Slavery - the Rest of the Story~

[AmyNation]

Yeah I've been digging too. Your Robert M. Grooms is, as nearly as I can tell, a Jr. who is 33 years old with a rap sheet as long as my arm.

The Robert Grooms who wrote the piece in the OP however, wrote it in 1997 - that was 16 years ago. If he was your Robert M. Grooms, he would have been 16 or 17 years old when he wrote it. Has to be a different Robert M. Grooms.

Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms

I have no idea where you are getting any ages.

Here's the same article in OP

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/dixies-censored-subject-black-slave-owners-robert-m-grooms.pdf

That describes grooms as

"A freelance writer living in Indiana"

I haven't found an age for the writer of the article, but I am enough of a writer/historian to know that piece was not written by a 16-year-old kid with a long history of being in trouble with the law. Where is your link showing the author of the piece is serving a life sentence or has ever been in jail period?

On the other hand, I found all these:

MugShot of Robert M Grooms | Fairborn, OH

Robert M Grooms Arrest Details | Kettering, OH

ROBERT M GROOMS JR | Arrested on March 21, 2013 | JailBase

Who said anything about a 16 year old?

 

[AmyNation]

Yeah I've been digging too. Your Robert M. Grooms is, as nearly as I can tell, a Jr. who is 33 years old with a rap sheet as long as my arm.

The Robert Grooms who wrote the piece in the OP however, wrote it in 1997 - that was 16 years ago. If he was your Robert M. Grooms, he would have been 16 or 17 years old when he wrote it. Has to be a different Robert M. Grooms.

Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms

I have no idea where you are getting any ages.

Here's the same article in OP

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/dixies-censored-subject-black-slave-owners-robert-m-grooms.pdf

That describes grooms as

"A freelance writer living in Indiana"

I haven't found an age for the writer of the article, but I am enough of a writer/historian to know that piece was not written by a 16-year-old kid with a long history of being in trouble with the law. Where is your link showing the author of the piece is serving a life sentence or has ever been in jail period?

On the other hand, I found all these:

MugShot of Robert M Grooms | Fairborn, OH

Robert M Grooms Arrest Details | Kettering, OH

ROBERT M GROOMS JR | Arrested on March 21, 2013 | JailBase

Are you contending this man in Ohio is the same man who is in prison in Indiana and wrote the 1988 article but not the 1997 one?

 

[Foxfyre]

Amy, what I am saying is the ONLY Robert Grooms I am finding with arrest records of any type are all in their 20's. I am saying that whomever wrote the article in the OP was no 20-year-old and certainly no 16 or 17-year old that he would have had to be if it was one of those Robert Grooms with an arrest record.

I am saying that the author of the article who wrote the OP is not the same guy.

I have asked you for a link that would show that the author of the piece the OP uses is somebody who is serving a life sentence. Somehow I think Barnes, listing him as one of the writers in their stable, would have mentioned it somewhere. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and I'll gladly own up to it. But I don't think you can discredit the OP with as little to go on as you have provided so far.

 

[AmyNation]

Amy, what I am saying is the ONLY Robert Grooms I am finding with arrest records of any type are all in their 20's. I am saying that whomever wrote the article in the OP was no 20-year-old and certainly no 16 or 17-year old that he would have had to be if it was one of those Robert Grooms with an arrest record.

I am saying that the author of the article who wrote the OP is not the same guy.

I have asked you for a link that would show that the author of the piece the OP uses is somebody who is serving a life sentence.

I have never contended that the writer is 20.

I have researched the writer for the Barnes Review and the only thing I found was similar articles written in the same time period by a man with the same name living in the same ares convicted of murder in the early 80's.

If you have anything in question to suggest who the author is, I'd love to see it.

 

[MikeK]

So what is your point? That living as a slave is better than dying free? That black people were better off as slaves in a foreign land than free in their native lands? That being treated well as a slave justifies slavery? That slavery was just an excuse for the North to invade the South? For what? All its rich industry? Its rich farmlands that existed no where else except most of the continent? That black people are just as guilty for owning slaves as white people at the time? I don't get it. What's the point of this thread?

I respectfully suggest your consternation is based on a perception in general terms rather than allowing for variation.

Evaluating the condition of "slavery" in contemporary terms is a flawed effort because of extremely differing social attitudes and values. Although slavery was criticized by a segment of the population in 1800s America, and was a perfectly acceptable practice in some parts of the world, it is universally deplored and prohibited today -- except in some parts of Africa.

When Black slaves were brought to America by the Dutch, Arab, and Portugese traders there was some understanding that they had been enslaved captive properties of opposing tribes and were facing extreme brutality or death had they not been sold for export. So it was not as if Americans had ventured into Africa and kidnaped relatively happy natives.

While it presumably is true that some holders were innately cruel and treated their chattel slaves brutally there is testimony that this was not universally true and that some slaves were held by relatively kind "masters" who treated them comparatively well.

Those who followed the recent BBC entertainment series, Upstairs/Downstairs, and Downton Abbey, and who watched the movie, Gosford Park, are acquainted with what is described as accurate depictions of the acceptable status of servitude as existed in Edwardian England. Except for the fact that servants in the houses of British nobilty were fundamentally free and could resign if they chose to, they were essentially engaged as compensated slaves in every aspect of their occupations. And there are accounts of Black slaves in America who worked in the plantation houses rather than in the fields and who led relatively comfortable lives, almost identical in fact to the lives of "servants" in British noble houses.

I am in no way attempting to justify, excuse, or mitigate for the condition of slavery, either here in America or anywhere else, because in humanistic terms it is a deplorable state of affairs. But evidence has gradually emerged to reveal that while the circumstances of slavery in America cannot be justified or forgiven it was not always the brutal horror it is typically thought of as being.

There were variations.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Also note that the OP's article is copywriter 1997, but all of his "sources" are from the late 80's.

I'm confused Amy;

You claimed the article was from a "KKK site;" but it's actually from American Civil War History Timelines Battle Map Pictures - a HIGHLY respected history site.

It almost seems like you want to smear the source in an attempt to obscure the content. I've never heard of Robert Grooms in my life - but it sounds as if your claim that he is a convict may be false - that you may be referencing a completely different person. After all, you smeared a legitimate site, so it stands you would smear a legitimate author as well.

 

[Foxfyre]

Amy, what I am saying is the ONLY Robert Grooms I am finding with arrest records of any type are all in their 20's. I am saying that whomever wrote the article in the OP was no 20-year-old and certainly no 16 or 17-year old that he would have had to be if it was one of those Robert Grooms with an arrest record.

I am saying that the author of the article who wrote the OP is not the same guy.

I have asked you for a link that would show that the author of the piece the OP uses is somebody who is serving a life sentence.

I have never contended that the writer is 20.

I have researched the writer for the Barnes Review and the only thing I found was similar articles written in the same time period by a man with the same name living in the same ares convicted of murder in the early 80's.

If you have anything in question to suggest who the author is, I'd love to see it.

I didn't say that you contended that the writer is 20. Do you really read anything I write before you accuse me either directly or by implication? Your comments here are really non responsive/non sequitur to the argument I was making.

Could you perhaps go back and read what I actually wrote before this gets any sillier?

I am not a fan of the Barnes Review either. My comment is that they haven't mentioned this writer as being somebody serving a life sentence.

And I asked you for a link showing that the author of the piece excerpted in the OP was written by a Robert Grooms who is serving a life sentence.

If you cannot do that, then there is room to believe that you made assumptions that you cannot back up.

I don't really CARE who the author is as I was more interested in the content of the article. But I DO care when an OP is discredited based on false information.

 

[AmyNation]

Also note that the OP's article is copywriter 1997, but all of his "sources" are from the late 80's.

I'm confused Amy;

You claimed the article was from a "KKK site;" but it's actually from American Civil War History Timelines Battle Map Pictures - a HIGHLY respected history site.

It almost seems like you want to smear the source in an attempt to obscure the content. I've never heard of Robert Grooms in my life - but it sounds as if your claim that he is a convict may be false - that you may be referencing a completely different person. After all, you smeared a legitimate site, so it stands you would smear a legitimate author as well.

I said its on KKK websites and right wing blogs. It was published in an anti-semetic magazine, the barnes review.

 

[AmyNation]

Amy, what I am saying is the ONLY Robert Grooms I am finding with arrest records of any type are all in their 20's. I am saying that whomever wrote the article in the OP was no 20-year-old and certainly no 16 or 17-year old that he would have had to be if it was one of those Robert Grooms with an arrest record.

I am saying that the author of the article who wrote the OP is not the same guy.

I have asked you for a link that would show that the author of the piece the OP uses is somebody who is serving a life sentence.

I have never contended that the writer is 20.

I have researched the writer for the Barnes Review and the only thing I found was similar articles written in the same time period by a man with the same name living in the same ares convicted of murder in the early 80's.

If you have anything in question to suggest who the author is, I'd love to see it.

I didn't say that you contended that the writer is 20. Do you really read anything I write before you accuse me either directly or by implication? Your comments here are really non responsive/non sequitur to the argument I was making.

Could you perhaps go back and read what I actually wrote before this gets any sillier?

I am not a fan of the Barnes Review either. My comment is that they haven't mentioned this writer as being somebody serving a life sentence.

And I asked you for a link showing that the author of the piece excerpted in the OP was written by a Robert Grooms who is serving a life sentence.

If you cannot do that, then there is room to believe that you made assumptions that you cannot back up.

I don't really CARE who the author is as I was more interested in the content of the article. But I DO care when an OP is discredited based on false information.

Did you read my posts?

I posted the link to the article written in the mid 80's by Robert Grooms that states he is living out a life sentence in Indiana. I also posted the same article that's in the OP from another website, that lists Robert Grooms as living in Indiana.

I contend that that OP article is not a valid verifiable article because

a) its from the Barnes Review
b) the only verifiable author Robert Grooms, is a convicted murderer

 

[Uncensored2008]

I said its on KKK websites and right wing blogs. It was published in an anti-semetic magazine, the barnes review.

Yet the link goes to one of the top civil war historical sites on the net. Nothing to do with the KKK (other than dozens of articles on them as a terrorist organization) and certainly not a "right wing blog."

Again, it appears you wanted to smear the source to avoid the content - a classical ad hominem fallacy.

 

[AmyNation]

I said its on KKK websites and right wing blogs. It was published in an anti-semetic magazine, the barnes review.

Yet the link goes to one of the top civil war historical sites on the net. Nothing to do with the KKK (other than dozens of articles on them as a terrorist organization) and certainly not a "right wing blog."

Again, it appears you wanted to smear the source to avoid the content - a classical ad hominem fallacy.

They are clearly not a very good "historical site" if they are posting articles from the Barnes Review, written by a man who has no known credentials

 

[Foxfyre]

I have never contended that the writer is 20.

I have researched the writer for the Barnes Review and the only thing I found was similar articles written in the same time period by a man with the same name living in the same ares convicted of murder in the early 80's.

If you have anything in question to suggest who the author is, I'd love to see it.

I didn't say that you contended that the writer is 20. Do you really read anything I write before you accuse me either directly or by implication? Your comments here are really non responsive/non sequitur to the argument I was making.

Could you perhaps go back and read what I actually wrote before this gets any sillier?

I am not a fan of the Barnes Review either. My comment is that they haven't mentioned this writer as being somebody serving a life sentence.

And I asked you for a link showing that the author of the piece excerpted in the OP was written by a Robert Grooms who is serving a life sentence.

If you cannot do that, then there is room to believe that you made assumptions that you cannot back up.

I don't really CARE who the author is as I was more interested in the content of the article. But I DO care when an OP is discredited based on false information.

Did you read my posts?

I posted the link to the article written in the mid 80's by Robert Grooms that states he is living out a life sentence in Indiana. I also posted the same article that's in the OP from another website, that lists Robert Grooms as living in Indiana.

I contend that that OP article is not a valid verifiable article because

a) its from the Barnes Review
b) the only verifiable author Robert Grooms, is a convicted murderer

Yes, your link takes us to the Crime & Delinquency website and an article by a Robert M. Grooms but not to the article in the OP. What do you have to show that it is the same Robert M. Grooms? I'm finding a LOT of Robert M. Grooms in searches.

 

[Foxfyre]

I said its on KKK websites and right wing blogs. It was published in an anti-semetic magazine, the barnes review.

Yet the link goes to one of the top civil war historical sites on the net. Nothing to do with the KKK (other than dozens of articles on them as a terrorist organization) and certainly not a "right wing blog."

Again, it appears you wanted to smear the source to avoid the content - a classical ad hominem fallacy.

They are clearly not a very good "historical site" if they are posting articles from the Barnes Review, written by a man who has no known credentials

And now we have completely deflected from a very interesting topic and an article that provided a lot of meat to have a good discussion while you rail against somebody you assigned to prison, with no proof, and discredit an excellent history website because they used an article from the Barnes Review.

Way to go Amy.

And shame on me for allowing myself to be baited by the standard diversionary tactic. I apologize to everybody.

 

[AmyNation]

Yet the link goes to one of the top civil war historical sites on the net. Nothing to do with the KKK (other than dozens of articles on them as a terrorist organization) and certainly not a "right wing blog."

Again, it appears you wanted to smear the source to avoid the content - a classical ad hominem fallacy.

They are clearly not a very good "historical site" if they are posting articles from the Barnes Review, written by a man who has no known credentials

And now we have completely deflected from a very interesting topic and an article that provided a lot of meat to have a good discussion while you rail against somebody you assigned to prison, with no proof, and discredit an excellent history website because they used an article from the Barnes Review.

Way to go Amy.

And shame on me for allowing myself to be baited by the standard diversionary tactic. I apologize to everybody.

*takes a bow*


I won't apologize for completely obliterating the OP's 1st source. If I posted an article from the onion and asked members to debate it as it were to be seriously considered, I'd hope someone would come along and point out my error too.

That being said, I did comment on her second source, which is far more relevant and reliable.

Nothing is stopping you from carrying on the conversation from there.

 

[Osomir]

The first article states that most slave owners had no more than 5. A slave had to be a significant investment for a plantation owner. I simply can't believe they horse whipped them, because that practice has the potential to seriously lower the value of their slaves. Yet, no one thinks it through. The whip and chain model is what we have. But I can tell you that W E B Dubois lets us know that blacks owe no real debt of gratitude to Lincoln or the north.

That is true about the breeding. I have one black friend who will preface some of her statements with: 'The white part of me thinks......'

The whip model was fairly popular, not only here, but in terms of the slave trade in general. Only about 5% of the Atlantic slave population ended up in the U.S. Most ended up further south in the Caribbean and Brazil, and then white Europeans and US companies held many slaves and forced laborers in Africa itself. It's really these other places (particularly Africa) that the worst forms of slavery took place. King Leopold's quest for rubber and ivory in the Congo for example cost some 10 million lives (half the population perished under his rule and usage of slaves). The cutting off of feet and hands or outright killing were not at all uncommon. It was more costly to take them across the Atlantic but that didn't prevent millions from perishing in the trade. Some of the real horrors of the slave trade took place during the sourcing chain, from the conflict it inspired in Africa to the lives lost in the voyage over to the Americas.

If anything our history classes tend to under emphasize how horrible, extensive, and down right devastating the trade was.

Also, it doesn't matter if some slave owners in the US didn't beat their slaves, they still were treating people as property and were still part of a larger industry that killed millions. Their demand for the product directly fueled unimaginable cruelty.

 

[Osomir]

I have always assumed they selected the biggest males from the Africans brought in for sale on the Gold Coast. And that this explains the sports giants today.

I mean, anybody would! We know they selected for health; there are a lot of descriptions of that. The chieftains who sold them were always trying to foist off old crazy men and broken-down men for the same amount of trade goods, of course.

That's not really how the slave trade system worked. Africans rarely sold their own. In other words many Africans who were sold to Europeans were those persons captured via armed conflict from another polity, or were criminals from their prisons. "chiefs" didn't just pick the strongest people in their village and sell them for profit.