Should the Military Enlist Non-US Citizens?

[Turboswede]

I have been thinking about the role of the Citizen Soldier in a time of war and it’s interesting to see the contribution made by Non-US Citizens to the war effort. I think that it may be going too far to allow non-citizens into the armed forces as it may create a “foreign legion” who’s loyalty is to the unit rather than the U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm

Opinions?

 

[Article 15]

Yes, they should allow them to enlist.

No, it will not create a foreign legion.

 

[CSM]

I have been thinking about the role of the Citizen Soldier in a time of war and it’s interesting to see the contribution made by Non-US Citizens to the war effort. I think that it may be going too far to allow non-citizens into the armed forces as it may create a “foreign legion” who’s loyalty is to the unit rather than the U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm

Opinions?

Non-citizens have served honorably and even heroically in the US military throughout it's history. We have not had a military coup because of it.

 

[Gunny]

I have been thinking about the role of the Citizen Soldier in a time of war and it’s interesting to see the contribution made by Non-US Citizens to the war effort. I think that it may be going too far to allow non-citizens into the armed forces as it may create a “foreign legion” who’s loyalty is to the unit rather than the U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm

Opinions?

It does and has, and there is no problem with it since those applicants are pursuing US citizenship LEGALLY.

Should the US military enlist illegal immigrants? NO.

 

[pegwinn]

I have been thinking about the role of the Citizen Soldier in a time of war and it’s interesting to see the contribution made by Non-US Citizens to the war effort. I think that it may be going too far to allow non-citizens into the armed forces as it may create a “foreign legion” who’s loyalty is to the unit rather than the U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm

Opinions?

No Sir. Lawful immigrants are a legitimate strata of American society. They share in the advantages and benefits. As your own article demonstrates, the best among them also share the dangers. So long as such men and women continue to serve, you have no worries.

And, to rise upon this box of soap, lawful immigrants are well aware of what they are fighting to preserve. The same cannot always be said of those born here. I oppose a general draft only because of the immediate lowering of the quality of our services that would ensue. But, at least the spoiled rich kid as well as the trailer trash would learn why being an American is a genuine blessing.

 

[Againsheila]

I have been thinking about the role of the Citizen Soldier in a time of war and it’s interesting to see the contribution made by Non-US Citizens to the war effort. I think that it may be going too far to allow non-citizens into the armed forces as it may create a “foreign legion” who’s loyalty is to the unit rather than the U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm

Opinions?

We've always allowed non-citizens to join our armed forces. I have no problem with that. They however, do not allow illegals to join, nor should they. Anyone that joins our military who is not already a citizen, should immediately put on the fast track for citizenship.

During WWII, many Americans went up to Canada and joined their military to fight in the war before our country finally joined the war.

 

[Againsheila]

No Sir. Lawful immigrants are a legitimate strata of American society. They share in the advantages and benefits. As your own article demonstrates, the best among them also share the dangers. So long as such men and women continue to serve, you have no worries.

And, to rise upon this box of soap, lawful immigrants are well aware of what they are fighting to preserve. The same cannot always be said of those born here. I oppose a general draft only because of the immediate lowering of the quality of our services that would ensue. But, at least the spoiled rich kid as well as the trailer trash would learn why being an American is a genuine blessing.

Sorry to break it to you, but even in a draft, the spoiled rich kid is much less likely to have to serve than the rest of us. Quayle went into the national guard and was NEVER called up for service. Al Gore served with body guards and did only certain duties. Heck, Bush Sr in one of his speeches as much as admitted that the rich were not drafted, though I'm should that's not what he'd intended to say when he said something to the affect of "While poor Americans were being drafted..."

I can't remember the exact words. I have it on tape somewhere but am really too lazy to look for it.

 

[pegwinn]

Sorry to break it to you, but even in a draft, the spoiled rich kid is much less likely to have to serve than the rest of us. Quayle went into the national guard and was NEVER called up for service. Al Gore served with body guards and did only certain duties. Heck, Bush Sr in one of his speeches as much as admitted that the rich were not drafted, though I'm should that's not what he'd intended to say when he said something to the affect of "While poor Americans were being drafted..."

I can't remember the exact words. I have it on tape somewhere but am really too lazy to look for it.

Agreed towards the end of the draft that it was corrupted way beyond recovery. And, historically, folks have been able to literally buy out of service dating at least to the civil war that I personally have read about. I am not that naive.

During WWII the universal draft was closer to what I was describing. There were exceptions, but since the nation was fighting for it's life instead of the UN (as in Korea) or the domino effect (Vietnam) it was far more accepted by the people.

Current demographics show that the military is not all poverty stricken gang bangers by any stretch. All but a scant handful are HS Grads. All but a scant handful are free and clear of criminal records. The GT scores are rising yearly so it isn't idiots either. Those are the standards I wish to preserve, and a draft would destroy.

But if I had to design a draft it would actually be intelligently based on the Soviet or Israeli model.

 

[Turboswede]

Sorry to break it to you, but even in a draft, the spoiled rich kid is much less likely to have to serve than the rest of us. Quayle went into the national guard and was NEVER called up for service. Al Gore served with body guards and did only certain duties. Heck, Bush Sr in one of his speeches as much as admitted that the rich were not drafted, though I'm should that's not what he'd intended to say when he said something to the affect of "While poor Americans were being drafted..."

I can't remember the exact words. I have it on tape somewhere but am really too lazy to look for it.

I disagree in that the current military is far less diverse across the economic spectrum than the Vietnam era conscripted army. The rich never need to serve unless they want to regardless of whether or not service is voluntary. The thing is the middle class was much better represented in the Vietnam era. I don’t have numbers handy, but my father in law had no intention of service in the military in 1967. He had a wife and a good job at Boeing and there was no financial incentive to serve, but he responded to the nation’s call.

With conscription you also have a geographic representation of the nation serving in the armed forces as well as young men (and potentially women) from very different backgrounds. In this day and age of insular communities, national service would bring Americans together with a common experience.

In starting this thread I did not want to imply that I did not respect those Non-Citizens who serve in the armed forces. I know they have sacrificed on the altar of freedom as much as anyone. My main interest was to see how people on the board felt about the issue.

 

[Gunny]

Sorry to break it to you, but even in a draft, the spoiled rich kid is much less likely to have to serve than the rest of us. Quayle went into the national guard and was NEVER called up for service. Al Gore served with body guards and did only certain duties. Heck, Bush Sr in one of his speeches as much as admitted that the rich were not drafted, though I'm should that's not what he'd intended to say when he said something to the affect of "While poor Americans were being drafted..."

I can't remember the exact words. I have it on tape somewhere but am really too lazy to look for it.

Which has nothing to do with is point. When you draft people, you end up with people that don't want to be there, or are even against being there. I'm sure the MSgt and I are on the same sheet of music in saying we don't want people like THAT behind us with loaded weapons, nor counting on them to be part of a precision instrument such as a Marine rifle squad, half-assing along and getting someone killed due to their negligence and apathy.

Same goes for spoiled brats. I don't want some rich brat who thinks he's privileged and too good to get dirty with the rest of us not carrying his load as part of the team.

I'd rather have a legal immigrant who knows at the end of the trail he gets hus citizenship and has a reason to perform his duties to the best of his abilities ANY day. I've had them, and they were NOT my problem children.

 

[Gunny]

I disagree in that the current military is far less diverse across the economic spectrum than the Vietnam era conscripted army. The rich never need to serve unless they want to regardless of whether or not service is voluntary. The thing is the middle class was much better represented in the Vietnam era. I don’t have numbers handy, but my father in law had no intention of service in the military in 1967. He had a wife and a good job at Boeing and there was no financial incentive to serve, but he responded to the nation’s call.

With conscription you also have a geographic representation of the nation serving in the armed forces as well as young men (and potentially women) from very different backgrounds. In this day and age of insular communities, national service would bring Americans together with a common experience.

In starting this thread I did not want to imply that I did not respect those Non-Citizens who serve in the armed forces. I know they have sacrificed on the altar of freedom as much as anyone. My main interest was to see how people on the board felt about the issue.

I disagree for the reasons stated in my previous post. I don't want to die for someone's idealistic but misguided "America the Melting Pot" plan.

 

[pegwinn]

Which has nothing to do with is point. When you draft people, you end up with people that don't want to be there, or are even against being there. I'm sure the MSgt and I are on the same sheet of music in saying we don't want people like THAT behind us with loaded weapons, nor counting on them to be part of a precision instrument such as a Marine rifle squad, half-assing along and getting someone killed due to their negligence and apathy.

Same goes for spoiled brats. I don't want some rich brat who thinks he's privileged and too good to get dirty with the rest of us not carrying his load as part of the team.

I'd rather have a legal immigrant who knows at the end of the trail he gets hus citizenship and has a reason to perform his duties to the best of his abilities ANY day. I've had them, and they were NOT my problem children.

Absofreakinglutley. Emphasis added above BTW. My worst problem kid was a very senior enlisted guys son. Nice kid but thought he was protected and so did just enough to avoid an ass whipping in a figurative sense of course.

I attended a citizen swearing in and reenlistment ceremony for two of my Marines aboard (if memory serves) the USS Midway in San Diego. Pretty Freaking Awesome. Was in late 01 as we were getting ready to mount out.