Should students at college be allowed to carry concealed firearms?

[Gunny]

Gunny's a good guy, perhaps I was a bit too vehement in that last post. I think he and I just have an honest difference of opinion.

Yes, we have a difference of opinion, and it is not my intention to be hostile. Consider this ...

Most of the people here with military experience all say the same thing ... arming people of that age is just asking for it. We've all seen it in practical application, and it only takes a few idiots. I watched a Marine when I was in my early twenties improperly clear a .50 cal and pump a round into another Marine. It just about cut him in half.

For every student you think is mature enough to carry a loaded weapon, there is one who envisions himself as "Wild Bill Hickock" or Audie Murphy.

One student pulls out a gun because it's uncomfortable (and they are), and another blows his ass away jumping to conclusions.

In this case, IMO, the cure is worse than the disease.

 

[MissileMan]

It is a bit much to also expect college-aged people to have the maturity and wherewithall to use a firearm in a panic situation.

You mean untrained college-aged people right?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

At what frikkin' point does someone become an adult? I thought if someone is 21 they are entitled by law to bear arms per the 2nd. Does being on a campus somehow make you less of a citizen? Somehow more stupid and irresponsible? Maybe so....campuses are primarily liberal...

Why is it liberals think 21 year old college students should not carry guns because "people can get killed" when on the other hand they think a 14 year old is old enough to get an abortion by herself - which means killing someone too. Liberals are backasswards idiots.

Also, there are plenty of adults much older than 21 who attend colleges too. Just because they are students does that mean they should not carry on campus? They are legal adults and entitled to their Constitutional rights.

I think all ROTC students in uniform should be permitted to carry on campus too, even if they are under 21, because they are military.

Non-citizens should not be allowed to buy or carry.

College ain't kindergarten. The presence of guns on campus might have a positive and chilling effect on rampant irresponsible liberalism.

 

[Vintij]

The state laws regarding institutionalizing are what suck. Causes lots of heartbreak and stress on families.

Can it be fixed is the question. And yes gunny I agree that natural citizens have the gun rights, not immigrants here on visas.

So healthcare is crap, we know that. How do we fix it? Who pays for the medical bills that give mentally insane people, a chance at a normal life? Who even wants to help these people? Can they be helped?

 

[acludem]

It came out today that this guy wouldn't have been allowed to purchase guns if a proper background check had been conducted. But since the Bush DOJ decided not to enforce existing gun laws, it didn't happen.

I'm not trying to lay blame for this tragedy on the Bush administration, I'm just pointing out that if they weren't in the pocket of the NRA gun nuts, tragedies like this could be far more preventable.

acludem

 

[Annie]

Can it be fixed is the question. And yes gunny I agree that natural citizens have the gun rights, not immigrants here on visas.

So healthcare is crap, we know that. How do we fix it? Who pays for the medical bills that give mentally insane people, a chance at a normal life? Who even wants to help these people? Can they be helped?

Well it used to be that you could just 'lock up' relatives that you found hard to get along with. Then there were lobotomies, electro shock, etc. Now as a society, we've gone too far the other direction. Now we ask people, "Would you like to be locked up?" Funny, most say, 'no.'

 

[Gunny]

You mean untrained college-aged people right?

I certainly am not knocking training when I say all the training in the world doesn't mean squat when the shit hits the fan. That is another thing I have seen firsthand.

The geeky little turd with two left feet stands calm while Billy Badass who's got all the talk and all the skills stand there like a deer in the headlights until you knock his dumb ass down so he doesn't get shot.

 

[Gunny]

It came out today that this guy wouldn't have been allowed to purchase guns if a proper background check had been conducted. But since the Bush DOJ decided not to enforce existing gun laws, it didn't happen.

I'm not trying to lay blame for this tragedy on the Bush administration, I'm just pointing out that if they weren't in the pocket of the NRA gun nuts, tragedies like this could be far more preventable.

acludem

Y'know, I was right with you until you tried to blame it on Bush. And yes, you ARE trying to blame it on him.

THIS has NOTHING to do with either Bush, nor the NRA.

It does have a lot to do with who your ID is named after. If people weren't afraid of getting nailed with a lawsuit for labelling someone crazy, this guy might have never slipped under the radar because he would have popped on the background check.

Do your homework.

 

[maineman]

I certainly am not knocking training when I say all the training in the world doesn't mean squat when the shit hits the fan. That is another thing I have seen firsthand.

The geeky little turd with two left feet stands calm while Billy Badass who's got all the talk and all the skills stand there like a deer in the headlights until you knock his dumb ass down so he doesn't get shot.

ain't THAT the truth!

 

[Dirt McGirt]

Here's an interesting read. Kind of sums the points made by both sides and is reflective of the debate ongoing in this thread.


----------------------
Should students be allowed to carry concealed weapons?
By Jared Flesher and Alexandra Marks
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

The deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech on Monday has reignited an emotional debate about whether students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus.

Virginia Tech, like most universities around the country, forbids students from having guns on campus. But as an increasing number of states have passed laws that allow people to carry concealed weapons, gun advocates from Virginia to Utah have also challenged the academic policies that prohibit weapons at colleges and universities.

Their argument is that guns can save lives. If the students at Virginia Tech were armed, they contend, they might have been able to stop the rampage before more than 30 of their classmates were killed.

"The only way you stop people like that is with like force," says Todd Gilbert, a Republican delegate in Virginia's General Assembly. "This guy, when he went on campus, certainly must have known he was entering a gun-free zone."

But opponents of guns on campus argue that their presence would dramatically increase violence in a variety of ways – from accidental discharges to fights being settled with bullets instead of fists. On their side are most university presidents and many law-enforcement officials, as well as academic research.

"The best science that we have says concealed carry laws do not save lives, as the proponents contend," says Jon Vernick, co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research in Baltimore.

That conclusion, while controversial among gun advocates, was recently endorsed by the American Academy of Sciences, according to Mr. Vernick. And Tuesday, law-enforcement officials in Virginia were quick to voice their concern that any more guns in a situation as chaotic as Monday's could have resulted in more harm than good.

"You can never protect against this kind of incident," said Dana Schrad, executive director of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police, in a telephone interview. "I have my own concerns that, had there been a number of people who had been in that classroom with guns, [there could have been] additional persons killed just as a result of poor judgment calls."

But such arguments do not convince gun advocates. Mr. Gilbert, the General Assembly delegate, started fighting to allow guns on campus after an incident in 2005 involving another Virginia Tech student. The individual, who had a valid permit, was discovered carrying a concealed handgun on campus. He was told that, according to university policy, he could not carry it. If he did, he risked expulsion.

Gilbert then introduced a bill in the General Assembly in 2006. It would have allowed students or employees with concealed-handgun permits to carry those guns on state university campuses without risk of being expelled or fired. (A Virginia resident must be at least 21 years old to receive such a permit, and guns would still not have been allowed inside dorms or at sporting events.) Gilbert introduced the bill at the urging of the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL), a gun-rights organization with 6,000 members.

"I talk to students all the time who are angry that they can't protect themselves. But they don't want to take a chance on getting kicked out," says Philip Van Cleave, president of the VCDL.

But Gilbert's bill never made it past the subcommittee level, in part because it was opposed by the state's universities and by the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police.

In Utah, a similar proposal became law, and it was upheld by the Utah Supreme Court last year despite fierce opposition from officials at the University of Utah. As a result, students 21 or older who have permits can now carry guns on campus and into classrooms. But a new law passed this year allows students to request roommates who do not carry guns.

In other states that have enacted concealed carry laws, including Nebraska, lawmakers have continued to make exemptions that forbid concealed guns on school grounds, in school-owned vehicles, and at school-sponsored events and most athletic competitions.

Gun-control advocates say they'll continue to fight to keep as many guns off campus in as many states as possible.

"Almost every college that has looked at this issue feels they can do a better job of protecting their students by banning guns on campus and taking responsibility to provide good security," says Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington. "I'm not sure any campus would like to advertise, 'Come to our campus. We have more guns per capita than any other campus.' "

When the issue is debated again as expected this year in Virginia, gun-control advocates will be lining up with members of the academic community in opposing an expanded presence of guns on campus. They believe the problem is that the country already has too many guns.

"We have access to these weapons, and there are people who get angry, and with that access they will use them," says Jim Sollo, vice president of Virginians Against Handgun Violence, a group with 800 members that advocates gun-control measures. "I fear that we will continue to have mass shootings here in the United States."

But gun advocate Mr. Van Cleave contends that control is not the solution. "Gun control only works with the good guys," he says. "Good people obey the laws. The people you're worried about don't. I don't think [the campus shooting] is going to bode well for gun control."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0418/p02s02-ussc.html?page=1

 

[Gunny]

Here's an interesting read. Kind of sums the points made by both sides and is reflective of the debate ongoing in this thread.


----------------------
Should students be allowed to carry concealed weapons?
By Jared Flesher and Alexandra Marks
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

The deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech on Monday has reignited an emotional debate about whether students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus.

Virginia Tech, like most universities around the country, forbids students from having guns on campus. But as an increasing number of states have passed laws that allow people to carry concealed weapons, gun advocates from Virginia to Utah have also challenged the academic policies that prohibit weapons at colleges and universities.

Their argument is that guns can save lives. If the students at Virginia Tech were armed, they contend, they might have been able to stop the rampage before more than 30 of their classmates were killed.

"The only way you stop people like that is with like force," says Todd Gilbert, a Republican delegate in Virginia's General Assembly. "This guy, when he went on campus, certainly must have known he was entering a gun-free zone."

But opponents of guns on campus argue that their presence would dramatically increase violence in a variety of ways – from accidental discharges to fights being settled with bullets instead of fists. On their side are most university presidents and many law-enforcement officials, as well as academic research.

"The best science that we have says concealed carry laws do not save lives, as the proponents contend," says Jon Vernick, co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research in Baltimore.

That conclusion, while controversial among gun advocates, was recently endorsed by the American Academy of Sciences, according to Mr. Vernick. And Tuesday, law-enforcement officials in Virginia were quick to voice their concern that any more guns in a situation as chaotic as Monday's could have resulted in more harm than good.

"You can never protect against this kind of incident," said Dana Schrad, executive director of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police, in a telephone interview. "I have my own concerns that, had there been a number of people who had been in that classroom with guns, [there could have been] additional persons killed just as a result of poor judgment calls."

But such arguments do not convince gun advocates. Mr. Gilbert, the General Assembly delegate, started fighting to allow guns on campus after an incident in 2005 involving another Virginia Tech student. The individual, who had a valid permit, was discovered carrying a concealed handgun on campus. He was told that, according to university policy, he could not carry it. If he did, he risked expulsion.

Gilbert then introduced a bill in the General Assembly in 2006. It would have allowed students or employees with concealed-handgun permits to carry those guns on state university campuses without risk of being expelled or fired. (A Virginia resident must be at least 21 years old to receive such a permit, and guns would still not have been allowed inside dorms or at sporting events.) Gilbert introduced the bill at the urging of the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL), a gun-rights organization with 6,000 members.

"I talk to students all the time who are angry that they can't protect themselves. But they don't want to take a chance on getting kicked out," says Philip Van Cleave, president of the VCDL.

But Gilbert's bill never made it past the subcommittee level, in part because it was opposed by the state's universities and by the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police.

In Utah, a similar proposal became law, and it was upheld by the Utah Supreme Court last year despite fierce opposition from officials at the University of Utah. As a result, students 21 or older who have permits can now carry guns on campus and into classrooms. But a new law passed this year allows students to request roommates who do not carry guns.

In other states that have enacted concealed carry laws, including Nebraska, lawmakers have continued to make exemptions that forbid concealed guns on school grounds, in school-owned vehicles, and at school-sponsored events and most athletic competitions.

Gun-control advocates say they'll continue to fight to keep as many guns off campus in as many states as possible.

"Almost every college that has looked at this issue feels they can do a better job of protecting their students by banning guns on campus and taking responsibility to provide good security," says Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington. "I'm not sure any campus would like to advertise, 'Come to our campus. We have more guns per capita than any other campus.' "

When the issue is debated again as expected this year in Virginia, gun-control advocates will be lining up with members of the academic community in opposing an expanded presence of guns on campus. They believe the problem is that the country already has too many guns.

"We have access to these weapons, and there are people who get angry, and with that access they will use them," says Jim Sollo, vice president of Virginians Against Handgun Violence, a group with 800 members that advocates gun-control measures. "I fear that we will continue to have mass shootings here in the United States."

But gun advocate Mr. Van Cleave contends that control is not the solution. "Gun control only works with the good guys," he says. "Good people obey the laws. The people you're worried about don't. I don't think [the campus shooting] is going to bode well for gun control."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0418/p02s02-ussc.html?page=1

The biggest problem I see with this article is, it attempts to superimpose general numbers, which I question, onto a situation that all would agree is unique.

If you remove this incident and place it in an area common to and frequented by the general public in large numbers, I disagree that someone carrying a concealed weapon doesn't make a difference.

If this happened in a shopping mall, I'd drop that idiot before he got off more than a 10 rd mag. That's 22 less deaths, hypothetically speaking.

And while I posess both natural and trained skills and experience with firearms and would not hesitate to take the shot; which, would make me better than many, I am hardly unique in that category.

Another thing the VT incident starkly illustrates, if you remove it from a school and place it in one of the aforementioned areas, is that when the general public is disarmed, the criminal is free to kill unhindered by the worry of reprisal.

A person such as this who sets out to commit a crime doesn't give a damn about a handgun law. It just means he's breaking one more law. Disarming the public is just handing him a gift.

 

[MissileMan]

I certainly am not knocking training when I say all the training in the world doesn't mean squat when the shit hits the fan. That is another thing I have seen firsthand.

The geeky little turd with two left feet stands calm while Billy Badass who's got all the talk and all the skills stand there like a deer in the headlights until you knock his dumb ass down so he doesn't get shot.

But with the aid of an "armed self-defense" course, college-aged adults could be expected to react reasonably when it came to it, don't you think?

 

[hjmick]

A little more food for thought, from potential presidential candidate Fred Thompson:

Signs of Intelligence?
By Fred Thompson

One of the things that's got to be going through a lot of peoples' minds now is how one man with two handguns, that he had to reload time and time again, could go from classroom to classroom on the Virginia Tech campus without being stopped. Much of the answer can be found in policies put in place by the university itself.

Virginia, like 39 other states, allows citizens with training and legal permits to carry concealed weapons. That means that Virginians regularly sit in movie theaters and eat in restaurants among armed citizens. They walk, joke, and rub shoulders everyday with people who responsibly carry firearms — and are far safer than they would be in San Francisco, Oakland, Detroit, Chicago, New York City, or Washington, D.C., where such permits are difficult or impossible to obtain.

The statistics are clear. Communities that recognize and grant Second Amendment rights to responsible adults have a significantly lower incidence of violent crime than those that do not. More to the point, incarcerated criminals tell criminologists that they consider local gun laws when they decide what sort of crime they will commit, and where they will do so.

Still, there are a lot of people who are just offended by the notion that people can carry guns around. They view everybody, or at least many of us, as potential murderers prevented only by the lack of a convenient weapon. Virginia Tech administrators overrode Virginia state law and threatened to expel or fire anybody who brings a weapon onto campus.

In recent years, however, armed Americans — not on-duty police officers — have successfully prevented a number of attempted mass murders. Evidence from Israel, where many teachers have weapons and have stopped serious terror attacks, has been documented...

So Virginians asked their legislators to change the university's "concealed carry" policy to exempt people 21 years of age or older who have passed background checks and taken training classes. The university, however, lobbied against that bill, and a top administrator subsequently praised the legislature for blocking the measure.

The logic behind this attitude baffles me, but I suspect it has to do with a basic difference in worldviews. Some people think that power should exist only at the top, and everybody else should rely on "the authorities" for protection.

Despite such attitudes, average Americans have always made up the front line against crime. Through programs like Neighborhood Watch and Amber Alert, we are stopping and catching criminals daily. Normal people tackled "shoe bomber" Richard Reid as he was trying to blow up an airliner. It was a truck driver who found the D.C. snipers. Statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that civilians use firearms to prevent at least a half million crimes annually.

When people capable of performing acts of heroism are discouraged or denied the opportunity, our society is all the poorer. And from the selfless examples of the passengers on Flight 93 on 9/11 to Virginia Tech professor Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor who sacrificed himself to save his students earlier this week, we know what extraordinary acts of heroism ordinary citizens are capable of...

Whenever I've seen one of those "Gun-free Zone" signs, especially outside of a school filled with our youngest and most vulnerable citizens, I've always wondered exactly who these signs are directed at. Obviously, they don't mean much to the sort of man who murdered 32 people just a few days ago.

— Fred Thompson is an actor and former United States senator from Tennessee.

Signs of Intelligence? complete article...

 

[Gunny]

But with the aid of an "armed self-defense" course, college-aged adults could be expected to react reasonably when it came to it, don't you think?

I think the questions that would have to be asked, and the exclusivity of arming only certain students would lead to accusations of bias, more than likely someone suing the school.

I'd want a complete psych eval, extensive training under realistic conditions, and anonymity for the carrier.

But then, what precedent are you setting? Columbine is a HS, no? Want to arem HS students?

Don't get me wrong ... I am all for preventative measures. I just don't think arming students is the best way to accomplish maximum securty.

 

[Gunny]

A little more food for thought, from potential presidential candidate Fred Thompson:

Another check in the "Got my vote" box.

 

[MissileMan]

I think the questions that would have to be asked, and the exclusivity of arming only certain students would lead to accusations of bias, more than likely someone suing the school.

I'd want a complete psych eval, extensive training under realistic conditions, and anonymity for the carrier.

But then, what precedent are you setting? Columbine is a HS, no? Want to arem HS students?

Don't get me wrong ... I am all for preventative measures. I just don't think arming students is the best way to accomplish maximum securty.

The class would be a requirement for the Concealed Carry License. I'm not arguing to establish some undercover student police force.

 

[hjmick]

Another check in the "Got my vote" box.

He's my guy. Now, if he would only run and get the nomination we're all set.

 

[Gunny]

He's my guy. Now, if he would only run and get the nomination we're all set.

He needs to. The current crop of Republican candidates aren't exactly what I would call appealing.

 

[red states rule]

He needs to. The current crop of Republican candidates aren't exactly what I would call appealing.

and who do the Dems have?

 

[red states rule]

aother shining example of the "reporting" done by the liberal media


ABC News: VT Killer 'Purchased Ammo' on Ebay... But Ebay Doesn't SELL Ammunition!
Posted by Warner Todd Huston on April 21, 2007 - 20:55.
ABC News tries its hand at sensationalism with a story on the VT killer buying "ammo" on the auction site Ebay, but muffs it badly getting all the relevant facts wrong. But it sure is a good headline... Ammo from eBay? VT Killer May Have Used Site


April 21, 2007 — ABCNews has learned that in the months before his shooting spree at Virginia Tech, Seung-Hui Cho may have purchased 20 rounds of ammunition through the online auction site eBay.
An eBay account holder who appears to be Cho purchased a two-pack of 10-round ammunition clips for a Walther P22 on March 22, 2007, less than a month before Cho killed 32 people and himself at Virginia Tech. The ammunition was purchased on eBay from Elk Ridge Shooting Supplies for the same type of weapon used by Cho in his bloody rampage last week.

Problem is, Ebay doesn't sell ammunition... it doesn't even sell guns. What the VT killer bought were clips (magazines), not "ammo"-- if it was even him .
Will ABC News correct itself? Will ABC News admit it was not only misinformed on an easily checked issue, but acted with tabloid journalism to boot?

Keep watching and let's see.

http://newsbusters.org/node/12212