, Hamilton, Washington and the rest of the gang) have been empowered. Thanks to the sacrifice of many brave Americans the days of sit down and shut the fuck up are gone. That is in essence the concept of freedom, and yes I will defend it should it ever actually be threatened."

Now just substitute the names Chaim Weitzman, Theodore Hertzl, Menachem Begin (and the rest of the gang) in your statement and you will know that there is not two sides to this conflict. This applies to Israel and the Jewish people to defend just as you feel patriotic to your home land.

There is right and there is wrong. There are Arabs who want to kill and there are Arabs who want to live in peace. Those who want to live in peace become the enemies of those who wish to kill and be killed.

When you are a peaceful Arab who lives in the middle of evil, you cannot avoid being targeted. You are in the middle of a war zone. America has never been a war zone except for the Civil War. You haven't got the vaguest idea what thats like.

It is easy to say, oh they both are at fault from your comfortable armchair playing Monday morning quarterback.

You haven't the vaguest idea in whose fault lies the conflict between the people whose land is being attacked by those who have never had a stake in the land or ever desired to declare a sovereign country in Israel.