Should've the f-22 production ended? Can we do with the f-35?

[krislh11]

What do you think?

 

[xsited1]

What do you think?

Well, we have been paying for the Chengdu J-20 jet fighter and the Dong Feng 21 missile, so I guess production is continuing... in China.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

 

[onecut39]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

What job?

 

[American Horse]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

What job?

Sophisticated air defenses are a growing threat to American fighters. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, among others, are developing and fielding integrated air-defense systems, including interlinked radar sites and advanced surface-to-air missiles such as the S-400. The lower operational ceiling of the F-35 (around 40,000 feet) and its subsonic cruising speed means it will be at much higher risk in attempting to penetrate such heavily defended airspace.

The F-22 was designed precisely to fight and survive in such environments—as attested by its 60,000-foot operational ceiling and supercruise (cruising at plus-mach speeds without afterburners) ability.

The JSF F-35 program has run into numerous delays and cost increases, with the unit price of each plane nearing $100 million. In early January, Mr. Gates put the F-35B program on hold for two years, as its vertical take-off-and-landing capabilities ran into significant development problems.

Michael Auslin: The Case for Reviving the F-22 Fighter - WSJ.com

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

What job?

The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. If you want to know more I suggest you do basic research on the roles of the various planes we have in our arsenal. Not only am I not an expert, I am not even partially inclined to make your life easy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

What job?

Sophisticated air defenses are a growing threat to American fighters. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, among others, are developing and fielding integrated air-defense systems, including interlinked radar sites and advanced surface-to-air missiles such as the S-400. The lower operational ceiling of the F-35 (around 40,000 feet) and its subsonic cruising speed means it will be at much higher risk in attempting to penetrate such heavily defended airspace.

The F-22 was designed precisely to fight and survive in such environments—as attested by its 60,000-foot operational ceiling and supercruise (cruising at plus-mach speeds without afterburners) ability.

The JSF F-35 program has run into numerous delays and cost increases, with the unit price of each plane nearing $100 million. In early January, Mr. Gates put the F-35B program on hold for two years, as its vertical take-off-and-landing capabilities ran into significant development problems.

Michael Auslin: The Case for Reviving the F-22 Fighter - WSJ.com

He makes some good points for reviving the F-22, but he errs in saying we should cut the F-35 to pay for it. They are separate fighters, and most of the problems in F-35 development come from the application of VSTOL technology to an airframe not specifically designed for it. Those are known problems, and can be overcome, and the production costs should actually go down if we keep up the initial plans to phase the F-35 in across the board. I am actually pretty impressed with the f-35, and expected to see many more problems than actually came up.

 

[onecut39]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

What job?

The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. If you want to know more I suggest you do basic research on the roles of the various planes we have in our arsenal. Not only am I not an expert, I am not even partially inclined to make your life easy.

A hundred million bucks a plane and they will probably be chasing Toyota pickup trucks. The age of the manned fighter is almost over. Too expensive and the limiting factor on performance is the pilot.

 

[Sallow]

What job?

The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. If you want to know more I suggest you do basic research on the roles of the various planes we have in our arsenal. Not only am I not an expert, I am not even partially inclined to make your life easy.

A hundred million bucks a plane and they will probably be chasing Toyota pickup trucks. The age of the manned fighter is almost over. Too expensive and the limiting factor on performance is the pilot.

Exactly. There's nothing that comes close. There's nothing that comes close to the Tomcats either.

 

[onecut39]

We have about 180 F-22s to replace 800 older 4th gen fighters. that is obviously not enough to do the job.

What job?

Sophisticated air defenses are a growing threat to American fighters. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, among others, are developing and fielding integrated air-defense systems, including interlinked radar sites and advanced surface-to-air missiles such as the S-400. The lower operational ceiling of the F-35 (around 40,000 feet) and its subsonic cruising speed means it will be at much higher risk in attempting to penetrate such heavily defended airspace.

The F-22 was designed precisely to fight and survive in such environments—as attested by its 60,000-foot operational ceiling and supercruise (cruising at plus-mach speeds without afterburners) ability.

The JSF F-35 program has run into numerous delays and cost increases, with the unit price of each plane nearing $100 million. In early January, Mr. Gates put the F-35B program on hold for two years, as its vertical take-off-and-landing capabilities ran into significant development problems.

Michael Auslin: The Case for Reviving the F-22 Fighter - WSJ.com

Sorry. but I cannot envision ever having such a war again. If you are engaging Russian or Chinese Air defenses, in country, you can be assured that ICBMs are enroute to the US.

No one will hold back the nuclear trigger that long.

 

[Charles_Main]

What do you think?

IMO no, and I will tell you why. The main reason it was killed is cost. But they were only looking at the cost per Unit, and not thinking about the fact that Each f-22 could effectively replace several older planes and do their job. They also ignored the massive leap in fuel efficiency the f-22 made. The damn thing can go 2200 Miles per hour for 3.5 hours straight on one tank of fuel. Our Current planes can only go that fast for short periods, and would need several mid Air Refuelings to cover the 7400 Miles in 3.5 Hours an f.22 can cover.

The F-35 Is a strike fighter. A multi Role weapon. While the f-22 can also fill multiple roles it was designed for one reason only. Air supremacy. Which IMO is one of the most important factors in remaining powerful. That is why the f-22 is called an "air superiority fighter" while the f-35 is called a "strike Fighter" Can the f-35 do the job? Probably, but I do not think it can do it as well, certainly not with out more numbers of them.

IF you ask the pentagon they say the didn't need it, but ask Fighter pilots about it, and they will tell you we lost a serious advantage by ending the program, and for the first time since WWII face not having the most advance and capable air supremacy fighter in the world.

Who ever said the age of Manned fighters is over, is also misinformed IMO. Nothing will ever replace a capable pilot and his plane, It is still, and IMO always will be the most effect means of establishing air supremacy.

 

[Charles_Main]

What job?

Sophisticated air defenses are a growing threat to American fighters. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, among others, are developing and fielding integrated air-defense systems, including interlinked radar sites and advanced surface-to-air missiles such as the S-400. The lower operational ceiling of the F-35 (around 40,000 feet) and its subsonic cruising speed means it will be at much higher risk in attempting to penetrate such heavily defended airspace.

The F-22 was designed precisely to fight and survive in such environments—as attested by its 60,000-foot operational ceiling and supercruise (cruising at plus-mach speeds without afterburners) ability.

The JSF F-35 program has run into numerous delays and cost increases, with the unit price of each plane nearing $100 million. In early January, Mr. Gates put the F-35B program on hold for two years, as its vertical take-off-and-landing capabilities ran into significant development problems.

Michael Auslin: The Case for Reviving the F-22 Fighter - WSJ.com

Sorry. but I cannot envision ever having such a war again. If you are engaging Russian or Chinese Air defenses, in country, you can be assured that ICBMs are enroute to the US.

No one will hold back the nuclear trigger that long.

Your making a classic mistake, Just because you can not envision it, does not mean it could not happen.

 

[Charles_Main]

What job?

Sophisticated air defenses are a growing threat to American fighters. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, among others, are developing and fielding integrated air-defense systems, including interlinked radar sites and advanced surface-to-air missiles such as the S-400. The lower operational ceiling of the F-35 (around 40,000 feet) and its subsonic cruising speed means it will be at much higher risk in attempting to penetrate such heavily defended airspace.

The F-22 was designed precisely to fight and survive in such environments—as attested by its 60,000-foot operational ceiling and supercruise (cruising at plus-mach speeds without afterburners) ability.

The JSF F-35 program has run into numerous delays and cost increases, with the unit price of each plane nearing $100 million. In early January, Mr. Gates put the F-35B program on hold for two years, as its vertical take-off-and-landing capabilities ran into significant development problems.

Michael Auslin: The Case for Reviving the F-22 Fighter - WSJ.com

Sorry. but I cannot envision ever having such a war again. If you are engaging Russian or Chinese Air defenses, in country, you can be assured that ICBMs are enroute to the US.

No one will hold back the nuclear trigger that long.

Your making a classic mistake, Just because you can not envision it, does not mean it could not happen.


Take Libya right now as an example. If we wanted to establish a no Fly zone with our current planes. It would take many many planes. However just handful of f-22's could shut down Libya's air space very effectively.

It really is that much more advanced than almost anything it could face.

 

[Trajan]

American Horse, and QW have made the salient points.....I'll just add, you can build a fighter bomber thats great at THAT role, troop sppt., grand tactical bombing missions etc.

You can build a fighter that can perform a Fighter bomb mission well, but not as well as fighter bomber, BUT you cannot build a Fighter Bomber that will do what an all weather air superiority fighter can do, with mastery. Its that simple. They have 2 different missions.

A naval aircraft FB by virtue of SPACE considerations, is designed as a halfway measure. The air force doesn’t need a build as a half way measure.

 

[onecut39]

Sophisticated air defenses are a growing threat to American fighters. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, among others, are developing and fielding integrated air-defense systems, including interlinked radar sites and advanced surface-to-air missiles such as the S-400. The lower operational ceiling of the F-35 (around 40,000 feet) and its subsonic cruising speed means it will be at much higher risk in attempting to penetrate such heavily defended airspace.

The F-22 was designed precisely to fight and survive in such environments—as attested by its 60,000-foot operational ceiling and supercruise (cruising at plus-mach speeds without afterburners) ability.

The JSF F-35 program has run into numerous delays and cost increases, with the unit price of each plane nearing $100 million. In early January, Mr. Gates put the F-35B program on hold for two years, as its vertical take-off-and-landing capabilities ran into significant development problems.

Michael Auslin: The Case for Reviving the F-22 Fighter - WSJ.com

Sorry. but I cannot envision ever having such a war again. If you are engaging Russian or Chinese Air defenses, in country, you can be assured that ICBMs are enroute to the US.

No one will hold back the nuclear trigger that long.

Your making a classic mistake, Just because you can not envision it, does not mean it could not happen.


Take Libya right now as an example. If we wanted to establish a no Fly zone with our current planes. It would take many many planes. However just handful of f-22's could shut down Libya's air space very effectively.

It really is that much more advanced than almost anything it could face.

We already have a handful of F-22s. Not that we would need them.

 

[martybegan]

What job?

The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. If you want to know more I suggest you do basic research on the roles of the various planes we have in our arsenal. Not only am I not an expert, I am not even partially inclined to make your life easy.

A hundred million bucks a plane and they will probably be chasing Toyota pickup trucks. The age of the manned fighter is almost over. Too expensive and the limiting factor on performance is the pilot.

I disagree. The one advantage of a manned pilot is that it cannot be jammed. With Remotes there is always the possibility of severing the command link, leaving it to function on pre programmed responses.

 

[onecut39]

*****************************
That's deep.

 

[onecut39]

The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. If you want to know more I suggest you do basic research on the roles of the various planes we have in our arsenal. Not only am I not an expert, I am not even partially inclined to make your life easy.

A hundred million bucks a plane and they will probably be chasing Toyota pickup trucks. The age of the manned fighter is almost over. Too expensive and the limiting factor on performance is the pilot.

I disagree. The one advantage of a manned pilot is that it cannot be jammed. With Remotes there is always the possibility of severing the command link, leaving it to function on pre programmed responses.

****************************************
Right now the drone has a 95 million buck per plane price advantage on the F22. For that price we can lose a few.

Drones are in their infancy but are more effective than high performance aircraft in Afganistan. In a few years they may well be super high performance as the frailties of a pilot are discarded

 

[martybegan]

A hundred million bucks a plane and they will probably be chasing Toyota pickup trucks. The age of the manned fighter is almost over. Too expensive and the limiting factor on performance is the pilot.

I disagree. The one advantage of a manned pilot is that it cannot be jammed. With Remotes there is always the possibility of severing the command link, leaving it to function on pre programmed responses.

****************************************
Right now the drone has a 95 million buck per plane price advantage on the F22. For that price we can lose a few.

Drones are in their infancy but are more effective than high performance aircraft in Afganistan. In a few years they may well be super high performance as the frailties of a pilot are discarded

You dont answer my jammed signal question. most drones today only loiter, for them to do complex manuevers would require another leap in AI technology.... and that might lead to:

All kidding aside, people thought the SAM would make aircraft obsolete, and it didnt happen, why should this be any different?

 

[krislh11]

The military's goal was to have at least 300 f-22's to replace obselete f-15s.

Here are some specs:

F-22-

Wing Area:840 sq ft
Engine Thrust Class:35,000 lb
Level Speed:921 mph
Total Length:62.08 ft
Wing Span:44.5 ft
Horizontal Tail Span:29ft
Tail Span: 18'10"
Total Height:16.67ft
Track Width:10.6ft
Enginesratt & Whitney F-119
Max. Takeoff Weight: 60,000 lb (27,216 kg)
Max. External Stores: 5,000 lb (2,270 kg)
Weight Empty: 31,670 lb (14,365 kg)
Ceiling:50,000 ft (15,240 m)
Crew:1
G Limit:+9 G
First Flight:September 7th 1997



F-35-

Dimensions:CTOL and STOVL Length15.4m
CTOL and STOVL Height 4.6m
CTOL and STOVL Wingspan 10.6m
CV Length15.5m
CV Height4.6m
CV Wingspan13.1m
Engines:Turbofan EnginesP&W F135
Thrust164.6kN
Performance:Maximum Take-Off Weight27,216kg
Maximum SpeedMach 1.8
Weapons:Air-to-Air Missiles2 x AIM-120 AMRAAM
Bombs2 x JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition) 1,000lb precision air-to-surface munition
Gun1 x 27mm (not on STOVL)


F22 costs $150 million per plane

F35 costs $110 million per plane