Should They Sue?

[martybegan]

I dun know what you do for a living Mini, but I daresay if I described all the members of your profession as "scum" you'd be offended. This cruise line bought a poorly-designed boat and offered berths for sale to the public, who is in no way equipped to measure a boat's safety and trusted the corporation to have done right by its customers. That trust has been abused. People have suffered -- at a minimum, because they did not get what they bargained for and because they have been subjected to extremely harsh conditions.

It is annoying and dishonest to suggest I hope a passenger dies, when I was pointing out they are at risk due to Carnival's failures. I hope everyone makes it back to shore safely, just as I am sure you do. The difference between you and I seems to be, I crave Justice while you prefer the American public underwrite the total costs of Big Business's fuck ups which cause injuries to us, regardless of how patently obvious it may be that Big Business is at fault.

Where is your source for this design flaw. Ive done some searching and all I can find is a fire in the engine room, which was sucessfully put out.

As an Engineer I know you need all the information before figuring out what happened. I also know that despite the best maintenance practices and design review things just break sometimes. Again we need to know what exactly failed to figure out what happened.

As for people with medical needs, there is a USN Carrier nearby, as well as a US CG cutter in escort. I'm sure any person with a medical issue can be medevac'd for treatment.

Does it suck that this happened? Yes. Is the event worth a 200k pain and suffering lawsuit to some person forced to eat spam for 3 days? I don't think so.

And who is paying for the USN carrier and the medevac services, martybegan? Not Carnival -- you and I. Yes, things sometimes break, but when their proper operation is a matter of human life, there are supposed to be back up mechanisms adequate to prevent operational failure.

With your "devil may care" attitude I'm grateful you aren't running a nuclear power plant -- or repairing elevators.

The navy and CG are paid for by everyone for just this sort of emergency. Or do we want to go to pay per use on the Coast Guard?

This accident did not pose any Immidiate danger to life and health. The fire fighting systems worked, the systems in place for response and rescue worked. The passagers had thier vacations ruined, and had to live under mildly adverse circumstances for a few days. Carnival is reimbursing thier costs (travel included) and offering restitution.

It is not a devil may care attitude, it is reality. The tolerances and safety margins for nuclear plants are much higher due to the increase in percived risk. As for elevators, trust me you dont want to know how maintenance is done on stuff like that.

The end result comes down to cost. How to keep something running while keeping costs down. You can improve reliability to certain extent by throwing money at it, but this comes at an increased cost, and this cost is passed down to consumers.

 

[Madeline]

Where is your source for this design flaw. Ive done some searching and all I can find is a fire in the engine room, which was sucessfully put out.

As an Engineer I know you need all the information before figuring out what happened. I also know that despite the best maintenance practices and design review things just break sometimes. Again we need to know what exactly failed to figure out what happened.

As for people with medical needs, there is a USN Carrier nearby, as well as a US CG cutter in escort. I'm sure any person with a medical issue can be medevac'd for treatment.

Does it suck that this happened? Yes. Is the event worth a 200k pain and suffering lawsuit to some person forced to eat spam for 3 days? I don't think so.

And who is paying for the USN carrier and the medevac services, martybegan? Not Carnival -- you and I. Yes, things sometimes break, but when their proper operation is a matter of human life, there are supposed to be back up mechanisms adequate to prevent operational failure.

With your "devil may care" attitude I'm grateful you aren't running a nuclear power plant -- or repairing elevators.

The navy and CG are paid for by everyone for just this sort of emergency. Or do we want to go to pay per use on the Coast Guard?

This accident did not pose any Immidiate danger to life and health. The fire fighting systems worked, the systems in place for response and rescue worked. The passagers had thier vacations ruined, and had to live under mildly adverse circumstances for a few days. Carnival is reimbursing thier costs (travel included) and offering restitution.

It is not a devil may care attitude, it is reality. The tolerances and safety margins for nuclear plants are much higher due to the increase in percived risk. As for elevators, trust me you dont want to know how maintenance is done on stuff like that.

The end result comes down to cost. How to keep something running while keeping costs down. You can improve reliability to certain extent by throwing money at it, but this comes at an increased cost, and this cost is passed down to consumers.

Are you suggesting profit is never a consideration?

 

[dilloduck]

And who is paying for the USN carrier and the medevac services, martybegan? Not Carnival -- you and I. Yes, things sometimes break, but when their proper operation is a matter of human life, there are supposed to be back up mechanisms adequate to prevent operational failure.

With your "devil may care" attitude I'm grateful you aren't running a nuclear power plant -- or repairing elevators.

The navy and CG are paid for by everyone for just this sort of emergency. Or do we want to go to pay per use on the Coast Guard?

This accident did not pose any Immidiate danger to life and health. The fire fighting systems worked, the systems in place for response and rescue worked. The passagers had thier vacations ruined, and had to live under mildly adverse circumstances for a few days. Carnival is reimbursing thier costs (travel included) and offering restitution.

It is not a devil may care attitude, it is reality. The tolerances and safety margins for nuclear plants are much higher due to the increase in percived risk. As for elevators, trust me you dont want to know how maintenance is done on stuff like that.

The end result comes down to cost. How to keep something running while keeping costs down. You can improve reliability to certain extent by throwing money at it, but this comes at an increased cost, and this cost is passed down to consumers.

Are you suggesting profit is never a consideration?

Lord let's hope so or were all screwed. You DO like to get paid for your work don't you or are you still doing that pro bono thing ?

 

[Madeline]

HUH ? You mean the cruise ships have lawyers too ? oh the humanity

Yes, but those are corporate defense lawyers. You worship them along with their corporate masters, donca?

It's just the Average Joe's lawyer you despise.

Average Joe lawyers would give their right arm to be a corporate lawyer.
Still thinking about working pro bono cause you care so much ?

Listen, dufus, I have never sued on behalf of any injured person. Neither have I defended any corporation....I brought financial crimes prosecutions (not criminally; administratively). But this bashing of the plaintiffs' bar annoys me. Wishing they'd be legislated out of business seems to me like wishing we could do away with criminal defense lawyers because then the justice system would be more "efficient".

BTW, I did do pro bono work and still do, occassionally. Small business planning and battered women's defense work. Most lawyers do such free work...when's the last time you gave away your skills and time to enrich your community?

I'm gonna guess "never"....and yet it's lawyers who suck, eh?

 

[martybegan]

And who is paying for the USN carrier and the medevac services, martybegan? Not Carnival -- you and I. Yes, things sometimes break, but when their proper operation is a matter of human life, there are supposed to be back up mechanisms adequate to prevent operational failure.

With your "devil may care" attitude I'm grateful you aren't running a nuclear power plant -- or repairing elevators.

The navy and CG are paid for by everyone for just this sort of emergency. Or do we want to go to pay per use on the Coast Guard?

This accident did not pose any Immidiate danger to life and health. The fire fighting systems worked, the systems in place for response and rescue worked. The passagers had thier vacations ruined, and had to live under mildly adverse circumstances for a few days. Carnival is reimbursing thier costs (travel included) and offering restitution.

It is not a devil may care attitude, it is reality. The tolerances and safety margins for nuclear plants are much higher due to the increase in percived risk. As for elevators, trust me you dont want to know how maintenance is done on stuff like that.

The end result comes down to cost. How to keep something running while keeping costs down. You can improve reliability to certain extent by throwing money at it, but this comes at an increased cost, and this cost is passed down to consumers.

Are you suggesting profit is never a consideration?

Profit is related to cost. Unless you are a NPO, goverment, or really bad at business profit is always a consideration.

 

[goldcatt]

Here's what I want to know before answering the question:

1. Were there any injuries, and of what nature? Also include injuries that will not be apparent immediately, like anxiety or severe insomnia. If there is harm directly attributable to the incident, there will be costs to treat that harm that Carnival should be accountable for.

2. What was the cause of the fire?

3. What individual risks did any of the passengers have to take? This would include hazards like the diabetic scenario Maddy brought up, for example. Even if life is not lost, was it realistically endangered?

4. I'd want to see a copy of the contract, of course.

5. How long exactly is it taking to tow the ship in and get the passengers home? Is there likely to be additional actual losses such as loss of wages, child care expenses, increased costs from rearranged travel plans or other actual expenses Carnival needs to reimburse?

Lots of facts missing here, but I can see where some of the passengers at least will have reason to sue. It depends on the individual harm done.

 

[Middleman]

My heart is bleeding for these pampered people. They don't have cellphones or internet, how horrible! They should sue them for all they are worth! Canned crab? Egad!

 

[goldcatt]

And somebody who ends up having panic attacks from the experience should have to pay for their own treatment? I think not. There's a reasonable place in here between demanding a gazillion over having to eat canned crab and telling people to suck it up for actual harms they may suffer. I'd wait to see what happens, but I can guarantee at least some of these passengers will have legitimate claims.

 

[mudwhistle]

My heart is bleeding for these pampered people. They don't have cellphones or internet, how horrible! They should sue them for all they are worth! Canned crab? Egad!

The cruise-ship company is responsible for the safety of the passengers. The problem is proving any damages.

 

[goldcatt]

My heart is bleeding for these pampered people. They don't have cellphones or internet, how horrible! They should sue them for all they are worth! Canned crab? Egad!

The cruise-ship company is responsible for the safety of the passengers. The problem is proving any damages.

If there are damages, it won't be a problem to prove them. See my list above, and that's quick and dirty off the top of my head. I'm sure others can think of more situations where passengers could have harms Carnival will have an obligation to compensate. Of course they may settle willingly, they're in a business that depends 100% on their clients' goodwill and heavily on return customers. But we'll see, it's early yet.

 

[Zoom-boing]

So far, it sounds like a fluke.

The Splendor left Long Beach on Sunday for a seven-day trip to the Mexican Riviera. The ship was 200 miles south of San Diego and about 44 miles off shore when the fire killed its power.

Gerry Cahill, chief executive of Carnival Corp.'s Carnival Cruise Lines, said the crankcase on one of six diesel generators "split," causing the fire. He said he doubted other ships in the Miami-based company's fleet were at risk.

"We've never had anything like this happen before, so I really don't think we have any risks to other ships," he said at a news conference Wednesday. "This is a very unusual situation."

The engine room fire created a jolt like an earthquake and smoke poured from the room, Blocker recalled.

Carnival first planned to haul the ship to the Mexican port of Ensenada, not far from a movie studio complex used to film "Titanic," and bus passengers to the U.S.

But the cruise line decided it would be better to go a little further to San Diego, sparing passengers the 50-mile bus ride to the border. San Diego also offers more transportation and hotel options.

In his comments Heald defended the ship and crew.

There will be those who will say this has been "`the cruise from hell,'" he wrote. But he continued that there are "many more who will tell you what they have been telling me and the crew and that is that Carnival as a company have done everything they can and continue to do so."

Powerless cruise ship reaches San Diego harbor - Yahoo! News

 

[syrenn]

The passengers are already entitled to a refund, as they did not get what they paid for. An offer of a free cruise in future will not make most of them whole -- they may not wish to take another cruise, or they may not be able to reassemble the family they had with them, or they may not be able to get time off work.

They had no toilets at first. They still have not hot water. They've been fed spam all this time. Is their suffering worth nothing to you?

There is a HUGE difference from being inconvenienced and suffering.

 

[martybegan]

So far, it sounds like a fluke.

The Splendor left Long Beach on Sunday for a seven-day trip to the Mexican Riviera. The ship was 200 miles south of San Diego and about 44 miles off shore when the fire killed its power.

Gerry Cahill, chief executive of Carnival Corp.'s Carnival Cruise Lines, said the crankcase on one of six diesel generators "split," causing the fire. He said he doubted other ships in the Miami-based company's fleet were at risk.

"We've never had anything like this happen before, so I really don't think we have any risks to other ships," he said at a news conference Wednesday. "This is a very unusual situation."

The engine room fire created a jolt like an earthquake and smoke poured from the room, Blocker recalled.

Carnival first planned to haul the ship to the Mexican port of Ensenada, not far from a movie studio complex used to film "Titanic," and bus passengers to the U.S.

But the cruise line decided it would be better to go a little further to San Diego, sparing passengers the 50-mile bus ride to the border. San Diego also offers more transportation and hotel options.

In his comments Heald defended the ship and crew.

There will be those who will say this has been "`the cruise from hell,'" he wrote. But he continued that there are "many more who will tell you what they have been telling me and the crew and that is that Carnival as a company have done everything they can and continue to do so."

Powerless cruise ship reaches San Diego harbor - Yahoo! News

A split crankcase? Yikes. And Im sure these arent truck diesels. I guess gushing diesel and oil was ignited by sparks or something. I know the crankcase void is usually isolated from the fuel system but probably the crankshaft went bad and cracked the whole thing.

 

[xotoxi]

They had no toilets at first. They still have not hot water. They've been fed spam all this time. Is their suffering worth nothing to you?

Should I sue Gunny because I am fed spam all the time here?

 

[Rat in the Hat]

So far, it sounds like a fluke.

The Splendor left Long Beach on Sunday for a seven-day trip to the Mexican Riviera. The ship was 200 miles south of San Diego and about 44 miles off shore when the fire killed its power.

Gerry Cahill, chief executive of Carnival Corp.'s Carnival Cruise Lines, said the crankcase on one of six diesel generators "split," causing the fire. He said he doubted other ships in the Miami-based company's fleet were at risk.

"We've never had anything like this happen before, so I really don't think we have any risks to other ships," he said at a news conference Wednesday. "This is a very unusual situation."

The engine room fire created a jolt like an earthquake and smoke poured from the room, Blocker recalled.

Carnival first planned to haul the ship to the Mexican port of Ensenada, not far from a movie studio complex used to film "Titanic," and bus passengers to the U.S.

But the cruise line decided it would be better to go a little further to San Diego, sparing passengers the 50-mile bus ride to the border. San Diego also offers more transportation and hotel options.

In his comments Heald defended the ship and crew.

There will be those who will say this has been "`the cruise from hell,'" he wrote. But he continued that there are "many more who will tell you what they have been telling me and the crew and that is that Carnival as a company have done everything they can and continue to do so."

Powerless cruise ship reaches San Diego harbor - Yahoo! News

A split crankcase? Yikes. And Im sure these arent truck diesels. I guess gushing diesel and oil was ignited by sparks or something. I know the crankcase void is usually isolated from the fuel system but probably the crankshaft went bad and cracked the whole thing.

A crankshaft failure is isolated from the fuel injection system. The fire would have been lubricating oil and packing grease igniting and burning off.

I had this happen with one of my machines, and it took 15 minutes to burn off. I would imagine one of these engines would have considerably more oil and grease, and would have burned for a longer time. The engine crew would have evacuated, and waited for the suppression systems to handle it. By the time it was put out, repair in place would not be possible due to fire damage, and a major removal and rebuild would be the only option.

 

[martybegan]

So far, it sounds like a fluke.



Powerless cruise ship reaches San Diego harbor - Yahoo! News

A split crankcase? Yikes. And Im sure these arent truck diesels. I guess gushing diesel and oil was ignited by sparks or something. I know the crankcase void is usually isolated from the fuel system but probably the crankshaft went bad and cracked the whole thing.

A crankshaft failure is isolated from the fuel injection system. The fire would have been lubricating oil and packing grease igniting and burning off.

I had this happen with one of my machines, and it took 15 minutes to burn off. I would imagine one of these engines would have considerably more oil and grease, and would have burned for a longer time. The engine crew would have evacuated, and waited for the suppression systems to handle it. By the time it was put out, repair in place would not be possible due to fire damage, and a major removal and rebuild would be the only option.

Just wondering how the fire would happen as lube oil and diesel, while flammable are kinda hard to ignite. My concept would be the shaft failed, ripping the pistions out of the block, and that would lead to whatever fuel is in the block exiting with the oil. I did miss the fact that the fuel injection would stop once the engine fell apart, on that I agree.

Will have to wait until the report I guess.

 

[Wicked Jester]

"Brass ring"? So IYO, only greedy people sue? What about those who have been injured and cannot be healed. I know this would traumatize me. Have you stopped to consider what these passengers are going through? What happens to people with diabetes, whose insulin could not be kept cool? Without electricity, what medical care is possible?

I am just amazed at the hostility towards your neighbor and shameless corporate worship that seems to motivate those of you who are hostile to tort law suits. Apparently IYO, the corporations should NEVER be held responsible and a good American just absorbs the consequences of their greed, incompetence or error, no matter how badly he may be injured?

And how many have died/been injured as a result?

Are you speculating, salivating for a death so someone will have a real payday?

Death or not, there will be no lawsuits from this. That is because Carnival is stepping up and assuming responsibility. If/when someone dies from a lack of insulin, Carnival will mediate and pay. Sure, some lawyer scum is going to make a buck off of it, most probably more than what the true damages are, but your salivating desire to see legal carnage come from this isn't going to happen. No matter how much you wish the "evil corporation" responsible would act like Torquemada, they have done nothing but the right thing from the start, and have shown nothing but a willingness to make this right by their customers.

Sure, lawyers will file suits.

Carnival is smarter than the lawyers (aren't we all?) so they will settle without a verdict.

I dun know what you do for a living Mini, but I daresay if I described all the members of your profession as "scum" you'd be offended. This cruise line bought a poorly-designed boat and offered berths for sale to the public, who is in no way equipped to measure a boat's safety and trusted the corporation to have done right by its customers. That trust has been abused. People have suffered -- at a minimum, because they did not get what they bargained for and because they have been subjected to extremely harsh conditions.

It is annoying and dishonest to suggest I hope a passenger dies, when I was pointing out they are at risk due to Carnival's failures. I hope everyone makes it back to shore safely, just as I am sure you do. The difference between you and I seems to be, I crave Justice while you prefer the American public underwrite the total costs of Big Business's fuck ups which cause injuries to us, regardless of how patently obvious it may be that Big Business is at fault.

And just how in the fuck do you know that "Carnival bought a poorly designed boat"?

BTW, it's a SHIP, not a boat.

Seriously, do you EVER think before you speak?

 

[ConHog]

They will sue, and they will settle. Carnival has done the right thing all along here, and assumed full and complete responsibility. They will offer more and more as restitution to the passengers, but there will be those who try to grab the brass ring.

The majority will accept Carnival's various offers and be satisfied, but there will be those who hold out for a trial. Carnival will likely settle before trial, as they have already admitted to their responsibility and offered to make it right however they can.

"Brass ring"? So IYO, only greedy people sue? What about those who have been injured and cannot be healed. I know this would traumatize me. Have you stopped to consider what these passengers are going through? What happens to people with diabetes, whose insulin could not be kept cool? Without electricity, what medical care is possible?

I am just amazed at the hostility towards your neighbor and shameless corporate worship that seems to motivate those of you who are hostile to tort law suits. Apparently IYO, the corporations should NEVER be held responsible and a good American just absorbs the consequences of their greed, incompetence or error, no matter how badly he may be injured?

You're insane. I'm sure any medicine was kept safe, AND if anyone needed medical care beyond what was available on board that the very same transportation that is bringing supplies to the ship has also transported those cases off the ship.

This would traumatize you? My aren't you a delicate flower : sarcasm off

 

[Madeline]

They had no toilets at first. They still have not hot water. They've been fed spam all this time. Is their suffering worth nothing to you?

Should I sue Gunny because I am fed spam all the time here?

No, I will stop PM'ing you. You only needed to ask, yanno.

*Sniffs*

*Laughs*

 

[Madeline]

And how many have died/been injured as a result?

Are you speculating, salivating for a death so someone will have a real payday?

Death or not, there will be no lawsuits from this. That is because Carnival is stepping up and assuming responsibility. If/when someone dies from a lack of insulin, Carnival will mediate and pay. Sure, some lawyer scum is going to make a buck off of it, most probably more than what the true damages are, but your salivating desire to see legal carnage come from this isn't going to happen. No matter how much you wish the "evil corporation" responsible would act like Torquemada, they have done nothing but the right thing from the start, and have shown nothing but a willingness to make this right by their customers.

Sure, lawyers will file suits.

Carnival is smarter than the lawyers (aren't we all?) so they will settle without a verdict.

I dun know what you do for a living Mini, but I daresay if I described all the members of your profession as "scum" you'd be offended. This cruise line bought a poorly-designed boat and offered berths for sale to the public, who is in no way equipped to measure a boat's safety and trusted the corporation to have done right by its customers. That trust has been abused. People have suffered -- at a minimum, because they did not get what they bargained for and because they have been subjected to extremely harsh conditions.

It is annoying and dishonest to suggest I hope a passenger dies, when I was pointing out they are at risk due to Carnival's failures. I hope everyone makes it back to shore safely, just as I am sure you do. The difference between you and I seems to be, I crave Justice while you prefer the American public underwrite the total costs of Big Business's fuck ups which cause injuries to us, regardless of how patently obvious it may be that Big Business is at fault.

And just how in the fuck do you know that "Carnival bought a poorly designed boat"?

BTW, it's a SHIP, not a boat.

Seriously, do you EVER think before you speak?

WJ, this is an adult convo. I have been advocating for lawsuits on this thread partially because no one else is, and if all of us agrees there is no debate.

Kindly take your personal animosity towards me and shove it up your fakey-christian ass. If anyone besides you cares that you got spanked by me on a religion thread, perchance you can solicit support from them in a flame thread. This ain't one -- it was written and has been posted to so people can discuss tort law issues, not your personal needs for a tissue.