So Obama care will force Catholic churches who employ people

[Soggy in NOLA]

the "court created" seperation of church and state.

Say what now?

There is no such thing as Separation of church and state... the Constitution forbids the 'establishment" of a state sanctioned religion. Two different concepts.

 

[bodecea]

Some do, many don't.

Hey, it's fine, I'm thrilled that the O is taking on the Catholics in the run up to an election. Totally works for me.

Mormons and Catholics have worked together in common interests before.... Romney won't get any shit from us.

It would be interesting to see Catholic leaders denounce the President in church and tell their parrishioners to not vote for him.

Our tax rolls would get a nice shot in the arm from that new income.

Our 'leaders' (they're actually Priests and Bishops - spiritual advisers - but if you feel the need to define them as 'leaders' in some attempt to suggest Catholics can't think for themselves, have at it) aren't stupid people. Catholics will inform themselves, and will vote accordingly.

Don't get all butthurt with us because the Messiah wants to take us on.

And, that 'shot in the arm'.... good luck with that - because it would cost the government all of that - and a whole hell of a heap more - to replace what the Catholic Church does in this country - without asking one red cent for it. We are the second largest (after the government) provider of social assistance in the country. Yea, pay for that yourselves. Idiot.

Why is it that the only people hear that call our President "Messiah" are Righties?

 

[StevenC]

the "court created" seperation of church and state.

Say what now?

Wish peopel could think for themselves instead of just letting others do their thinking for them.

Jefferson's concept of "separation of church and state" first became a part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878).[40] In that case, the court examined the history of religious liberty in the US, determining that while the constitution guarantees religious freedom, "The word 'religion' is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning, and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted." The court found that the leaders in advocating and formulating the constitutional guarantee of religious liberty were James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. Quoting the "separation" paragraph from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, the court concluded that, "coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured."

It was not in the first admendment. It was created by the courst based on a letter from Jefferson and the courst "assumed" that that is what the first admendment meant.

What I would like to know though is this.
If you believe in this Seperation than what right does the Governement have telling a religous orginization how they should operate?

 

[bodecea]

the "court created" seperation of church and state.

Say what now?

There is no such thing as Separation of church and state... the Constitution forbids the 'establishment" of a state sanctioned religion. Two different concepts.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

If Congress prohibits something that is normally legal because some religion forbids it....guess what that is?

 

[California Girl]

It would be interesting to see Catholic leaders denounce the President in church and tell their parrishioners to not vote for him.

Our tax rolls would get a nice shot in the arm from that new income.

Our 'leaders' (they're actually Priests and Bishops - spiritual advisers - but if you feel the need to define them as 'leaders' in some attempt to suggest Catholics can't think for themselves, have at it) aren't stupid people. Catholics will inform themselves, and will vote accordingly.

Don't get all butthurt with us because the Messiah wants to take us on.

And, that 'shot in the arm'.... good luck with that - because it would cost the government all of that - and a whole hell of a heap more - to replace what the Catholic Church does in this country - without asking one red cent for it. We are the second largest (after the government) provider of social assistance in the country. Yea, pay for that yourselves. Idiot.

Why is it that the only people hear that call our President "Messiah" are Righties?

I don't know why others do it, but I do it to mock those who worship him. And, for the record, he's not 'our' President... he might be yours but he's not mine. I stopped calling him my President the day he called people like me 'the enemy'. I have no respect for the man.... I maintain respect for the Office.

If you wanna crunch the numbers - you'll find that the Catholic Church provides far more than its 'fair share' of 'taxes' in kind. It's the second largest provider of social services in this country - and it asks nothing in return. You tax the Catholic Church - who exactly do you think will pick up that slack? It'll cost the nation more than double what it might collect in taxes.

Before people get all excited about taxing the Churches, do the damned math. The numbers don't add up.

 

[StevenC]

the "court created" seperation of church and state.

Say what now?

There is no such thing as Separation of church and state... the Constitution forbids the 'establishment" of a state sanctioned religion. Two different concepts.

It also forbids congress from passing laws either for or against religion.
So forcing Catholic institutions to pay for things that go against their religous tenets would be unconstitutional. Would it not?

 

[California Girl]

Say what now?

There is no such thing as Separation of church and state... the Constitution forbids the 'establishment" of a state sanctioned religion. Two different concepts.

It also forbids congress from passing laws either for or against religion.
So forcing Catholic institutions to pay for things that go against their religous tenets would be unconstitutional. Would it not?

I hope so. Obama should take a look at Britain as an example of what happens when you try to 'force' the Church to do something against its teachings. Didn't work out well for the Brits and it won't for Obama.

 

[ABikerSailor]

pay for this even though the morning after pill and other birth control is on this plan. Why is the catholic church allow to get waivers but so many others can. This is against their religion. And why is the morning after pill on this. That is the same as covering an abortion so the people on public assistance we are paying for this with our tax dollars /

How is a morning after pill an "abortion"?

 

[Katzndogz]

No one is suggesting that Congress prohibit birth control. The argument is should those who don't believe in birth control be forced to pay for other's birth control?

 

[California Girl]

pay for this even though the morning after pill and other birth control is on this plan. Why is the catholic church allow to get waivers but so many others can. This is against their religion. And why is the morning after pill on this. That is the same as covering an abortion so the people on public assistance we are paying for this with our tax dollars /

How is a morning after pill an "abortion"?

Given the Church's believe that life begins at conception, I'm sure you can work that out.

 

[Zoom-boing]

The morning after pill prevents fertilization, it isn't some kind of 'spontaneous chemical abortion' pill, as is RU-486.

Info at link.

Christian Life Resources

 

[Unkotare]

the "court created" seperation of church and state.

Say what now?

There is no such thing as Separation of church and state... the Constitution forbids the 'establishment" of a state sanctioned religion. Two different concepts.

Ah, so you don't understand the Constitution, got it.

 

[Greenbeard]

So Obama care will force Catholic churches who employ people pay for this even though the morning after pill and other birth control is on this plan.

No, it doesn't. Those regs have been out since August and, surprise, they exempt churches.

In the Departments’ view, it is appropriate that HRSA, in issuing these Guidelines, takes into account the effect on the religious beliefs of certain religious employers if coverage of contraceptive services were required in the group health plans in which employees in certain religious positions participate. Specifically, the Departments seek to provide for a religious accommodation that respects the unique relationship between a house of worship and its employees in ministerial positions. Such an accommodation would be consistent with the policies of States that require contraceptive services coverage, the majority of which simultaneously provide for a religious accommodation.

In light of the above, the Departments are amending the interim final rules to provide HRSA additional discretion to exempt certain religious employers from the Guidelines where contraceptive services are concerned. The amendment to the interim final rules provides HRSA with the discretion to establish this exemption. Consistent with most States that have such exemptions, as described below, the amended regulations specify that, for purposes of this policy, a religious employer is one that: (1) Has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose; (2) primarily employs persons who share its religious tenets; (3) primarily serves persons who share its religious tenets; and (4) is a non-profit organization under section 6033(a)(1) and section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) or (iii) of the Code. Section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) and (iii) refer to churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order. The definition of religious employer, as set forth in the amended regulations, is based on existing definitions used by most States that exempt certain religious employers from having to comply with State law requirements to cover contraceptive services.

If he tries to force the Catholic Church to pay for birth control he's gonna lose a huge chunk of those voters.

Since he's not doing that, there's not much of an argument there. I trust some Catholic voters are better at informing themselves and voting accordingly than others.

 

[California Girl]

So Obama care will force Catholic churches who employ people pay for this even though the morning after pill and other birth control is on this plan.

No, it doesn't. Those regs have been out since August and, surprise, they exempt churches.

In the Departments’ view, it is appropriate that HRSA, in issuing these Guidelines, takes into account the effect on the religious beliefs of certain religious employers if coverage of contraceptive services were required in the group health plans in which employees in certain religious positions participate. Specifically, the Departments seek to provide for a religious accommodation that respects the unique relationship between a house of worship and its employees in ministerial positions. Such an accommodation would be consistent with the policies of States that require contraceptive services coverage, the majority of which simultaneously provide for a religious accommodation.

In light of the above, the Departments are amending the interim final rules to provide HRSA additional discretion to exempt certain religious employers from the Guidelines where contraceptive services are concerned. The amendment to the interim final rules provides HRSA with the discretion to establish this exemption. Consistent with most States that have such exemptions, as described below, the amended regulations specify that, for purposes of this policy, a religious employer is one that: (1) Has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose; (2) primarily employs persons who share its religious tenets; (3) primarily serves persons who share its religious tenets; and (4) is a non-profit organization under section 6033(a)(1) and section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) or (iii) of the Code. Section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) and (iii) refer to churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order. The definition of religious employer, as set forth in the amended regulations, is based on existing definitions used by most States that exempt certain religious employers from having to comply with State law requirements to cover contraceptive services.

If he tries to force the Catholic Church to pay for birth control he's gonna lose a huge chunk of those voters.

Since he's not doing that, there's not much of an argument there. I trust some Catholic voters are better at informing themselves and voting accordingly than others.

So why is the government insisting that the Church must provide it for non Catholic employees?

That's what the issue is about. That's why the Church is pissed.... and when the Church is pissed... that's a lot of voters.

 

[Greenbeard]

So why is the government insisting that the Church must provide it for non Catholic employees?

They're not.

That's what the issue is about. That's why the Church is pissed.... and when the Church is pissed... that's a lot of voters.

No, that isn't what this issue is about. The churches want the exemption to extend beyond the "churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order" that already enjoy it. That umbrella already covers churches; they simply want more organizations and more types of organizations to also fall under it.

 

[Lovebears65]

So why is the government insisting that the Church must provide it for non Catholic employees?

They're not.

That's what the issue is about. That's why the Church is pissed.... and when the Church is pissed... that's a lot of voters.

No, that isn't what this issue is about. The churches want the exemption to extend beyond the "churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order" that already enjoy it. That umbrella already covers churches; they simply want more organizations and more types of organizations to also fall under it.

The hell they are not. They will force with the healthcare law that they pay for birthcontrol pills and morning after with 0 copay to the employees and the church is paying the premiums The only form of birth control I am aware of that the church approves is the rhythm method

 

[California Girl]

So why is the government insisting that the Church must provide it for non Catholic employees?

They're not.

That's what the issue is about. That's why the Church is pissed.... and when the Church is pissed... that's a lot of voters.

No, that isn't what this issue is about. The churches want the exemption to extend beyond the "churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order" that already enjoy it. That umbrella already covers churches; they simply want more organizations and more types of organizations to also fall under it.

That's because the Catholic Church runs a variety of non exempt activities.... and those non exempt activities provide vital services to the most vulnerable and needy in the country. They cannot provide funding for birth control of any form... it would breach the Church's doctrine.

As I said... piss off the Church.... see how the Catholic voters like that. That's a lot of votes to put up for grab.

 

[merrill]

Why is the Catholic power structure against abortion prevention?

Yet they support child molestation....not many violators of children go to jail.

How many commentators on this thread are Catholic?

 

[California Girl]

Why is the Catholic power structure against abortion prevention?

Yet they support child molestation....not many violators of children go to jail.

How many commentators on this thread are Catholic?

The Catholic Church is always 100% pro life. No ifs, ands, or buts.

No, we don't.

I am.

 

[Chris]

Why is the Catholic power structure against abortion prevention?

Yet they support child molestation....not many violators of children go to jail.

How many commentators on this thread are Catholic?

The Catholic church is more concerned with preventing birth control than preventing pedophilia.

Why?

Because no birth control means more Catholics and more power and more money.

No pedophilia means no sex for the priests.