Should students at college be allowed to carry concealed firearms?

[Vintij]

I agree with shogun, an airplane is not someplace you want a gun to be fired unless you are the captian. A courthouse is not a place where you want a gun popping of unless your a bailif. A school is not someplace you want a gun going off unless your a campus police. My point? These people are professionals and they have been through years of training, they are in uniform, they dont panic. Why let any random civilian, walk into these federal zones with a live weapon? A school is for learning, not firing a gun. Just like a plane is for flying, a courthouse is for trials. I know I wouldnt want some crazy gang member popping off because his homie just got sentenced to 20 years in prison, a school is no different. Outside these places, thats a different subject, but inside these places, it is not acceptable.

 

[Shogun]

thanks Vin...


I would, however, be open to increasing security and carried guns on campus with, say, a criminal justice intern program for senior students looking for experience to take into the field.....

it's the offer of a compramise at least...

 

[Gunny]

Oh yeah, great law. Worked fantastically yesterday

You'd have to be either an idiot or a DemoKKKrat (redundant, I know) to believe that nonsense. Dumbass.

I am neither a Democrat, nor a liberal, and I completely agree with statement you quoted.

It is OUR repsonsibility as adult members of our society to ensure our children are educated in a safe environment. Turning college campuses in Dodge City is NOT the answer.

One moron, who turned out to be pretty-much the psycho from Hell chose to not obey the handgun ban. How far should we overreact to one psycho?

IMO, security was inadequate. Identifying this guy as a nutjob when he clearly has been giving every indication of being one for a couple of years got lost in the politically correct wussiness of not wanting to offend him.

Had the counsleor's reports been taken ONE step further, he'd have had a "cukoo" judgement against him and would have popped on the background check.

Video surveillance on all entrances/exits and in all common areas and someone monitoring them at a central location would have identified him immediately after killing the first two people, and police could have reacted to THAT, instead of having to start at trying to figure out who he was.

 

[Vintij]

Great ideas gunny. Though I dont agree with some of it, at least a pro gun member is willing to compromise, I dont understand why its so hard to at least adress the gun issue and compromise with non gun owners.

I would gladly allow NON lethal guns on campus, so long as the lethal gun laws get tougher. Its a compromise. A non lethal gun can protect someone the same as a lethal one, incompasitation.

Thats all us gun bashers want, we want NON lethal protection to be the future of weapons. We are not talking a BEBE gun, we are talking non lethal guns that knock you out, but dont kill you.

 

[Gunny]

Great ideas gunny. Though I dont agree with some of it, at least a pro gun member is willing to compromise, I dont understand why its so hard to at least adress the gun issue and compromise with non gun owners.

I would gladly allow NON lethal guns on campus, so long as the lethal gun laws get tougher. Its a compromise. A non lethal gun can protect someone the same as a lethal one, incompasitation.

Thats all us gun bashers want, we want NON lethal protection to be the future of weapons. We are not talking a BEBE gun, we are talking non lethal guns that knock you out, but dont kill you.

In what way should gun laws get tougher?

The fact is, it isn't the gun laws that failed here ... it's secular progressive political correctness that did. IF people hadn't been so worried about offending someone else by calling him "crazy" or whatever term you wish to use, the complaints against him would have been pushed through, and he had been thoroughly evaluated psychologically and found to be jacked up, he'd have a judgement against him that would have shown on his background check disqualifying him from purchasing the firearms.

This guy didn't pop out of nowhere. His roommates knew he loony. His counselors had to remove him from class for taking pictures under desks? I mean, WTF is THAT? At one level it was decided to not get involved, and at the professional level it was dropped because nobody wanted to go through the paperwork.

As far as gun laws themselves go, this is a PERFECT example of what happens when you disarm the public. The only person who had a firearm was the criminal. And contrary to this incident, most criminals do not posess legally obtained firearms.

Disarming the public is handing criminals a gift on a silver platter.

 

[Vintij]

In what way should gun laws get tougher?

The fact is, it isn't the gun laws that failed here ... it's secular progressive political correctness that did. IF people hadn't been so worried about offending someone else by calling him "crazy" or whatever term you wish to use, the complaints against him would have been pushed through, and he had been thoroughly evaluated psychologically and found to be jacked up, he'd have a judgement against him that would have shown on his background check disqualifying him from purchasing the firearms.

This guy didn't pop out of nowhere. His roommates knew he loony. His counselors had to remove him from class for taking pictures under desks? I mean, WTF is THAT? At one level it was decided to not get involved, and at the professional level it was dropped because nobody wanted to go through the paperwork.

As far as gun laws themselves go, this is a PERFECT example of what happens when you disarm the public. The only person who had a firearm was the criminal. And contrary to this incident, most criminals do not posess legally obtained firearms.

Disarming the public is handing criminals a gift on a silver platter.

I am not against disarming them, I am for arming them with NON lethal weapons. This will greatly reduce the chance of accidental death and it would make everyone happy.

I agree with you on the warning signs. Everyone and there moms knew this guy had issues, they went to the authorities and they did nothing. What was the excuse? He was not a threat and did not act violently. Okay great, one mistake....its ok, so now what. Allow him to attend VT as if nothing ever happend? He stalked women, lit a dorm room on fire, was institutionalized and was still walking into classrooms with normal people! This campus really owes an appology to the familys of the students who were killed. I really believe they could have prevented this by kicking cho sung out, or at least closing campus while this guy was out mailing his manifesto to NBC. Its like cho knew they would fail to secure the campus, otherwise he would not have left. VT administration and campus police owe everyone an appology. Instead they are blaming eachother. I see the police chief saying "The VT administration gave the orders" then i see the president of VT saying "the campus police acted on the best evidence they had at the time".

Why is it the first reaction to cover up an incident? VT administration thought that the lawsuits were going to come piling in if the media found out about the first shootings, so what did they do? Allowed everyone to go to class and try to diminish the serious nature of the situation in fear of a huge media whiplash. The VT students are heros, but I will never allow my children to attend that poorly governed school. Someone needs to be fired, thats for sure.

 

[Bern80]

Great ideas gunny. Though I dont agree with some of it, at least a pro gun member is willing to compromise, I dont understand why its so hard to at least adress the gun issue and compromise with non gun owners.

I would gladly allow NON lethal guns on campus, so long as the lethal gun laws get tougher. Its a compromise. A non lethal gun can protect someone the same as a lethal one, incompasitation.

Thats all us gun bashers want, we want NON lethal protection to be the future of weapons. We are not talking a BEBE gun, we are talking non lethal guns that knock you out, but dont kill you.

Our (pro gun people) objection is again you think the problem is an inanimate object. There is absolutly nothing to fear from an inanimate object thus why the need for some non-lethal form of protection.

Which brings up another point. this country does not operate on the basis of need nor should any gov't be in the business of banning something because a group feels there is no need for it. If I want a gun for nothing more than my own personl amusement and I'm not hurting anyone what gives you the right to not allow me that?

 

[Vintij]

Our (pro gun people) objection is again you think the problem is an inanimate object. There is absolutly nothing to fear from an inanimate object thus why the need for some non-lethal form of protection.

Which brings up another point. this country does not operate on the basis of need nor should any gov't be in the business of banning something because a group feels there is no need for it. If I want a gun for nothing more than my own personl amusement and I'm not hurting anyone what gives you the right to not allow me that?

Nobody is taking that right away from you. Once again, I said....that right is taken away from students on campus not you. I proposed non lethal weapons into the mix with students to protect themselves.

I dont care who has a gun, as long as his background and mental health was checked. Along with his medication and training. That is hardly taking away your right, its more like keeping you safe.

I dont care if i get patted down 30 times to get on a plane, nobody is taking away my right to ride a plane are they? They are just making it secure for everyone. Same exact consept with guns. Nobody is taking away your right to carry a gun, they are trying to make it more secure for everyone.

 

[Bern80]

Nobody is taking that right away from you. Once again, I said....that right is taken away from students on campus not you. I proposed non lethal weapons into the mix with students to protect themselves.

I dont care who has a gun, as long as his background and mental health was checked. Along with his medication and training. That is hardly taking away your right, its more like keeping you safe.

So you claim, but that doesn't jive with these two previous statements you made:

Answer me this, would you all agree to allow anyone to carry a NON lethal weapon at all times, like a special gun the will cause alot of pain but will not kill anyone? Why not that? Would you agree to leave your guns untouched until hunting season, and use this special gun instead?

Thats all us gun bashers want, we want NON lethal protection to be the future of weapons. We are not talking a BEBE gun, we are talking non lethal guns that knock you out, but dont kill you.

Both of those statements sound very much as though you do want to eliminate guns from society and heavily restict when and where people can use them.

 

[Gunny]

I am not against disarming them, I am for arming them with NON lethal weapons. This will greatly reduce the chance of accidental death and it would make everyone happy.

I agree with you on the warning signs. Everyone and there moms knew this guy had issues, they went to the authorities and they did nothing. What was the excuse? He was not a threat and did not act violently. Okay great, one mistake....its ok, so now what. Allow him to attend VT as if nothing ever happend? He stalked women, lit a dorm room on fire, was institutionalized and was still walking into classrooms with normal people! This campus really owes an appology to the familys of the students who were killed. I really believe they could have prevented this by kicking cho sung out, or at least closing campus while this guy was out mailing his manifesto to NBC. Its like cho knew they would fail to secure the campus, otherwise he would not have left. VT administration and campus police owe everyone an appology. Instead they are blaming eachother. I see the police chief saying "The VT administration gave the orders" then i see the president of VT saying "the campus police acted on the best evidence they had at the time".

Why is it the first reaction to cover up an incident? VT administration thought that the lawsuits were going to come piling in if the media found out about the first shootings, so what did they do? Allowed everyone to go to class and try to diminish the serious nature of the situation in fear of a huge media whiplash. The VT students are heros, but I will never allow my children to attend that poorly governed school. Someone needs to be fired, thats for sure.

While I agree VT deserves to carry some of the blame, it's hard to place all the blame on a university in a backwater town for not preparing for something that never happened before.

The police are hardly to blame for having to start with two dead bodies, a campus full of suspects, and no leads.

The political correctness that creates out societal complacency and unwillingness to confront something and call it what it is for fear of being labelled is as much or more to blame than anything else, IMO. It created the environment that allowed this obvious fruitloop to exist not unnoticed but ignored within normal society.

If you want to talk gun laws, I disagree with anyone who is not at a minimum a naturalized US citizen being allowed to purchase and/or posess a firearm. They can't vote -- they don't need a gun.

IMO, all of those factors led to the eventual tragic ending, and no factor is solely to blame.

 

[Annie]

I am not against disarming them, I am for arming them with NON lethal weapons. This will greatly reduce the chance of accidental death and it would make everyone happy.

I agree with you on the warning signs. Everyone and there moms knew this guy had issues, they went to the authorities and they did nothing. What was the excuse? He was not a threat and did not act violently. Okay great, one mistake....its ok, so now what. Allow him to attend VT as if nothing ever happend? He stalked women, lit a dorm room on fire, was institutionalized and was still walking into classrooms with normal people! This campus really owes an appology to the familys of the students who were killed. I really believe they could have prevented this by kicking cho sung out, or at least closing campus while this guy was out mailing his manifesto to NBC. Its like cho knew they would fail to secure the campus, otherwise he would not have left. VT administration and campus police owe everyone an appology. Instead they are blaming eachother. I see the police chief saying "The VT administration gave the orders" then i see the president of VT saying "the campus police acted on the best evidence they had at the time".

Why is it the first reaction to cover up an incident? VT administration thought that the lawsuits were going to come piling in if the media found out about the first shootings, so what did they do? Allowed everyone to go to class and try to diminish the serious nature of the situation in fear of a huge media whiplash. The VT students are heros, but I will never allow my children to attend that poorly governed school. Someone needs to be fired, thats for sure.

Sorry, you are losing what has happened about family members and institutions regarding the mentally ill in the past 45 years or so. Why are there so many homeless? Why don't they take their meds? Family and institutions, including the police have lost the case to force it. Do you have any idea on how hard it is to involuntarily commit someone?

 

[hjmick]

Do you have any idea on how hard it is to involuntarily commit someone?

Sadly I do.

 

[Annie]

Sadly I do.

Yep, we tried for over two years with my now deceased ex-mother-in-law, no way. She was anorexic, agoraphobic, suicidal, and homocidal. Until she plunged a dinner fork into her husband, while he slept, couldn't be done. Even then, it was only 72 hours. Long enough to get her started on meds, then she wanted out.

 

[hjmick]

Yep, we tried for over two years with my now deceased ex-mother-in-law, no way. She was anorexic, agoraphobic, suicidal, and homocidal. Until she plunged a dinner fork into her husband, while he slept, couldn't be done. Even then, it was only 72 hours. Long enough to get her started on meds, then she wanted out.

I feel you. Mine's my 24 year old step daughter. The mental health care system in this country sucks. But that's another thread.

 

[Annie]

I feel you. Mine's my 24 year old step daughter. The mental health care system in this country sucks. But that's another thread.

The state laws regarding institutionalizing are what suck. Causes lots of heartbreak and stress on families.

 

[Ninja]

I am neither a Democrat, nor a liberal, and I completely agree with statement you quoted.

It is OUR repsonsibility as adult members of our society to ensure our children are educated in a safe environment. Turning college campuses in Dodge City is NOT the answer.

One moron, who turned out to be pretty-much the psycho from Hell chose to not obey the handgun ban. How far should we overreact to one psycho?

IMO, security was inadequate. Identifying this guy as a nutjob when he clearly has been giving every indication of being one for a couple of years got lost in the politically correct wussiness of not wanting to offend him.

Had the counsleor's reports been taken ONE step further, he'd have had a "cukoo" judgement against him and would have popped on the background check.

Video surveillance on all entrances/exits and in all common areas and someone monitoring them at a central location would have identified him immediately after killing the first two people, and police could have reacted to THAT, instead of having to start at trying to figure out who he was.

I have no political allegiances so prefacing your post with "I'm not a Democrat" means nothing to me.

Only in a country as pussified and as dumbed down as ours would college students be considered "children".

Allowing CCW permit holders to carry on campus hardly constitutes "turning college campuses into Dodge City". Great hyperbole though, really top notch.

"Security was inadequate". LOL. To say the least. Had the counselors done this, had security done that, had the police not stood around with their AR-15s like a bunch of sissies for their extended photo-op, yadda yadda yadda. Ever stand in line at the registrar's office at a large university? If not, think of a place 10 times worse than the DMV... And you want to make these people responsible for campus safety?

I can't tell you how angry the idea of career bureaucrats, with their stupid little sinecures and PhDs in worthless fields like organizational leadership and communications and sociology, passing feel-good P.C. rules at secret meetings that have no legal relevence (since carrying on campus at VT isn't a prosecutable offense, but it might get you expelled) makes me. I don't think we poor defenseless young 'uns can afford to have you grownups making sure we're educated in a safe environment any longer. We saw what that can lead to last monday.

 

[Annie]

I have no political allegiances so prefacing your post with "I'm not a Democrat" means nothing to me.

Only in a country as pussified and as dumbed down as ours would college students be considered "children".

Allowing CCW permit holders to carry on campus hardly constitutes "turning college campuses into Dodge City". Great hyperbole though, really top notch.

"Security was inadequate". LOL. To say the least. Had the counselors done this, had security done that, had the police not stood around with their AR-15s like a bunch of sissies for their extended photo-op, yadda yadda yadda. Ever stand in line at the registrar's office at a large university? If not, think of a place 10 times worse than the DMV... And you want to make these people responsible for campus safety?

I can't tell you how angry the idea of career bureaucrats, with their stupid little sinecures and PhDs in worthless fields like organizational leadership and communications and sociology, passing feel-good P.C. rules at secret meetings that have no legal relevence (since carrying on campus at VT isn't a prosecutable offense, but it might get you expelled) makes me. I don't think we poor defenseless young 'uns can afford to have you grownups making sure we're educated in a safe environment any longer. We saw what that can lead to last monday.

It's rare that I disagree with Gunny, but in this case I'm with you. The idea that somehow we could keep 'gun free zones' and hope the police arrive and break chains before innocents are killed, even with warning of a double homocide on the campus, seems a bit much.

 

[Ninja]

Gunny's a good guy, perhaps I was a bit too vehement in that last post. I think he and I just have an honest difference of opinion.

 

[Gunny]

I have no political allegiances so prefacing your post with "I'm not a Democrat" means nothing to me.

When you prefaced the comment I responded to with one would have to be a "DemoKKKrat" ... then YOU made it mean something.

Only in a country as pussified and as dumbed down as ours would college students be considered "children".

Well, you opinion certainly refutes reality. If it is your opinion it should be otherwise, I agree, but that isn't how it is.

Allowing CCW permit holders to carry on campus hardly constitutes "turning college campuses into Dodge City". Great hyperbole though, really top notch.

Apparently you have never been in a really tight location with a bunch of 20-years-olds running around with firearms. I've got 20 years experience at it. And based on that experience, I believe your opinion to be incorrect.

"Security was inadequate". LOL. To say the least. Had the counselors done this, had security done that, had the police not stood around with their AR-15s like a bunch of sissies for their extended photo-op, yadda yadda yadda. Ever stand in line at the registrar's office at a large university? If not, think of a place 10 times worse than the DMV... And you want to make these people responsible for campus safety?

You're doing a Hell of a job of ridiculing real problems that need to be addressed and offering ZERO alternatives.

I can't tell you how angry the idea of career bureaucrats, with their stupid little sinecures and PhDs in worthless fields like organizational leadership and communications and sociology, passing feel-good P.C. rules at secret meetings that have no legal relevence (since carrying on campus at VT isn't a prosecutable offense, but it might get you expelled) makes me. I don't think we poor defenseless young 'uns can afford to have you grownups making sure we're educated in a safe environment any longer. We saw what that can lead to last monday.

No, what you "young 'un's" REALLY need is us "grownups" to backhand you in the mouth for opening your flaps in a disrespectful manner to people who haven't been disrespectful to you.

You can't even respect an opinion that opposes yours, much less posess the maturity to walk around with a loaded weapon that DEMANDS respect from its user.

 

[Gunny]

It's rare that I disagree with Gunny, but in this case I'm with you. The idea that somehow we could keep 'gun free zones' and hope the police arrive and break chains before innocents are killed, even with warning of a double homocide on the campus, seems a bit much.

It is a bit much to also expect college-aged people to have the maturity and wherewithall to use a firearm in a panic situation.