Should sex offenders be absolved from public stigma?

[George Costanza]

however.... i do not believe that pedophilia is no more a mental illness then homosexuality. That may be a hard thing for many to come to grips and terms with though. It is a sexual preference...[/COLOR]

I think you meant to say that you do not believe that pedophilia is any more a mental illness than homosexuality.

While it is true that neither pedophilia nor homosexuality are forms of mental illness, it does not necessarily follow that either of them are matters of choice or preference, rather than compulsion. In spite of your opinion on this subject, I think that the better thinking in today's scientific world is that both homosexuality and pedophilia are genetically formed, rather than matters of free choice.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm most referring to those who suffer from pedophelia (yes its a diagnosable paychiatric disorder) those who have done both group and personal therapy who have done away (or presumably so) with their sexual interest in prepubescent children.

My question is twofold:

1) Can someone who suffers from this condition find "absolution" from society

2) If not, how can someone who is a pedophile, recover if they are constantly bombarded with the reminder of their sins?

What evidence do you have that pedophilia is any different than homosexuality? If one can be cured, why not the other?

For one, pedophilia is a diagnosable disorder in the DSM-IV TR

"A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

B. The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old."

Whereas us psychologist do not classify homosexuality which is an unchanged sexual orientation much like heterosexuality to not be a diagnosable disorder. In fact to even compare homosexuality to pedophilia would be an insult to homosexuals.

The APA (American Psychological Association) is clear on this issue:

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

"No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder."

What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

"All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his same-sex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to self-determination; be sensitive to the client’s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors."

See:Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

Nice try Quantum, but you fail again...as usual

Pedophilia and homosexuality were both listed in the DSM II until political pressure made it inadvisable to continue listing homosexuality as a disorder. That pressure resulted in them dropping it in DSM III. Any informed person would know that, and not try to pretend that the lack of a change in one is proof of anything other than a lack political pressure.

Want to try again and provide objective scientific data to show a difference?

 

[koshergrl]

"Because people with pedophilic urges tend to be attracted to children of a particular gender, they are sometimes described in the literature as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual pedophiles. Roughly 9% to 40% of pedophiles are homosexual in their orientation toward children "


Pessimism About Pedophilia - Harvard Health Publications

 

[koshergrl]

"
When confronted about sexual abuse, convicted pedophiles often rationalize their actions, such as insisting that a victimized child acted seductively or enjoyed the encounter. These rationalizations may reflect an inability to empathize with the child, which could be part of a co-occurring antisocial or narcissistic personality disorder."

This is interesting:

"Some researchers fear that the growth of Internet communities for people with pedophilic tendencies may encourage users to act on their sexual urges and share information about how to elude detection. But other commentators note that these online communities actually make it easier for law enforcement officials to lure and entrap potential offenders before they commit a sexual crime."


Pessimism About Pedophilia - Harvard Health Publications

 

[George Costanza]

why are you sympathetic to them?

or are you just trolling for a response?

One can advocate fair treatment for those accused/convicted of sex crimes, without being "sympathetic" to them. I defend people charged with horrible crimes all the time. Am I "sympathetic" to them? No - not in the sense that I approve of what they did. But I am sympathetic to their treatment by the criminal justice system. That's my sworn job.

You know that.

 

[syrenn]

however.... i do not believe that pedophilia is no more a mental illness then homosexuality. That may be a hard thing for many to come to grips and terms with though. It is a sexual preference...[/COLOR]

I think you meant to say that you do not believe that pedophilia is any more a mental illness than homosexuality.

While it is true that neither pedophilia nor homosexuality are forms of mental illness, it does not necessarily follow that either of them are matters of choice or preference, rather than compulsion. In spite of your opinion on this subject, I think that the better thinking in today's scientific world is that both homosexuality and pedophilia are genetically formed, rather than matters of free choice.

yes, thank you for the correction. That IS how i meant it to come out.


Agree.... and if that is so.... then you cant play this card both ways.... either they are all something you cannot choose...and NOT an mental illness.... or it IS something you choose and is a mental illness.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

however.... i do not believe that pedophilia is no more a mental illness then homosexuality. That may be a hard thing for many to come to grips and terms with though. It is a sexual preference...[/COLOR]

I think you meant to say that you do not believe that pedophilia is any more a mental illness than homosexuality.

While it is true that neither pedophilia nor homosexuality are forms of mental illness, it does not necessarily follow that either of them are matters of choice or preference, rather than compulsion. In spite of your opinion on this subject, I think that the better thinking in today's scientific world is that both homosexuality and pedophilia are genetically formed, rather than matters of free choice.

I prefer to believe that they are both choice, but it, ultimately, means the same thing. Either you can chose, or you can't. It makes no sense to argue that adult homosexuals and heterosexuals cannot choose, then argue that adult pedophiles are free to choose.

 

[Againsheila]

I'm most referring to those who suffer from pedophelia (yes its a diagnosable paychiatric disorder) those who have done both group and personal therapy who have done away (or presumably so) with their sexual interest in prepubescent children.

My question is twofold:

1) Can someone who suffers from this condition find "absolution" from society

2) If not, how can someone who is a pedophile, recover if they are constantly bombarded with the reminder of their sins?

As far as I know, it's a disease and there is no cure, as long as there is no cure, we need the stigma, we need the registry, we need to know where these people are so we can protect our children.

However, I do not believe taking pictures of your babies in their bathwater, or running around the house naked is pedophilia. If they are going to have a stigma for a crime, make sure it's a real crime.

 

[koshergrl]

"Men sexually attracted to young adolescent boys are the most persistent and prolific child molesters known to the criminal-justice system. Depending on how one defines molestation, they can easily have dozens if not hundreds of victims in a lifetime. They usually begin their activity when they are teenagers themselves and continue throughout their lives as long as they are physically able. "

AbuseWatch.NET

 

[Quantum Windbag]

why are you sympathetic to them?

or are you just trolling for a response?

One can advocate fair treatment for those accused/convicted of sex crimes, without being "sympathetic" to them. I defend people charged with horrible crimes all the time. Am I "sympathetic" to them? No - not in the sense that I approve of what they did. But I am sympathetic to their treatment by the criminal justice system. That's my sworn job.

You know that.

A thankless job that deserves a lot more money than you get.

 

[syrenn]

For one, pedophilia is a diagnosable disorder in the DSM-IV TR

"A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

B. The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old."

Whereas us psychologist do not classify homosexuality which is an unchanged sexual orientation much like heterosexuality to not be a diagnosable disorder. In fact to even compare homosexuality to pedophilia would be an insult to homosexuals.

The APA (American Psychological Association) is clear on this issue:

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

"No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder."

What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

"All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his same-sex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to self-determination; be sensitive to the client’s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors."

See:Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

Nice try Quantum, but you fail again...as usual

nice sidestep of a valid question.


pedophilia.. is no different then homosexuality in terms of ...who and what you are sexual attracted to being outside the social norm.

It just so happens what pedos are attracted to are children.....

I think you need to understand the difference between gynephelia and androphelia. The issue regarding homosexual pedophilia is complex. Pedophilia is not homosexuality. One is a sexual orientation, the other is not. Which is why concerning gynophelia and androphelia they implement scales. As I mentioned before homosexuality is not a diagnosable disorder nor is there enough research to conclude that there is a high incidence of homosexual pedophilia.

where do i say that homosexuals are pedophiles?


However...if a pedophile hunts its own sex exclusive...then that person is not only a pedo..but a gay pedo.

 

[koshergrl]

"Many pedophiles spend their entire lives attempting to convince themselves and others that they are not evil sexual perverts, but good guys who love and nurture children. That is a major reason why they do such things as join organizations where they can help troubled children and volunteer to search for missing children. Preferential offender’s have a driving need to rationalize and justify his behavior."

AbuseWatch.NET

 

[AVG-JOE]

I think you have it backwards: Just as recovering alcoholics admit that they are not "currently" drinking, pedophiles need to remember their addiction in order to keep it under control. That being said, the term "sex offender" is probably too broadly used in today's hypersensitive culture.

anyone who has ever learned anything about pedophilia knows that it is impossible for a pedophile to keep himself under control. recidivism is almost guaranteed if they aren't imprisoned or chemically castrated.

Anyone who has ever learned anything about humans knows that individuals can accomplish amazing things.

When they want something.

 

[Aristotle]

nice sidestep of a valid question.


pedophilia.. is no different then homosexuality in terms of ...who and what you are sexual attracted to being outside the social norm.

It just so happens what pedos are attracted to are children.....

I think you need to understand the difference between gynephelia and androphelia. The issue regarding homosexual pedophilia is complex. Pedophilia is not homosexuality. One is a sexual orientation, the other is not. Which is why concerning gynophelia and androphelia they implement scales. As I mentioned before homosexuality is not a diagnosable disorder nor is there enough research to conclude that there is a high incidence of homosexual pedophilia.

where do i say that homosexuals are pedophiles?


However...if a pedophile hunts its own sex exclusive...then that person is not only a pedo..but a gay pedo.

Because you made the assertion that pedophilia is no different than homosexuality which is comparing apples and oranges. As of yet, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. Although it invoves sexualized fantasy of prepubescent children there is no comparison between homosexuality and pedophilia. I believe when I gave Quantum that from the APA website it explained that already. If we are making that comparison upon sexual attraction based on who we desire.you can certainly make the case for heterosexuals but the matter here is the age of the tareget whom you're attracted to which is why in doing testing we have test for androphilia and gynophilia.

 

[Aristotle]

Totally agree with the above. It also leads to the issue of current laws usually lumping the pedophilles listed above with other forms of "sex offenders." You can get situations where a 19 year old having consensual sex with his 15 year old girlfriend is considered similar to a flasher, a rapist or the above mentioned pedophile.

There should be no issue with stigma in society for pedophiles, as they shouldnt be let back into society. As for rapists, well you get what you sow. If the thought of the stigma of being a rapist following you through life is to tough, then dont be a rapist.

Well in research majority of pedophiles have some sort of past history with sexual abuse, and physical abuse themselves. Their experiences creating a cyclic effect, eventually lands them in the situation they themselves were in. The stigma associated with being a sex offender in this case the pedophile does nothing for future preventative methods. I'm not saying their offense is excusable but I think society needs to be more educated in that the occurence of pedophilia is not spotaneous.

Is that the same research that makes the same claims about homosexuality? Did it ever occur to you that they might be lying? That, because they have been caught, they are looking for mitigating circumstances to lessen their sentences?

I just gave you a direct link from the APA webaite that clearly defines homosexuality to not be a disorder. You are telling me this organization that has done countless research and has been around for decades is wrong?

 

[Aristotle]

however.... i do not believe that pedophilia is no more a mental illness then homosexuality. That may be a hard thing for many to come to grips and terms with though. It is a sexual preference...[/COLOR]

I think you meant to say that you do not believe that pedophilia is any more a mental illness than homosexuality.

While it is true that neither pedophilia nor homosexuality are forms of mental illness, it does not necessarily follow that either of them are matters of choice or preference, rather than compulsion. In spite of your opinion on this subject, I think that the better thinking in today's scientific world is that both homosexuality and pedophilia are genetically formed, rather than matters of free choice.

I prefer to believe that they are both choice, but it, ultimately, means the same thing. Either you can chose, or you can't. It makes no sense to argue that adult homosexuals and heterosexuals cannot choose, then argue that adult pedophiles are free to choose.

Homosexuality is not a choice and neither is pedophilia. Where did you come up with this?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think you need to understand the difference between gynephelia and androphelia. The issue regarding homosexual pedophilia is complex. Pedophilia is not homosexuality. One is a sexual orientation, the other is not. Which is why concerning gynophelia and androphelia they implement scales. As I mentioned before homosexuality is not a diagnosable disorder nor is there enough research to conclude that there is a high incidence of homosexual pedophilia.

where do i say that homosexuals are pedophiles?


However...if a pedophile hunts its own sex exclusive...then that person is not only a pedo..but a gay pedo.

Because you made the assertion that pedophilia is no different than homosexuality which is comparing apples and oranges. As of yet, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. Although it invoves sexualized fantasy of prepubescent children there is no comparison between homosexuality and pedophilia. I believe when I gave Quantum that from the APA website it explained that already. If we are making that comparison upon sexual attraction based on who we desire.you can certainly make the case for heterosexuals but the matter here is the age of the tareget whom you're attracted to which is why in doing testing we have test for androphilia and gynophilia.

At the time the classification of pedophilia was written homosexuality was. There was no advance in scientific knowledge that led to the reclassification of homosexual behavior, what occurred was a seismic shift in the social landscape.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well in research majority of pedophiles have some sort of past history with sexual abuse, and physical abuse themselves. Their experiences creating a cyclic effect, eventually lands them in the situation they themselves were in. The stigma associated with being a sex offender in this case the pedophile does nothing for future preventative methods. I'm not saying their offense is excusable but I think society needs to be more educated in that the occurence of pedophilia is not spotaneous.

Is that the same research that makes the same claims about homosexuality? Did it ever occur to you that they might be lying? That, because they have been caught, they are looking for mitigating circumstances to lessen their sentences?

I just gave you a direct link from the APA webaite that clearly defines homosexuality to not be a disorder. You are telling me this organization that has done countless research and has been around for decades is wrong?

And I pointed out why that decision was made. Feel free to show me the actual science behind the change of opinion, if you can find it.

 

[syrenn]

I think you need to understand the difference between gynephelia and androphelia. The issue regarding homosexual pedophilia is complex. Pedophilia is not homosexuality. One is a sexual orientation, the other is not. Which is why concerning gynophelia and androphelia they implement scales. As I mentioned before homosexuality is not a diagnosable disorder nor is there enough research to conclude that there is a high incidence of homosexual pedophilia.

where do i say that homosexuals are pedophiles?


However...if a pedophile hunts its own sex exclusive...then that person is not only a pedo..but a gay pedo.

Because you made the assertion that pedophilia is no different than homosexuality which is comparing apples and oranges. As of yet, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. Although it invoves sexualized fantasy of prepubescent children there is no comparison between homosexuality and pedophilia. I believe when I gave Quantum that from the APA website it explained that already. If we are making that comparison upon sexual attraction based on who we desire.you can certainly make the case for heterosexuals but the matter here is the age of the tareget whom you're attracted to which is why in doing testing we have test for androphilia and gynophilia.

i assume you are able to read. I put a specific rider on my comparison.

pedophilia.. is no different then homosexuality in terms of ...who and what you are sexually attracted to being outside the social norm.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think you meant to say that you do not believe that pedophilia is any more a mental illness than homosexuality.

While it is true that neither pedophilia nor homosexuality are forms of mental illness, it does not necessarily follow that either of them are matters of choice or preference, rather than compulsion. In spite of your opinion on this subject, I think that the better thinking in today's scientific world is that both homosexuality and pedophilia are genetically formed, rather than matters of free choice.

I prefer to believe that they are both choice, but it, ultimately, means the same thing. Either you can chose, or you can't. It makes no sense to argue that adult homosexuals and heterosexuals cannot choose, then argue that adult pedophiles are free to choose.

Homosexuality is not a choice and neither is pedophilia. Where did you come up with this?

If it is not a choice what is it? Twin studies have conclusively proved it is not genetic, if it was identical twins would always be either homosexual or straight. These studies also discount the argument that hormonal changes during pregnancy cause homosexuality, it also makes the argument that environmental factors are the primary drivers of sexual orientation.

Schacter, Daniel L., Gilbert, Daniel T., and Wegner, Daniel M. (2009) "Psychology". Worth Publishers: 435.

Your problem is you already know the answer, so you aren't looking for the information that contradicts you. That alone proves to me you are not actually a researcher, researchers don't approach a problem with the intent of proving they are right, they try to find the real answer.

I have seen no overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is anything but a choice, feel free to prove me wrong by sighting every single discredited study you can find, I will be happy to refute any of them with real world exceptions.

The universe is not deterministic.