Simple Point Missing in the Union threads

Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. That leverage is a means to a fair wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. Any union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wages and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

The problem is unions do get rediculous wages to a point and then they become useless, but the main issue is most of those jobs are unskilled, entry level jobs and being a retail clerk does not warrant a good income, sorry, it's for teenagers and part time, not a "real" job by any means.
 
The part of the story that the OP is not telling is that so many sticks have been added that even all the sons together cannot even pick them up...

While I see the moral of the OP's story what he is missing is the fact that when companies and states go bankrupt because they can't carry the weight (demand) of the Unions, everyone will lose.

It blows the mind that people like the OP can't undertand this very basic concept seeing as it happens to be the reality we live in.
 
worked out well for him, didn't it?
Pretty well, for awhile...The American leftists just loved the little turd.

:rolleyes:

please
Read it and weep, dude.
American Progressives studied at German universities, Schivelbusch writes, and “came to appreciate the Hegelian theory of a strong state and Prussian militarism as the most efficient way of organizing modern societies that could no longer be ruled by anarchic liberal principles.” The pragmatist philosopher William James’ influential 1910 essay “The Moral Equivalent of War” stressed the importance of order, discipline, and planning.

Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt - Reason.com
 
Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. That leverage is a means to a fair wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. Any union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wages and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

The problem is unions do get rediculous wages to a point and then they become useless, but the main issue is most of those jobs are unskilled, entry level jobs and being a retail clerk does not warrant a good income, sorry, it's for teenagers and part time, not a "real" job by any means.

The issues isnt whether or not those are "real" jobs, they are labor and if you are in a labor position there will always be someone willing to work for less. Especially if the options are limited. There can be no good that comes from Corporations (groups) to have the only leverage and bargaining power. From the article "The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests."

If you believe companies will treat everyone great because of some imaginary public backlash you dont understand how much Americans love cheap stuff.
 
You act as though people need unions as they are ... not as they were. That's the thing you don't understand, the middle.

Why dont you explain it then?

Unions have gone from trying to get what is fair pay and benefits and safe working conditions to just trying to get all they can while doing as little as possible. The unions of 40, 50, 60,70 years served a good purpose I'm not sure the unions of Today really do.
 
You act as though people need unions as they are ... not as they were. That's the thing you don't understand, the middle.

Why dont you explain it then?

Unions have gone from trying to get what is fair pay and benefits and safe working conditions to just trying to get all they can while doing as little as possible. The unions of 40, 50, 60,70 years served a good purpose I'm not sure the unions of Today really do.

Read the article it's really good:

There is a simple reason why all those huge employers of retail and service workers—Target, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Whole Foods, and countless others—are so emphatically anti-union: fear. These companies know that unions represent a sort of power for their workers that their workers will otherwise never have. That power translates to better working conditions and higher wages. That, in turn, eats into a company's profits, as all expenses do. For some companies, this is merely a nuisance, a potential hit to the stock price. For others—like Wal-Mart, which has built the world's largest retail chain by squeezing every last cent out of its costs—it is a potential existential threat.
 
Why We Need Unions



A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

The problem is unions do get rediculous wages to a point and then they become useless, but the main issue is most of those jobs are unskilled, entry level jobs and being a retail clerk does not warrant a good income, sorry, it's for teenagers and part time, not a "real" job by any means.

The issues isnt whether or not those are "real" jobs, they are labor and if you are in a labor position there will always be someone willing to work for less. Especially if the options are limited. There can be no good that comes from Corporations (groups) to have the only leverage and bargaining power. From the article "The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests."

If you believe companies will treat everyone great because of some imaginary public backlash you dont understand how much Americans love cheap stuff.

no I do understand Americans love cheap stuff, hence the US automobile sector down the tubes. Ypu cant inflate wages artificially and expect people to pay for it. Low skilled jobs are gonna be low paid, just the way it is and should be. If a retail clerk makes as much or more than a programmer, it's just plain wrong. Retail should be a first job or a stop gap until you find meaningful employment. I've worked customer serivce, retail and as a busboy in Red Lobster, those are not high paying jobs nor should they be, not much skill and they're to build a work ethic, not make you live comfortably.
 
union-card-not_5.jpg
If this ^^^ moron had any thought of its own, perhaps it wouldn't post strawmen.

If it even knows what those are.....
 
Pretty well, for awhile...The American leftists just loved the little turd.

:rolleyes:

please
Read it and weep, dude.
American Progressives studied at German universities, Schivelbusch writes, and “came to appreciate the Hegelian theory of a strong state and Prussian militarism as the most efficient way of organizing modern societies that could no longer be ruled by anarchic liberal principles.” The pragmatist philosopher William James’ influential 1910 essay “The Moral Equivalent of War” stressed the importance of order, discipline, and planning.

Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt - Reason.com

admiration for fascism wasn't limited to the left side of the political spectrum.

save the bullshit for someone who hasn't read a book. :thup:
 
There is another problem with unions or public sector unions now as I understand this the unions negotiate there contracts with elected politicians. Now the politicians who give them the best deal generally get union backing and get elected and in return for this backing the unions get a even better deal next time around and the politicians get the union support again and we have this endless circle. Now am I the only one who sees a problem or conflict with unions both backing and supporting politicians that they end up negotiating contracts with?
 
You act as though people need unions as they are ... not as they were. That's the thing you don't understand, the middle.

Why dont you explain it then?

Unions have gone from trying to get what is fair pay and benefits and safe working conditions to just trying to get all they can while doing as little as possible. The unions of 40, 50, 60,70 years served a good purpose I'm not sure the unions of Today really do.
China and India just love American unions.
 

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