Should Government/Public Unions Be Abolished?

[Amelia]

In general, public unions are a conflict of interest. The employers, i.e., "we the people", are represented at the bargaining table by politicians who fear what will happen if they say 'no'. Politicians who seem not to care about how much of "we the people's" money they are giving away. They can always tax "we the people" more. Plus, the unions will pay them in many ways if they say "yes".

However, cops and firefighters - the people who risk their lives to serve - need the kind of protection unions provide, at least to protect them from politicians who would use them as scapegoats when risky situations have bad outcomes.

What about Prison guards? Mental Health/Mental Retardation workers? How about highway workers, who in the state of Pennsylvania...have a higher death rate than the State Police?

First question: Are the highway workers unionized now?

 

[kwc57]

Yep... that's the spirit... let's extend the same policies that killed the working people in the private sector, into the Public sector. Brilliant... then we can bottom line teachers, Cops, firefighters and prison guards just like the big corporations do.

Pay scum wages and scum will apply.

The more I read of your posts, the more I'm beginning to think that you don't have a job. Why? Because your concept of working people in the private sector is completely skewed from reality. The things you say are mere talking points.

Hey... call me a Commie while you're at it. My concept of working people in the Private Sector is the same as my knowledge of the Public sector. That we are all working to raise families. My beef is not with the working and Middle Class. It's with the power brokers who want to kill jobs, wages and benefits so they can profit more.

You realize how silly that notion is? It's like cutting your nose off to spite your face. "Power brokers" want to maximize effiecency and cut costs to make as much profit as possible. Companies exist to turn a profit for the owner or shareholders. In order to do that, they have to have employees they pay wages and benefits to. If they kill all of that, they kill their company and make no profit. You work under the mistaken idea that a company exists to provide jobs. They do not. One can't exist without the other, but they can sure haggle over the price of doing business.

 

[Bern80]

Yep... that's the spirit... let's extend the same policies that killed the working people in the private sector, into the Public sector. Brilliant... then we can bottom line teachers, Cops, firefighters and prison guards just like the big corporations do.

Pay scum wages and scum will apply.

Well except that not having unions didn't kill employees in the private sector.

 

[Bern80]

Unions as a concept I don't have a problem with. As I said in another thread, people certainly have the right to organize and if you can get enough people together such that you can dictate to a particular employer better compensation, go for it.

Unfortunately that isn't how unions work at all today. You have people like Steelplate-in-the-head up here who don't want an even playing field when it comes to employers and employees negotiating compensation. He first incorrectly perceives that it is horribly skewed in the employers favor and wants to horribly skew in the employees favor. Like I said above, if you want to organize, go for it. But if you really want the playing field to be level you better make darn sure you have the leverage. You have the right to organize. You do NOT have the right to prevent that same employer from hiring people who are perfectly willing to work for less. You also better have enough business sense to now that whatever it is you demand needs to still allow the employer to be profitable otherwise your demands are going to be rather short lived. Of course it's too much to expect that parasites like steelplate here have the kind of foresight or integerity.

It's really ironic that steel complains about evil corporate america when that's the group that todays unions are a part of. A union is a business like any other business. They have middle managers and CEOs like any other business and those union heads are rolling in money, just like CEOs of other companies. Unions today exist to protect the lowest common denominators of the labor force. Those of us with skills that the labor market actually values have no need for unions. Our skills are valuable enough that we are compensated quite well for them. People like Steeleplate can't make that connection. He thinks he's owed something by the rest of society and shouldn't have to figure out how to earn a living wage like everyone else. People like YOU are the problem with society today Steel. Not us.

 

[kaz]

the 1st amendment may protect the right to form a union.

The question is not whether the employees can band together, it's whether government has to negotiate with them collectively. The first Amendment certainly does not force government to collectively negotiate with a union.

 

[Steelplate]

In general, public unions are a conflict of interest. The employers, i.e., "we the people", are represented at the bargaining table by politicians who fear what will happen if they say 'no'. Politicians who seem not to care about how much of "we the people's" money they are giving away. They can always tax "we the people" more. Plus, the unions will pay them in many ways if they say "yes".

However, cops and firefighters - the people who risk their lives to serve - need the kind of protection unions provide, at least to protect them from politicians who would use them as scapegoats when risky situations have bad outcomes.

What about Prison guards? Mental Health/Mental Retardation workers? How about highway workers, who in the state of Pennsylvania...have a higher death rate than the State Police?

First question: Are the highway workers unionized now?

They always were... AFSCME.

 

[Steelplate]

Yep... that's the spirit... let's extend the same policies that killed the working people in the private sector, into the Public sector. Brilliant... then we can bottom line teachers, Cops, firefighters and prison guards just like the big corporations do.

Pay scum wages and scum will apply.

Well except that not having unions didn't kill employees in the private sector.

Really? I guess I just imagined all the mass layoffs, Job outsourcing and the like. Go back to the 80's with Reagan and work your way up to the present day and tell me that union busting hasn't killed employees in the Private Sector. You do realize that at one time... In my lifetime even(I'm 46), that Private Companies used to have Pensions?... not 401K's but actual pensions.

 

[Steelplate]

The more I read of your posts, the more I'm beginning to think that you don't have a job. Why? Because your concept of working people in the private sector is completely skewed from reality. The things you say are mere talking points.

Hey... call me a Commie while you're at it. My concept of working people in the Private Sector is the same as my knowledge of the Public sector. That we are all working to raise families. My beef is not with the working and Middle Class. It's with the power brokers who want to kill jobs, wages and benefits so they can profit more.

You realize how silly that notion is? It's like cutting your nose off to spite your face. "Power brokers" want to maximize effiecency and cut costs to make as much profit as possible. Companies exist to turn a profit for the owner or shareholders. In order to do that, they have to have employees they pay wages and benefits to. If they kill all of that, they kill their company and make no profit. You work under the mistaken idea that a company exists to provide jobs. They do not. One can't exist without the other, but they can sure haggle over the price of doing business.

Exactly... which is where organized labor comes into play. Haggling over the price of doing business. BTW..... it's pretty obvious when you look at the statistics that almost all Corporations are raking it in at a record pace and the employees are suffering as a result... but that's OK... that's what they do... expect more out of their employees for less.

 

[Bern80]

Really? I guess I just imagined all the mass layoffs, Job outsourcing and the like. Go back to the 80's with Reagan and work your way up to the present day and tell me that union busting hasn't killed employees in the Private Sector. You do realize that at one time... In my lifetime even(I'm 46), that Private Companies used to have Pensions?... not 401K's but actual pensions.

Why exactly does any business owe you a salary for NOT working for them? You are exhibit A of the problem. An entitled leech who thinks someone else owes them a standard of living.

 

[JoeB131]

Just because you're too much of a pussy to fight for yourself, doesn't mean the rest of us have to be that way..... but I know that's a concept that you Conservatives don't quite understand.

If I'm not wanted somewhere, I don't want to be there.

I would have to seriously wonder what kind of fugnut would want to stay at a job just to piss off a boss by not being firable.

I guess the kind that wouldn't want to show his value to an organization to start with, I suppose.

 

[Steelplate]

Unions as a concept I don't have a problem with. As I said in another thread, people certainly have the right to organize and if you can get enough people together such that you can dictate to a particular employer better compensation, go for it.

Unfortunately that isn't how unions work at all today. You have people like Steelplate-in-the-head up here who don't want an even playing field when it comes to employers and employees negotiating compensation. He first incorrectly perceives that it is horribly skewed in the employers favor and wants to horribly skew in the employees favor. Like I said above, if you want to organize, go for it. But if you really want the playing field to be level you better make darn sure you have the leverage. You have the right to organize. You do NOT have the right to prevent that same employer from hiring people who are perfectly willing to work for less. You also better have enough business sense to now that whatever it is you demand needs to still allow the employer to be profitable otherwise your demands are going to be rather short lived. Of course it's too much to expect that parasites like steelplate here have the kind of foresight or integerity.

It's really ironic that steel complains about evil corporate america when that's the group that todays unions are a part of. A union is a business like any other business. They have middle managers and CEOs like any other business and those union heads are rolling in money, just like CEOs of other companies. Unions today exist to protect the lowest common denominators of the labor force. Those of us with skills that the labor market actually values have no need for unions. Our skills are valuable enough that we are compensated quite well for them. People like Steeleplate can't make that connection. He thinks he's owed something by the rest of society and shouldn't have to figure out how to earn a living wage like everyone else. People like YOU are the problem with society today Steel. Not us.

Fuck you... Profits have been going steadily up for Big Corps and wages have been damn near stagnant for 30years for their employees. Don't sit here and tell me how the poor little rich boys have it so fuckin' rough.

Who said I was owed anything? Oh.. that's right... you, you asshole. But not being "owed" anything and doing our jobs well isn't enough for you dickheads, is it? No... you want to burn the fuckin' place down and put us in the unemployment line. Excuse me if I fight for my, and my co-workers' existence.

EDIT: Negotiating in good faith IS a level playing field, BTW.

 

[JoeB131]

Never said he didn't like his job... he said he didn't like his boss. You see, there is this thing called a "GRIEVANCE" that Unionized employees have when a dickhead of a boss is harassing you. Filing a GRIEVANCE against your boss is the equivalent of fighting back...not just accepting your fate and running away with your tail between your legs.

Or you can just say, "Do I want to spend the next four years looking at this moron trying to put off his incompetence on me?"

Frankly, I've heard about the "greivence" system. It usually means managers are afraid to manage. When I was in the service, we had these union mechanics who did our maintenance for us. When the CO wanted to get better performance out of them, they filed complaints.

Wasn't being a dickhead, he just wanted them to do their fucking jobs.

 

[Steelplate]

Never said he didn't like his job... he said he didn't like his boss. You see, there is this thing called a "GRIEVANCE" that Unionized employees have when a dickhead of a boss is harassing you. Filing a GRIEVANCE against your boss is the equivalent of fighting back...not just accepting your fate and running away with your tail between your legs.

Or you can just say, "Do I want to spend the next four years looking at this moron trying to put off his incompetence on me?"

Frankly, I've heard about the "greivence" system. It usually means managers are afraid to manage. When I was in the service, we had these union mechanics who did our maintenance for us. When the CO wanted to get better performance out of them, they filed complaints.

Wasn't being a dickhead, he just wanted them to do their fucking jobs.

What happened with those Complaints? If they were legitimate complaints...then the boss should be told about it. If it were just bullshit... then the Mechanics should have been disciplined. At my place of Employ... the Union and Management both don't take kindly to harassment from either side.

 

[FireFly]

Public Unions extort money from us ordinary private citizens. They already get paid double what we make & they always want even more + guranteed investments, pensions & retirements.

 

[Steelplate]

Public Unions extort money from us ordinary private citizens. They already get paid double what we make & they always want even more + guranteed investments, pensions & retirements.

Liar.

 

[JoeB131]

What happened with those Complaints? If they were legitimate complaints...then the boss should be told about it. If it were just bullshit... then the Mechanics should have been disciplined. At my place of Employ... the Union and Management both don't take kindly to harassment from either side.

Well, eventually, he got fed up and transferred to another unit. One of these dirtbags got fired for selling drugs, another got fired for stealing tools. After that, I completed my term of service and simply no longer cared.

No, it wasn't bullshit. These guys were worthless. Whenever I had to take equipment down to their shop, I usually blotted out my whole day for doing work that shouldn't have taken more than an hour.

Thing is, I grew up in a union household. So, yeah, I see the need for unions in some cases. But Unions are really their own worst enemies right now, especially the Government Unions, which even FDR thought was a bad idea.

 

[Amelia]

What about Prison guards? Mental Health/Mental Retardation workers? How about highway workers, who in the state of Pennsylvania...have a higher death rate than the State Police?

First question: Are the highway workers unionized now?

They always were... AFSCME.

That's what I thought. So it looks like the unions aren't doing a bang up job protecting the lives of their membership.


Worker safety shouldn't be a union thing anyway. Once upon a time, a long time ago, the unions did a service in helping bring about safer conditions for workers.

Now safety provisions are codified. If highway workers are dying, then there needs to be better law enforcement. Highway workers don't need the kind of advocacy which police need to cover them when they make life and death decisions. It's a different need, with a different solution -- one which apparently hasn't been achieved by union leadership.

 

[Steelplate]

What happened with those Complaints? If they were legitimate complaints...then the boss should be told about it. If it were just bullshit... then the Mechanics should have been disciplined. At my place of Employ... the Union and Management both don't take kindly to harassment from either side.

Well, eventually, he got fed up and transferred to another unit. One of these dirtbags got fired for selling drugs, another got fired for stealing tools. After that, I completed my term of service and simply no longer cared.

No, it wasn't bullshit. These guys were worthless. Whenever I had to take equipment down to their shop, I usually blotted out my whole day for doing work that shouldn't have taken more than an hour.

Thing is, I grew up in a union household. So, yeah, I see the need for unions in some cases. But Unions are really their own worst enemies right now, especially the Government Unions, which even FDR thought was a bad idea.

I hate fuckers like that... They give good, honest, hard working employees a bad name. But you have to understand that for every one employee like that, there are probably 20 that bust their asses and care to make sure that the taxpayer is getting everything they paid for....after all... We are taxpayers too. We don't want our money wasted either.

 

[Steelplate]

First question: Are the highway workers unionized now?

They always were... AFSCME.

That's what I thought. So it looks like the unions aren't doing a bang up job protecting the lives of their membership.


Worker safety shouldn't be a union thing anyway. Once upon a time, a long time ago, the unions did a service in helping bring about safer conditions for workers.

Now safety provisions are codified. If highway workers are dying, then there needs to be better law enforcement. Highway workers don't need the kind of advocacy which police need to cover them when they make life and death decisions. It's a different need, with a different solution -- one which apparently hasn't been achieved by union leadership.

Tell that to the crazy asshole drivers out there that don't heed the law. The Union has nothing to do with it. They can't control how motorists behave... typical right wing bullshit.

 

[Amelia]

They always were... AFSCME.

That's what I thought. So it looks like the unions aren't doing a bang up job protecting the lives of their membership.


Worker safety shouldn't be a union thing anyway. Once upon a time, a long time ago, the unions did a service in helping bring about safer conditions for workers.

Now safety provisions are codified. If highway workers are dying, then there needs to be better law enforcement. Highway workers don't need the kind of advocacy which police need to cover them when they make life and death decisions. It's a different need, with a different solution -- one which apparently hasn't been achieved by union leadership.

Tell that to the crazy asshole drivers out there that don't heed the law. The Union has nothing to do with it. They can't control how motorists behave... typical right wing bullshit.

EX ACT LY !

The union has nothing to do with it. Why did you bring highway worker safety up in response to my comment?

It's a law enforcement issue!

People need to know that Pennsylvania cares about its highway crews, that laws will be enforced, that speeding in a work zone could be MURDER, that they will be accountable for putting lives in jeopardy.

Law enforcement, law enforcement, law enforcement.


Nothing to do with unions. Not related AT ALL to the reason that I believe that some particular union benefits are needed for some particular public employees.