Debate Now Should Capital punishment be allowed?

[miketx]

I keep leaning towards the reality that some individuals are simply lost to humanity and never capable of redemption. What is the value to society that we warehouse trash to become more antisocial and violent over decades of their wasted existence?
View attachment 180315
Does anyone really believe those that say we can reform individuals such as the above which our prisons are filled with?
The only reform I see needed is a limit to appeals in extreme cases where guilt is in no doubt. I have no moral qualms regarding death for individuals incapable of civilized behavior.
I found the poll lacking.

many people in prison do not want to be reformed.

 

[longknife]

Capital Punishment: something present in American culture but not really talked about.

I am curious to see what you all think about capital punishment/ the death penalty. Now I know this is a long post but I think it is important for people to understand what the death penalty is. Your patience in reading this is greatly appreciated.

I personally find that the death penalty is excessively flawed to be used. Facts and statistics have shown a real problem in how we execute people. For reference here is a list of things that I found:


> The Cornell law school states that the Supreme Court Of The United States (SCOTUS) has ruled that punishment must fit crime. The only offense punishable by death is murder. Rape by itself is not a death sentence. SCOTUS has also ruled that the death penalty must be decided on by a unanimous jury vote.

> There have been many Supreme Court cases involving the Death penalty. As shown in a [UR=[URL='https://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/us/death-penalty-fast-facts/index.html']Death Penalty Fast Facts - CNN[/URL]] CNN article. [/URL]

> The most recent challenge comes in the fact that many pharmaceutical companies block the use of their drugs.

> This has led to states finding alternative methods of execution drugs. One drug in particular, according to the New York Times is Midazolam, a powerful sedative.

> The use of this drug, according that CNN timeline and The Death Penalty Information Center(DPIC) , has resulted in botched executions in Ohio, Oklahoma, Arizona and Arkansas.

> There have been a total of 1,459 executions in the US since 1977. Before 1977 there was a ten year moratorium on the death penalty.

> DPIC fact sheet reports that in North Carolina it costs $2.16 million more to execute someone rather than impose a natural life sentence. In Texas, it costs three times as much. In Florida $51 million is spent every year to execute someone.

> There have been 161 exonerations of inmates on death row.


The pro-death penalty arguments consist of one of the following.

> It’s a deterrent

> It saves money/resources

> It’s justice

All three of these have serious flaws.

To start, it is not a deterrent. According to DPIC the South accounts for 80% of executions in the US. The region that executes the second most amount of people is the Midwest, followed by the West, and lastly the Northeast. DPIC shows from FBI’s 2016 Uniform Crime Report that the South has the highest homicide rate, followed by the Midwest, West, and the Northeast brings up the end.

It is also argued that killing people saves money. However, the stats shown above shows that capital punishment is far more expensive than putting someone in prision for the rest of their life.

The last argument is that it is justice. While there is an argument here, I still disagree with it. The idea of
“a life for a life” is very barbaric. Capital punishment is the only time we see this retaliatory type of punishment too. Grand Theft Auto is not punished by someone stealing the defendants car, arson is not punished by burning their house down. I find that capital punishment is less about justice, and more about vengeance.

You also have to consider that there have been many people exonerated from death row. A quick YouTube search for “Death row exonerations” will show many instances of innocent people almost being killed for a crime they never committed.

Even if someone is guilty, there have been many instances of botched executions. DPIC states that lethal injection, the method primarily used today, has the highest percentage of error. Even as recent as February of this year, Doyle Hamm was not executed by Alabama due to the fact the state could not find a vein to use in the injection. Hamm states that the failed attempt was very painful. That same issue was brought up to the courts before his attempted execution.

Some people will argue that it does not matter if they feel pain. They still did something horrific and we should not have any sympathy for them. While many of the crimes that land people on death row are indeed horrific, it does not mean they can be tortured to death. The eight-amendment specifically forbids the use cruel and unusual punishment. This is extended to the retaliatory type of punishment being described here.

Given all of this, I think the death penalty is excessively flawed and too broken to be used in the way it is. The only real argument for is that is vengeance, but even that is flawed and barbaric.

However I also try to see the other side of the story. Playing devil’s advocate for moment here are some things to consider:

> What if a prisoner volunteers to be executed?

> What if a prisoner is sent to prison for murder and then kills someone while incarcerated?

> What if there is irrefutable evidence, such as video tape or something else that makes otherwise it impossible to refute that a certain individual killed someone.

> What about extreme cases like the Oklahoma city bomber(who was executed), the Charleston shooter, the Parkland shooter or the Boston bomber?

> Some states are bringing in nitrogen hypoxia, a technique that is used often in euthanasia and is painless.

As you can see there are questions or scenarios that are even a gray area to me. That is why I am curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on this.

I think everyone put to death as the result of a verdict by a jury and upheld by the appellate system should by in public!

 

[Auld Phart]

Works for me

 

[Moonglow]

Works for me

View attachment 180348

Only if we can buy body parts..

 

[Jarlaxle]

No, for one simple reason: I flat do not trust the court system.

 

[JoeB131]

So the morons in IL abolished the DP because they weren't killing enough of them? Liberals get stupider by the day.

No, we abolished the DP because the process was so flawed we couldnt' be sure we were killing the right guys. For every John Wayne Gacy who had 29 bodies under his house, we had a Rolando Cruz who was exonerated by DNA, but the system refused to admit it made a mistake.

 

[jon_berzerk]

it should be reformed

1- needs to be much closer to the date of conviction

2- it should be done much more in public

 

[Patric Paramedic]

Our Death Penalty system is seriously flawed and absolutely needs to me gutted and started over. But here's one point I believe is irrefutable:

The recent high school shooter could have been found guilty immediately after his confession, and executed by a guillotine placed on the courthouse lawn within 3 days, with cameras rolling for all to see.

Then the President of the United States faces the cameras and says, "If you use a weapon and take a life in a crime, you will lose your head within a week."

I submit these types of monstrous crimes would shrink to near zero.

Until then, we reap precisely what we tolerate - and you can bet the house we'll all be treated to more of the same, before this year is even over. Count on it.

 

[JoeB131]

it should be reformed

1- needs to be much closer to the date of conviction

2- it should be done much more in public

Should do more to be mean and cruel, to fill the empty space in the souls of right wingers.

 

[JoeB131]

Our Death Penalty system is seriously flawed and absolutely needs to me gutted and started over. But here's one point I believe is irrefutable:

The recent high school shooter could have been found guilty immediately after his confession, and executed by a guillotine placed on the courthouse lawn within 3 days, with cameras rolling for all to see.

Then the President of the United States faces the cameras and says, "If you use a weapon and take a life in a crime, you will lose your head within a week."

I submit these types of monstrous crimes would shrink to near zero.

Until then, we reap precisely what we tolerate - and you can bet the house we'll all be treated to more of the same, before this year is even over. Count on it.

No, they wouldn't.

What is obvious about most mass shooters is that they don't care about dying. Most of them in fact die during the rampages they engage in.

In the case of Nikolas Cruz, it is clear that he was mentally ill. He even begged TO BE LOCKED UP before he hurt someone. He knew that there was something very wrong with him.

 

[miketx]

it should be reformed

1- needs to be much closer to the date of conviction

2- it should be done much more in public

Should do more to be mean and cruel, to fill the empty space in the souls of right wingers.

No scum bag it would be a deterrent.

 

[JoeB131]

No scum bag it would be a deterrent.

If that were the case, then Texas would have the lowest murder rate, and Vermont the highest.

 

[jon_berzerk]

it should be reformed

1- needs to be much closer to the date of conviction

2- it should be done much more in public

Should do more to be mean and cruel, to fill the empty space in the souls of right wingers.

so thanks for adding how you feel

 

[JoeB131]

so thanks for adding how you feel

Meh, guy, just pointing out that executing some helpless slob will not make you feel any better about your failed life.

 

[jon_berzerk]

so thanks for adding how you feel

Meh, guy, just pointing out that executing some helpless slob will not make you feel any better about your failed life.

then you are just a liar because i see no one here posting that

 

[MaryL]

Capital Punishment: something present in American culture but not really talked about.

I am curious to see what you all think about capital punishment/ the death penalty. Now I know this is a long post but I think it is important for people to understand what the death penalty is. Your patience in reading this is greatly appreciated.

I personally find that the death penalty is excessively flawed to be used. Facts and statistics have shown a real problem in how we execute people. For reference here is a list of things that I found:


> The Cornell law school states that the Supreme Court Of The United States (SCOTUS) has ruled that punishment must fit crime. The only offense punishable by death is murder. Rape by itself is not a death sentence. SCOTUS has also ruled that the death penalty must be decided on by a unanimous jury vote.

> There have been many Supreme Court cases involving the Death penalty. As shown in a [UR=[URL='https://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/us/death-penalty-fast-facts/index.html']Death Penalty Fast Facts - CNN[/URL]] CNN article. [/URL]

> The most recent challenge comes in the fact that many pharmaceutical companies block the use of their drugs.

> This has led to states finding alternative methods of execution drugs. One drug in particular, according to the New York Times is Midazolam, a powerful sedative.

> The use of this drug, according that CNN timeline and The Death Penalty Information Center(DPIC) , has resulted in botched executions in Ohio, Oklahoma, Arizona and Arkansas.

> There have been a total of 1,459 executions in the US since 1977. Before 1977 there was a ten year moratorium on the death penalty.

> DPIC fact sheet reports that in North Carolina it costs $2.16 million more to execute someone rather than impose a natural life sentence. In Texas, it costs three times as much. In Florida $51 million is spent every year to execute someone.

> There have been 161 exonerations of inmates on death row.


The pro-death penalty arguments consist of one of the following.

> It’s a deterrent

> It saves money/resources

> It’s justice

All three of these have serious flaws.

To start, it is not a deterrent. According to DPIC the South accounts for 80% of executions in the US. The region that executes the second most amount of people is the Midwest, followed by the West, and lastly the Northeast. DPIC shows from FBI’s 2016 Uniform Crime Report that the South has the highest homicide rate, followed by the Midwest, West, and the Northeast brings up the end.

It is also argued that killing people saves money. However, the stats shown above shows that capital punishment is far more expensive than putting someone in prision for the rest of their life.

The last argument is that it is justice. While there is an argument here, I still disagree with it. The idea of
“a life for a life” is very barbaric. Capital punishment is the only time we see this retaliatory type of punishment too. Grand Theft Auto is not punished by someone stealing the defendants car, arson is not punished by burning their house down. I find that capital punishment is less about justice, and more about vengeance.

You also have to consider that there have been many people exonerated from death row. A quick YouTube search for “Death row exonerations” will show many instances of innocent people almost being killed for a crime they never committed.

Even if someone is guilty, there have been many instances of botched executions. DPIC states that lethal injection, the method primarily used today, has the highest percentage of error. Even as recent as February of this year, Doyle Hamm was not executed by Alabama due to the fact the state could not find a vein to use in the injection. Hamm states that the failed attempt was very painful. That same issue was brought up to the courts before his attempted execution.

Some people will argue that it does not matter if they feel pain. They still did something horrific and we should not have any sympathy for them. While many of the crimes that land people on death row are indeed horrific, it does not mean they can be tortured to death. The eight-amendment specifically forbids the use cruel and unusual punishment. This is extended to the retaliatory type of punishment being described here.

Given all of this, I think the death penalty is excessively flawed and too broken to be used in the way it is. The only real argument for is that is vengeance, but even that is flawed and barbaric.

However I also try to see the other side of the story. Playing devil’s advocate for moment here are some things to consider:

> What if a prisoner volunteers to be executed?

> What if a prisoner is sent to prison for murder and then kills someone while incarcerated?

> What if there is irrefutable evidence, such as video tape or something else that makes otherwise it impossible to refute that a certain individual killed someone.

> What about extreme cases like the Oklahoma city bomber(who was executed), the Charleston shooter, the Parkland shooter or the Boston bomber?

> Some states are bringing in nitrogen hypoxia, a technique that is used often in euthanasia and is painless.

As you can see there are questions or scenarios that are even a gray area to me. That is why I am curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on this.

As a juror grilled on this very question, yes, I support the death penalty. As an agnostic, and a cynic, I almost demand it. Harsh? The death penalty dosen't stop heinous crimes, nope. True. But it's good enough.Life imprisonment? A good hanging will suffice. What's the big deal, anyway? Think of it as putting you pet cat to sleep, accept it's Hannibal Lecher instead and he's smarter than you and would eat your liver.

 

[JoeB131]

then you are just a liar because i see no one here posting that

That's all I see here. Angry people who think a human sacrifice will appease their anger.

It won't.

 

[jon_berzerk]

then you are just a liar because i see no one here posting that

That's all I see here. Angry people who think a human sacrifice will appease their anger.

It won't.

That's all I see here. Angry people

indeed they are called leftists such as yourself

 

[JoeB131]

As a juror grilled on this very question, yes, I support the death penalty. As an agnostic, and a cynic, I almost demand it. Harsh? The death penalty dosen't stop heinous crimes, nope. True. But it's good enough.Life imprisonment? A good hanging will suffice. What's the big deal, anyway? Think of it as putting you pet cat to sleep, accept it's Hannibal Lecher instead and he's smarter than you and would eat your liver.

Hannibal Lector is a fictional character.

Here's a real person who experienced our capital punishment system. His name was Rolando Cruz. A 10 year old girl named Jeanine Nicarrico was kidnapped from her home and murdered, and the police in DuPage County decided that Cruz was good for it, because he was brown and a habitual troublemaker.

Except he didn't do it. ANother guy, Brian Dugan, confessed to the murder and promised to make a statement in court if the state would take the DP off the table. (He was already serving a life sentence for two other murders.)

DuPage county went ahead with the murder trial anyway,and excluded all mention of Dugan's confession. He was convicted and sentenced to death. An appeal court ruled that the first trial improperly excluded evidence about Dugan and they tried him again. He was convicted again, largely on the word of investigators who admitted later they fabricated a confession and other evidence.

A court overturned that conviction, and because this dragged on so long, someone invented DNA testing and finally got around to testing the semen evidence and yup. It was Dugan after all. And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids at Northwestern and the innocence project.

The prosecutors in DuPage were not to be deterred and tried to try Cruz a third time, claiming he and Dugan were accomplices, even though there was no evidence the men had ever met or ran in the same social circles. A judge FINALLY put an end to this.

A subsequent investigation brought charges against the cops and prosecutors. A DuPage County jury acquitted them and then they all went out and had drinks together.

These are the people you want to trust as to whether people live or die?

 

[miketx]

so thanks for adding how you feel

Meh, guy, just pointing out that executing some helpless slob will not make you feel any better about your failed life.

Calls a murderer a helpless slob. We know what joe is.