Should We Kill The Fed?

[Iriemon]

It's certainly not going on at the levels that it was, but we're in the recession so technically there should be no building going on. We need to sell the houses that are already built and let their prices fall.

So low Fed rates don't necessarily induce over building. Perhaps there are other factors at issue like market demand, supply, and speculation.

Not during the bust period when house prices should be falling dramatically. Also, this doesn't just apply to the housing market, I simply used them as an example because they're highly relevant in our current economic downturn.

Exactly my point. There are other factors that have greater effect on market condition that the Fed's interest rates. And for that reason it is fallacious to ascribe the housing "bubble" solely to Fed policies.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So low Fed rates don't necessarily induce over building. Perhaps there are other factors at issue like market demand, supply, and speculation.

Not during the bust period when house prices should be falling dramatically. Also, this doesn't just apply to the housing market, I simply used them as an example because they're highly relevant in our current economic downturn.

Exactly my point. There are other factors that have greater effect on market condition that the Fed's interest rates. And for that reason it is fallacious to ascribe the housing "bubble" solely to Fed policies.

Certainly other things helped make the situation worse, but the main reason was the Fed artificially lowering interest rates and inflation.

 

[Paulie]

Enticing borrowing begins with setting an interest rate that will spur demand. Being able to literally manipulate the fed rate at whim gives the Fed a vast amount of power in controlling an entire economy. They can actually "create" demand where there typically wouldn't be any. This inflates prices, causes a boom which is really only artificial, and then that boom has to eventually reach a correction point because demand can not perpetually support those inflated prices.

If the market were allowed to establish the interest rates FREELY, then the boom and busts would not be anything close to what we see happen these days, because the supply and demand would have virtually kept the economy moving at a rational rate.

Toro will point out that the market can not be counted on to act rationally at all times, and I agree completely. But the market can definitely act more rationally than the Fed. We would not have mortgaged all these houses over the past 5+ years if we were not enticed with the near-zero interest rate that the Fed dangled like a carrot in front of our faces in '02.

 

[Richard-H]

The American people have only themselves to blame for this mess!

We have been a nation of DUMB ASSES SINCE 1980.

It was only a matter of time before the deregulatory, free-market, supply-side, anti-government CRAP that Ronald Reagan led to the complete control of this nations wealth by a tiny minority of irresponsible, greedy and incompetent ASSHOLES!

THE SHIT HAS FINALLY HIT THE FAN BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TURN THE FAN ON AND GAVE THESE ASSHOLES THE SHIT TO THROW INTO IT!!!

We are the HARDEST WORKING and MOST PRODUCTIVE People in the HISTORY OF THE HUMAN RACE.

WE WORK MORE HOURS THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD!

YET OUR STANDARD OF LIVING SUCKS AS COMPARED TO ALL THOSE UNPRODUCTIVE EUROPEAN SOCLIATIST COUNTRIES!!!

We Need RADICAL CHANGE in the way this country's economy operates.

The Obama administration is trying just about every non-radical means to urn the economy around and prevent this from happening again. I hope they succeed.

But if the economy continues to degenerate I hope that the American people WISE UP, elect an even more radical congress and state legislatures and pass whatever constitutional admendment needed to make the radical changes neccessary to salvage this country!

(You'd never guess that I lost my 401k matching contributions today, would ya?)

 

[ItsFairmont]

Must you guys quote each other without editing for length? Geesh. It takes up a lot of space. Quote only the line you mean to argue.


That said, the Fed is not a federal agency. It is a private corporation invented on Jekyll Island, GA in the early 1900s. They caused the great depression and every other recession since.

The reason Cuba is still considered an enemy is due to the fact that they refuse to have a central bank control them (ie, the Rothchild family).

The money in your wallet is not yours. It even says so right on it: Federal Reserve note.


And, due to property taxes, it's assured that your property can never stay yours either.


It's all temporary in this land. The bankers own everything.

 

[neurosport]

We are the HARDEST WORKING and MOST PRODUCTIVE People in the HISTORY OF THE HUMAN RACE.

WE WORK MORE HOURS THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD!

YET OUR STANDARD OF LIVING SUCKS AS COMPARED TO ALL THOSE UNPRODUCTIVE EUROPEAN SOCLIATIST COUNTRIES!!!

stop smoking crack.

our standard of living was TOO HIGH !

Brooklyn is full of millionaires and i don't know a single person who does anything useful for a living.

people become millionaires just by stealing money from each other here - its amazing !

NOTHING is produced in Brooklyn - NOTHING ! yet everybody on Brighton beach drives Bentleys and Maseratis ...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The American people have only themselves to blame for this mess!

We have been a nation of DUMB ASSES SINCE 1980.

It was only a matter of time before the deregulatory, free-market, supply-side, anti-government CRAP that Ronald Reagan led to the complete control of this nations wealth by a tiny minority of irresponsible, greedy and incompetent ASSHOLES!

THE SHIT HAS FINALLY HIT THE FAN BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TURN THE FAN ON AND GAVE THESE ASSHOLES THE SHIT TO THROW INTO IT!!!

We are the HARDEST WORKING and MOST PRODUCTIVE People in the HISTORY OF THE HUMAN RACE.

WE WORK MORE HOURS THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD!

YET OUR STANDARD OF LIVING SUCKS AS COMPARED TO ALL THOSE UNPRODUCTIVE EUROPEAN SOCLIATIST COUNTRIES!!!

We Need RADICAL CHANGE in the way this country's economy operates.

The Obama administration is trying just about every non-radical means to urn the economy around and prevent this from happening again. I hope they succeed.

But if the economy continues to degenerate I hope that the American people WISE UP, elect an even more radical congress and state legislatures and pass whatever constitutional admendment needed to make the radical changes neccessary to salvage this country!

(You'd never guess that I lost my 401k matching contributions today, would ya?)

You're blaming the wrong people, I'm afraid. There never was a free market that could have caused this downturn, and there wasn't even a relatively free market thanks to high levels of government regulation and the policies of the Federal Reserve. This has been in the making for far longer than the 1980's, also. Look back towards 1913 with the creation of the Federal Reserve and the implementation of the 16th amendment. All those "European socialist countries" that you say our standard of living is worse than are no better off and mostly worse off than we are in this recession.

We do need radical change in this country, but it's toward free markets not away from them.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Must you guys quote each other without editing for length? Geesh. It takes up a lot of space. Quote only the line you mean to argue.


That said, the Fed is not a federal agency. It is a private corporation invented on Jekyll Island, GA in the early 1900s. They caused the great depression and every other recession since.

The reason Cuba is still considered an enemy is due to the fact that they refuse to have a central bank control them (ie, the Rothchild family).

The money in your wallet is not yours. It even says so right on it: Federal Reserve note.


And, due to property taxes, it's assured that your property can never stay yours either.


It's all temporary in this land. The bankers own everything.

I find the argument that the Federal Reserve is a private institution to be quite silly. My Congressman recently attempted to make that argument to me when I asked him to support H.R. 1207. If the Federal Reserve were truly a private institution they would not have been created by government statute, they would not have their chairman appointed by the government, they would not have to make reports to the Congress, and they would not be given a monopoly privilege over the creation of money by the federal government. They are a government agency, whether the government intends to admit it or not.

 

[American Horse]

Must you guys quote each other without editing for length? Geesh. It takes up a lot of space. Quote only the line you mean to argue

And, due to property taxes, it's assured that your property can never stay yours either.

It's all temporary in this land. The bankers own everything.

OK to your issues:

I just sold (some of my) my real estate, and except for the 20% I paid the IRS for capital gains tax, the rest of it went into my savings account. How is that temporary? And since I didn't have a mortgage on it.... the bank got nothing.

eh?

 

[editec]

How about we (meaning our government) simple takes control of it?

Of course that won't work because the same people running our private banks will be the people our government puppets put in charge of it.

The more I look at the problem, the more I think we need tar, feathers, a rope and tree to even BEGIN solving the REAL problems we have.

Our leadership, which is nothing more than the unholy aliance between the haves and the servant class of the haves who run THEIR government (it isn't the American people's government folks, get used to it) , has got so many of us bambozzled into thinking that the problem is too much liberalism or too much conservtism, they've been propagandizing us for so long, that few of us can see the forest for the trees.

So none of you patriots are ever going to find the people to use your guns on. ]

And even if you do the wealthy have never had the slightest difficulty finding one citizen to kill another for a modest salary, health care and a pension, have they?

The War on Drugs, which it is obvious most people object to, is prooof positive of that sad fact.

So when the shit hits the fan the people we should be going after will probably be leading us just as they are now.

And we'll dutifully take out whatever scapegoat class our masters tell us is to blame, I suspect.

That's pretty much how formerly civil societies evolve into tyrannies.

We've had 8 years of coservative Republican adminsitration, which made it clear that they're primary objective has been to make the rich richer. So what would you expect? You expect a new Dem president inhereting a financial crises to have turned it all around in 2 months?

No, of course not. What I'd hoped is change.

What we're getting is more of same..a LOT more of same.

I know its sport to look at the Fed in hindsight and say they shoulda raised rates faster or whatever. You can always do that in hindsight.

Nope. Not what I'm complaining about. It's not the FED fucked up, it's the FED's interests are the bankers not the nation.

But giving the government -- Congress and the WH -- control of the money supply would be an unmitigated disaster. Those yahoos can't even balance a budget. You think giving them the keys to free money would be better? We'd have hyperinflation in short order.

More disasterous than what we've got now?

Could be if they pursue the same BANKERS FIRST the rest don't count polices our FED has ALWAYS had.

If you think my objection to the FED is partisan, you're truly missing hte point, Iriemon.

I don't believe there ARE two parties.

I believe there is the insiders party divided into the Red team and blue team, and wh8ile they have insignificant differences, their basic loyalty is to something other than this nation and its people.

 

[ItsFairmont]

The Federal Reserve is not a government agency.

It's a private corporation. The president appoints the chairman they tell him to appoint.


Andrew Jackson's greatest legacy was to pay off the national debt. Bankers were furious. There was no central bank then, and it's not needed now.

Inflation exists because of the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve is only beneficial to itself and not the average American worker.


Simply put: The money belongs to them, and we get to use it.

Barter for all you can and leave them out of it.

 

[editec]

Yes NOW the Fed's goverors are slected by the POTUS for 14 years.

So the fuck what?

They're still in that revolving door that the master class rotate through.

They start out in the banks which own the FED, they're sleected by POTUSs who are backed by those banks and their first and primary interest is protecting those banks from loss at ANY cost.

For christ sakes they screwed the pooch and the American people are paying for it?

Wake the fuck up.

 

[Iriemon]

The Federal Reserve is not a government agency.

It's a private corporation. The president appoints the chairman they tell him to appoint.

How many private corporations have their board appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate?

How many private corporations don't have their board elected by the shareholders?

Inflation exists because of the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve is only beneficial to itself and not the average American worker.

How does it benefit Fed? It's not a for profit organization. It's shareholders don't get bigger dividends if the Fed makes more money. It remits it to the Treasury.

 

[Iriemon]

Yes NOW the Fed's goverors are slected by the POTUS for 14 years.

So the fuck what?

How many private corporations have they're boards appointed by the President instead of by shareholders?

They're still in that revolving door that the master class rotate through.

They start out in the banks which own the FED, they're sleected by POTUSs who are backed by those banks and their first and primary interest is protecting those banks from loss at ANY cost.

For christ sakes they screwed the pooch and the American people are paying for it?

Wake the fuck up.

So, the president and the Senate are part of a big conspiracy with bankers who own the fed and use it to protect the banks. And Obama is part of the scheme too, I suppose?

PS still waiting for the proof that Bernake owns the Fed, as you claimed earlier in this thread.

 

[neurosport]

It's shareholders don't get bigger dividends if the Fed makes more money. It remits it to the Treasury.

since you're so smart, tell me - what do we need these fucking shareholders for ?

 

[Iriemon]

It's shareholders don't get bigger dividends if the Fed makes more money. It remits it to the Treasury.

since you're so smart, tell me - what do we need these fucking shareholders for ?

The shareholders are member banks in the district (federally chartered banks and state intitutions that want to apply) which pay in a percentage of their capital. They are not "shareholders" in the sense of a private corporations. Their shares provide no governing power. They shares cannot be sold or transferred. They are paid a fixed return 6% on the money they have deposited with the Fed. The don't get any more because the Fed makes more.

Here's the statute on it. 12 USC 287.

Amount of Shares; Increase and Decrease of Capital; Surrender and Cancellation of Stock
The capital stock of each Federal reserve bank shall be divided into shares of $100 each. The outstanding capital stock shall be increased from time to time as member banks increase their capital stock and surplus or as additional banks become members, and may be decreased as member banks reduce their capital stock or surplus or cease to be members. Shares of the capital stock of Federal reserve banks owned by member banks shall not be transferred or hypothecated. When a member bank increases its capital stock or surplus, it shall thereupon subscribe for an additional amount of capital stock of the Federal reserve bank of its district equal to 6 per centum of the said increase, one-half of said subscription to be paid in the manner hereinbefore provided for original subscription, and one-half subject to call of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. A bank applying for stock in a Federal reserve bank at any time after the organization thereof must subscribe for an amount of the capital stock of the Federal reserve bank equal to 6 per centum of the paid-up capital stock and surplus of said applicant bank, paying therefor its par value plus one-half of 1 per centum a month from the period of the last dividend. When a member bank reduces its capital stock or surplus it shall surrender a proportionate amount of its holdings in the capital stock of said Federal Reserve bank. Any member bank which holds capital stock of a Federal Reserve bank in excess of the amount required on the basis of 6 per centum of its paid-up capital stock and surplus shall surrender such excess stock. When a member bank voluntarily liquidates it shall surrender all of its holdings of the capital stock of said Federal Reserve bank and be released from its stock subscription not previously called. In any such case the shares surrendered shall be canceled and the member bank shall receive in payment therefor, under regulations to be prescribed by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, a sum equal to its cash-paid subscriptions on the shares surrendered and one-half of 1 per centum a month from the period of the last dividend, not to exceed the book value thereof, less any liability of such member bank to the Federal Reserve bank.

 

[wimpy77]

It's shareholders don't get bigger dividends if the Fed makes more money. It remits it to the Treasury.

since you're so smart, tell me - what do we need these fucking shareholders for ?

sounds like you're having nerd rage because someone may appear smarter than yourself.

 

[neurosport]

since you're so smart, tell me - what do we need these fucking shareholders for ?

The shareholders are member banks in the district (federally chartered banks and state intitutions that want to apply) which pay in a percentage of their capital. They are not "shareholders" in the sense of a private corporations. Their shares provide no governing power. They shares cannot be sold or transferred. They are paid a fixed return 6% on the money they have deposited with the Fed. The don't get any more because the Fed makes more.

the question was not who they are or how much they make. the question was WHY DO WE NEED THEM ?

i'm listening ?

 

[ItsFairmont]

We don't need them.

We never did.

Can we honestly say the United States of America was a failing economy up until the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913?

Nope.

The nation was doing just fine without a central bank.

Central Banks get to choose how much money is printed, and by going off the gold standard (which was technically in the 70s, but was actually long before then) we created inflation.

It's funny, because if we say inflation is 1-2% per year we are happy.

It used to take a hundred years for that to happen.

Prices were pretty much the same during Washington's presidency as they were during Lincoln's.


What confuses me is why people defend central banks like the Federal Reserve.

We really don't need them.

Furthermore, we as a nation could be completely self-sufficient, like we used to be, if we abandoned free trade and put a buttload of tariffs on imports.

The federal government was funded by tariffs back in the 1700-1800s. There was no such thing as an income tax or sales tax.

You simply paid more money for imports and got domestic products cheaper. And when you bought that expensive dress from france, part of the money you spent went to paying that tariff, which in turn was used to fund the small federal government.


Alexander Hamilton did a lot of damage to this nation with his constant whining about the need for a central bank, and eventually he got his way. But Andrew Jackson (although a tyrant to the Indians), destroyed the central bank.


I think a lot of people defend things they truly don't understand, and they make simple concepts complicated. Gold was a perfectly good measure of wealth. It worked without fail. But the only way to add more wealth to a society is to add more gold. Without an influx of gold (which did happen occasionally through various gold rushes) inflation was at a standstill.

Also, it was difficult for people to horde the gold because they had to eat too, buy lumber, etc., and those workers had to be paid.

The paper money in your wallet is not yours. It even says so right on it: "Federal Reserve Note."

It doesn't belong to you, and you don't determine its wealth. The Federal Reserve determines what "your" money is worth, and that includes your salary.


It was a Republican Congress, by the way, that invented both the Federal Reserve and the income tax, both at the same time.

Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, sold us out by signing both into law. He regretted it immediately.

And then came the Great Depression, caused by the Federal Reserve. If you don't believe me, just ask the Fed Chairman. He was quoted as saying, "Yes, we created the Great Depression."


Simply put: We do not need a central bank. We as individuals can determine the value of our goods and services just fine, thank you.


A truly free market economy doesn't have a central bank. That is undeniable.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I find the argument that the Federal Reserve is a private institution to be quite silly. My Congressman recently attempted to make that argument to me when I asked him to support H.R. 1207. If the Federal Reserve were truly a private institution they would not have been created by government statute, they would not have their chairman appointed by the government, they would not have to make reports to the Congress, and they would not be given a monopoly privilege over the creation of money by the federal government. They are a government agency, whether the government intends to admit it or not.

Where did the idea that the Fed Res was not part of the government come from? I just googled the Fed and just as many hits came up with it being part of the government as it not being part of the government. It can be confusing.