Smoking, Trans fats, and terrorists

[manifold]

um, so are you really arguing that the ninth amendment invalidates the first? And, by that invalidation of the first, invalidates itself?


hehehehe..


yes, lecture me on which of us is thick, dude. for real.



not to mention that your example of congressional passage of a state religion is HARDLY anything even close to resembling the individual liberty mentioned by the ninth.... but, hey, you've jumped the shark about 10 posts ago so...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you weren't capable of multi-tasking. This latest bit had nothing to do with the Ninth. But even when discussing the Ninth, you were unwilling to discuss it honestly by at least acknowledging that it's been violated countless times since it's passage. You cannot separate ideology from reality. At least not today you can't. Somebody must've pissed in your cheerios this morning.

 

[Ravi]

habeas isn't guarenteed to non-AMERICANS by the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. Thats why Jill and mani keep dancing around gitmo. They CAN:T show me where Tequan Jackson in BFE Anytown, USA got his door kicked in and was dragged away by the men in black despite his rights AS A US CITIZEN. Americans are not being held without habeas. We are not losing that right like we are the liberty of providing a business that caters to smokers.


Im still waiting for more than bullshit theoreticals. Just one single example of an AMERICAN losing habeas will do it. Why do you think neither of them care to post evidence beyond projected estimates?

You don't understand. This loss of habeas corpus applies to anyone the President deems a terrorist. Including Americans.

 

[Shogun]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you weren't capable of multi-tasking. This latest bit had nothing to do with the Ninth. But even when discussing the Ninth, you were unwilling to discuss it honestly by at least acknowledging that it's been violated countless times since it's passage. You cannot separate ideology from reality. At least not today you can't. Somebody must've pissed in your cheerios this morning.

oh well there you go resorting to ad homens, dude. I guess it's pretty obvious which of us is crying uncle by this point.


Indeed, why clarify some trainwreck hypothetical that is comedy gold when talking shit will prove your point!

good job!




So, again, did you want to explain how the first amendment was destroyed by the definition of Obscene or is this where you do a litle monkey dance and pretend that you didn't mention the ninth amendment specifically in some silly little assertion that the first amendment nulifies the ninth?... uh, by a congressional act, no less.

 

[manifold]

So, again, did you want to explain how the first amendment was destroyed by the definition of Obscene

Umm, I never said it did.

...pretend that you didn't mention the ninth amendment specifically in some silly little assertion that the first amendment nulifies the ninth?...

Umm, I never said that either.

So now you're resorting to putting words in my mouth to try and defend your empty case.

I accept your thinly veiled act of concession.

Have a nice night.

 

[Shogun]

You don't understand. This loss of habeas corpus applies to anyone the President deems a terrorist. Including Americans.

well, except for that pesky little document we call a CONSTITUTION.


and, let's not pretend that those being held at gitmo were just walking down the street for a gallon of milk when they were kidnapped by black ops, ok? We've yet to see a single example of ANY AMERICAN losing their right to Habeas. Zilch. None of this "could be" shit. none of this "might happen" crap. The examples presented specifically illustrate a FOREIGN national aplying for Habeas and triggering such due to the LOCATION of gitmo. This is not an example of an American losing a damn thing and it sure as hell is no more significant than the rights currently being shat upon by pink lungers.

Bush COULD sieze control and just decide not to leave office. The earth COULD blow up tomorrow. Jebus COULD come back to call his people home. Until you have evidence of such beyond estimated hypotheticals you are still holding an empty quiver.

 

[Shogun]

Umm, I never said it did.

um, you stated that precedence, specifically mentioning the first amendment, has destroyed the premise of the ninth amendment. Hurry and edit!




Umm, I never said that either.
So now you're resorting to putting words in my mouth to try and defend your empty case.
I accept your thinly veiled act of concession.


HAHAHAH!

ooooook, dude. backtrack all you need to. I would quote you but I get the feeling that facts don't hold much water against your silly ass opinions so.. enjoy that pimp ring "Shogun was here" welt that is starting to show up on your forehead.

 

[Ravi]

well, except for that pesky little document we call a CONSTITUTION.

Seriously, you just aren't getting it. The Patriot Act gives the President the right to deny habeas corpus. Read it sometime. Gitmo is another subject all together.

One day perhaps SCOTUS will strike down this provision in the Patriot Act but don't hold your breath.

 

[Shogun]

Seriously, you just aren't getting it. The Patriot Act gives the President the right to deny habeas corpus. Read it sometime. Gitmo is another subject all together.

One day perhaps SCOTUS will strike down this provision in the Patriot Act but don't hold your breath.

Tell it to the ghost of Abe Lincoln. Im no fan of Bush or his policies but screaming that the sky is falling over something that is, thus far, your version of phantom WMDs just doesn't trump the tangible examples of slightesd liberty that I can provide numerous ACTUAL PHYSICAL EXAMPLES of.

 

[Ravi]

Tell it to the ghost of Abe Lincoln. Im no fan of Bush or his policies but screaming that the sky is falling over something that is, thus far, your version of phantom WMDs just doesn't trump the tangible examples of slightesd liberty that I can provide numerous ACTUAL PHYSICAL EXAMPLES of.

Was I screaming? Merely pointing out the loss of an important right.

I'm pretty sure what Lincoln did was temporary, no? Plus, it was an actual war.

I can see it isn't important to you and I've got to go. Have a nice evening.

 

[Shogun]

Was I screaming? Merely pointing out the loss of an important right.

I'm pretty sure what Lincoln did was temporary, no? Plus, it was an actual war.

I can see it isn't important to you and I've got to go. Have a nice evening.

um, as opposed to this FAKE war? How do you know that the homeland security policies are not temporary as well? I mean, it's not like you can point out a single example of it being used AGAINST an AMERICAN, eh?


Again, unless you can show an exampe of such then it is false to suggest that Americans have lost their right to HC. I, however, CAN point out actual tangible examples of smokers and business owners being shat upon.


I guess Ill go with actual threats to liberty before hopping on the chicken little bandwagon.


However, I do apologize for sending flack your way. You haven't resorted to shit talking like others in this thread. It just seems to me that the threat of racism was proved by cases like Emmet Till and not due to some projected hypothetical. We can all scream that the sky is falling over our issue du jour.

 

[Larkinn]

well, except for that pesky little document we call a CONSTITUTION.

And the CONSTITUTION helped Jose Padilla, how exactly?

and, let's not pretend that those being held at gitmo were just walking down the street for a gallon of milk when they were kidnapped by black ops, ok?

Oh right they were all engaged in the mass murder of Americans. Or of, you know, driving cars. Oh wait thats SO much different than selling milk.

We've yet to see a single example of ANY AMERICAN losing their right to Habeas. Zilch. None of this "could be" shit. none of this "might happen" crap.

Jose Padilla held for FOUR YEARS in military detention with no trial. FOUR YEARS.

 

[Ravi]

um, as opposed to this FAKE war? How do you know that the homeland security policies are not temporary as well? I mean, it's not like you can point out a single example of it being used AGAINST an AMERICAN, eh?


Again, unless you can show an exampe of such then it is false to suggest that Americans have lost their right to HC. I, however, CAN point out actual tangible examples of smokers and business owners being shat upon.


I guess Ill go with actual threats to liberty before hopping on the chicken little bandwagon.


However, I do apologize for sending flack your way. You haven't resorted to shit talking like others in this thread. It just seems to me that the threat of racism was proved by cases like Emmet Till and not due to some projected hypothetical. We can all scream that the sky is falling over our issue du jour.

No problem on the flack.

I don't need an example. The Patriot Act is pretty clear.

 

[Detmurds]

I'll just say this,...the Dems want to ban smoking ( I don't smoke) and to rid the USA of the bad fat in the cooking of food. But the Patriot Act has not affected what I would say any of us in this thread by any means.

One pretty much have to look terrorist to be looked at like a terrorist via the Patriot Act. Don't be nervous!

PATRIOT ACT RULES!

 

[Shogun]

And the CONSTITUTION helped Jose Padilla, how exactly?



Oh right they were all engaged in the mass murder of Americans. Or of, you know, driving cars. Oh wait thats SO much different than selling milk.



Jose Padilla held for FOUR YEARS in military detention with no trial. FOUR YEARS.

Life before imprisonment

Jose Padilla was born in Brooklyn, New York, but later moved to Chicago, Illinois, where he joined the Maniac Latin Disciples street gang and was arrested several times. During his gang years, he maintained several aliases, such as José Rivera, José Alicea, José Hernandez, and José Ortiz. He was convicted of aggravated assault as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died.[2] After serving his last jail sentence, he converted to Islam,[3]. One of his early religious instructors was an Islamic teacher who professed a nonviolent philosophy, and Padilla appeared at the time to be faithful to his mentor's teachings.[4] CNN reports Padilla and Adham Amin Hassoun both attended Masjid Al-Iman mosque in Fort Lauderdale, Florida "for most of the 1990s and were reportedly friends." [5]

U.S. authorities now accuse Hassoun of consorting with radical Islamic fundamentalists, including Al-Qaeda. Hassoun was arrested in 2002 for overstaying his visa[6] and was charged in 2004 with providing material support to terrorists.[7] By that time Hassoun had already been charged with perjury, a weapons offence, and other offenses.



Oh, THAT padilla? Yea, what a fucking shame that guy is off of the streets!



May 8, 2002: Padilla arrives at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives. He is arrested on a material witness warrant.

August 16, 2007: Jury reaches verdict in federal criminal trial. Padilla is found guilty on all charges relating to conspiracy.

 

[Shogun]

No problem on the flack.

I don't need an example. The Patriot Act is pretty clear.

yea, pretty clearly less significant than the current, actual derailments of liberty that I can whip out while you make excuses for an empty quiver....

 

[Ravi]

yea, pretty clearly less significant than the current, actual derailments of liberty that I can whip out while you make excuses for an empty quiver....

Why does it bother you that people object to a law saying they can be rounded up and denied due process?

 

[Larkinn]

Life before imprisonment

Jose Padilla was born in Brooklyn, New York, but later moved to Chicago, Illinois, where he joined the Maniac Latin Disciples street gang and was arrested several times. During his gang years, he maintained several aliases, such as José Rivera, José Alicea, José Hernandez, and José Ortiz. He was convicted of aggravated assault as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died.[2] After serving his last jail sentence, he converted to Islam,[3]. One of his early religious instructors was an Islamic teacher who professed a nonviolent philosophy, and Padilla appeared at the time to be faithful to his mentor's teachings.[4] CNN reports Padilla and Adham Amin Hassoun both attended Masjid Al-Iman mosque in Fort Lauderdale, Florida "for most of the 1990s and were reportedly friends." [5]

U.S. authorities now accuse Hassoun of consorting with radical Islamic fundamentalists, including Al-Qaeda. Hassoun was arrested in 2002 for overstaying his visa[6] and was charged in 2004 with providing material support to terrorists.[7] By that time Hassoun had already been charged with perjury, a weapons offence, and other offenses.



Oh, THAT padilla? Yea, what a fucking shame that guy is off of the streets!



May 8, 2002: Padilla arrives at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives. He is arrested on a material witness warrant.

August 16, 2007: Jury reaches verdict in federal criminal trial. Padilla is found guilty on all charges relating to conspiracy.

I don't give a fuck WHAT he has done. He is a US citizen and if he has done so much, then I'm sure the US government can convict him of an actual crime as oppose to holding him WITHOUT TRIAL for four years.

By the way, according to you the only crime he was convicted of was aggravated assault before being held for 4 years without trial. Then the government suspected he had done something wrong. It now seems that if the government suspects you of a heinous enough crime, they can just lock you up for years without any trial. And somehow you are ok with this?

So much for this bullshit:

We've yet to see a single example of ANY AMERICAN losing their right to Habeas. Zilch. None of this "could be" shit. none of this "might happen" crap.

Oh, and no cries from the right about thought crimes either. What a surprise.

 

[Shogun]

oh yea...


May 8, 2002: Padilla arrives at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives. He is arrested on a material witness warrant.

I tellya, NOTHING says "international businessman" like cash, trac phones and addresses to terrorist operatives this side of 9/11! Hell, it's probably true that citizenship status keeps disgruntled people from acting out against the US government!


Of course you don't care what he was busy doing, dude... Having to actually consider his guilt doesn't fall in line with your silly little anti-bush crusade. I guarentee that you will be the same type of guy for the left as the "clinton blowjob" guy is for the right.


After all, Padillas CONVICTION was probably just a travesty of justice by karl Rove rather than guilt of an anti-american.

 

[Ravi]

oh yea...


May 8, 2002: Padilla arrives at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives. He is arrested on a material witness warrant.

I tellya, NOTHING says "international businessman" like cash, trac phones and addresses to terrorist operatives this side of 9/11! Hell, it's probably true that citizenship status keeps disgruntled people from acting out against the US government!


Of course you don't care what he was busy doing, dude... Having to actually consider his guilt doesn't fall in line with your silly little anti-bush crusade. I guarentee that you will be the same type of guy for the left as the "clinton blowjob" guy is for the right.


After all, Padillas CONVICTION was probably just a travesty of justice by karl Rove rather than guilt of an anti-american.

I couldn't find any evidence that the email addresses were part of the trial. If you read about the trial, it's pretty amazing that the guy was convicted of anything at all.

How do you feel about thought crimes?

 

[Larkinn]

oh yea...


May 8, 2002: Padilla arrives at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives. He is arrested on a material witness warrant.

I tellya, NOTHING says "international businessman" like cash, trac phones and addresses to terrorist operatives this side of 9/11! Hell, it's probably true that citizenship status keeps disgruntled people from acting out against the US government!

Are you blind? When have I ever said he was innocent? My point is that every US citizen, NO MATTER WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, should be able to avail themselves of the US justice system and have the right to habeus corpus. Apparently you disagree. You think the US government can arbitrarily take away those things based on unproven accusations . Oh, and you lied when you said no Americans had been denied HB...want to take that moronic comment back?

Of course you don't care what he was busy doing, dude... Having to actually consider his guilt doesn't fall in line with your silly little anti-bush crusade. I guarentee that you will be the same type of guy for the left as the "clinton blowjob" guy is for the right.

No, I don't care what he is doing because I believe in fundamental rights of knowing what you are being charged with, a quick and speedy trial and not being held in detention with no trial for FOUR YEARS for everyone regardless of the acts one is accused of.

After all, Padillas CONVICTION was probably just a travesty of justice by karl Rove rather than guilt of an anti-american.

Right. Way to confuse two completely and distinct issues.

By the way...if he has done so much, any idea why the government was only able to indict him on conspiracy? (basically a thought crime...oh wait, but its ok against terrorists because terrorism is a bad crime as compared to killing someone cause they are black...that crime ain't that bad). Oh, and why they needed to wait FOUR YEARS to bring him to trial?