Should all jobs be required to pay at least a living wage?

[asterism]

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

As an example, lawn service here in Central FL is pretty expensive compared to when I was a teenager here (I mowed 5 lawns from age 11 to 15). The only options are landscaping companies or doing it yourself. There aren't any kids that do it for extra money anymore due to various issues. No more $10 lawn jobs. Some think this is a good thing because it keeps the kids from being exploited. However, there aren't the same opportunities for young kids to learn how to work for others. I fondly remember having a savings account that built up (slowly) and the pride I felt watching it grow. I enjoyed the luxury of sometimes being able to buy something that my parents thought was too expensive or frivolous.

That opportunity doesn't exist for my kids and won't until they are 16, and people around here that would hire kids either have less manicured lawns or they just do the work themselves. There is not any economic benefit to anyone.

There is another issue with the increase in the minimum wage, FICA, and Medicare. When I was a teen the minimum wage was $3.35, for a total marginal cost to an employer of $3.59 per hour. Now the minimum wage is $7.25 and the total marginal cost is $7.80, or $3.79 in 1985 dollars. It doesn't seem significant, but that's 5% more. Teens generally work in low margin businesses, so 5% is significant. Entry level part-time jobs for teenagers are much harder to find now than they were 30 years ago.

 

[gallantwarrior]

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

As an example, lawn service here in Central FL is pretty expensive compared to when I was a teenager here (I mowed 5 lawns from age 11 to 15). The only options are landscaping companies or doing it yourself. There aren't any kids that do it for extra money anymore due to various issues. No more $10 lawn jobs. Some think this is a good thing because it keeps the kids from being exploited. However, there aren't the same opportunities for young kids to learn how to work for others. I fondly remember having a savings account that built up (slowly) and the pride I felt watching it grow. I enjoyed the luxury of sometimes being able to buy something that my parents thought was too expensive or frivolous.

That opportunity doesn't exist for my kids and won't until they are 16, and people around here that would hire kids either have less manicured lawns or they just do the work themselves. There is not any economic benefit to anyone.

There is another issue with the increase in the minimum wage, FICA, and Medicare. When I was a teen the minimum wage was $3.35, for a total marginal cost to an employer of $3.59 per hour. Now the minimum wage is $7.25 and the total marginal cost is $7.80, or $3.79 in 1985 dollars. It doesn't seem significant, but that's 5% more. Teens generally work in low margin businesses, so 5% is significant. Entry level part-time jobs for teenagers are much harder to find now than they were 30 years ago.

Entry-level, low-paid jobs aren't intended to provide a living wage. They are entry-level, which implies primarily unskilled workers hold those jobs. These are jobs where someone can establish their work ethic and build a reputation as a good worker, garnering favorable recommendations when they have developed the skills to move on.

 

[asterism]

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

As an example, lawn service here in Central FL is pretty expensive compared to when I was a teenager here (I mowed 5 lawns from age 11 to 15). The only options are landscaping companies or doing it yourself. There aren't any kids that do it for extra money anymore due to various issues. No more $10 lawn jobs. Some think this is a good thing because it keeps the kids from being exploited. However, there aren't the same opportunities for young kids to learn how to work for others. I fondly remember having a savings account that built up (slowly) and the pride I felt watching it grow. I enjoyed the luxury of sometimes being able to buy something that my parents thought was too expensive or frivolous.

That opportunity doesn't exist for my kids and won't until they are 16, and people around here that would hire kids either have less manicured lawns or they just do the work themselves. There is not any economic benefit to anyone.

There is another issue with the increase in the minimum wage, FICA, and Medicare. When I was a teen the minimum wage was $3.35, for a total marginal cost to an employer of $3.59 per hour. Now the minimum wage is $7.25 and the total marginal cost is $7.80, or $3.79 in 1985 dollars. It doesn't seem significant, but that's 5% more. Teens generally work in low margin businesses, so 5% is significant. Entry level part-time jobs for teenagers are much harder to find now than they were 30 years ago.

Entry-level, low-paid jobs aren't intended to provide a living wage. They are entry-level, which implies primarily unskilled workers hold those jobs. These are jobs where someone can establish their work ethic and build a reputation as a good worker, garnering favorable recommendations when they have developed the skills to move on.

I never said anything contrary to that.

 

[ReallyMeow]

If you all think earning minimum wage is so great, go ahead and make that personal sacrifice and live within your means, know who else works for basic food and shelter? slaves. go ahead and be a slave if you think its so great. but tell me before you take that pepsi challenge, if everyone is only earning bare sustenance, WHO THE FUCK BUYS ANYTHING? nearly a third of working Americans make 18k or under a year, and you wonder why the economy is down. Good wages are the backbone of a good economy. No matter how low you make wages, not hiring someone is ALWAYS cheaper than paying someone a wage, if the business can do its job with 12 employees, the business owner isnt going to cycle out 6 and use the savings to hire 6 more- he's going to keep that as profits.

What a fabulous strawman. I think that most of the people on this thread have made the effort to improve their skill sets so that they can have a job which pays greater than minimum wage.

Have you not? If so, then feel free to keep complaining, but at least be honest about why you feel like a slave (which is a terrible and inaccurate comparison to make in any case since you are at least free and well enough off to be posting on the internet, but you chose it, so I'll speak in the terms you chose).

My skillsets are robust, its that I care about other people, and America, that I roll around in the shit with you swine. Ok, its fun to make fun of you too, that goes a long way. But really, you degenerates are advocating slavery and its just as easy as calling you out on it.

Good wages are the backbone of a good economy.

too stupid but perfectly liberal. If that were true we'd just pass a law that $200/hour was minimum and $500 was average wage. I doubt one economist would support that.

I said good, not insane. But dont you find it weird how your propaganda has you defending millionaires, while simultaneously ridiculing $500 an hour wages? How are you going to get to a million dollars in 2000 hours? Oh my gosh thats $500 an hour!!! DUN DUN DUUUUUN. If you're going to attack everyone earning $500 an hour, dont stop there, we cant afford to have anyone earning $500 an hour.

If you all think earning minimum wage is so great, go ahead and make that personal sacrifice and live within your means, know who else works for basic food and shelter? slaves. go ahead and be a slave if you think its so great. but tell me before you take that pepsi challenge, if everyone is only earning bare sustenance, WHO THE FUCK BUYS ANYTHING? nearly a third of working Americans make 18k or under a year, and you wonder why the economy is down. Good wages are the backbone of a good economy. No matter how low you make wages, not hiring someone is ALWAYS cheaper than paying someone a wage, if the business can do its job with 12 employees, the business owner isnt going to cycle out 6 and use the savings to hire 6 more- he's going to keep that as profits.

Being a "slave" is not an entry level job with opportunity for advancement. Most minimum wage jobs ARE so making that correlation between the two is rather far fetched. The truth is that most people start at a low wage and gradually (by increasing their value to employers by adding job skills and experience) move on to higher paying jobs. That's a natural process...something that doesn't need regulation by the government. Why? Because if I have a skilled employee who is an asset I either need to pay that person commensurate with their skills...or I will lose them to a competitor.

When you force employers to pay more than a job is worth (because what many people don't seem to realize is that the cost of training inexperienced workers to do a job is substantial!) what you do is make it less likely that an inexperienced worker gets hired in the first place. One look at the unemployment rate among teenagers tells you that is something that is happening now. If you raise the minimum wage you'll simply make that worse.

Right, what happens when everyone flipping a burger today becomes the manager tomorrow?

You want that burger flipped? Pay enough so the person can raise a family WITHOUT foodstamps. Theyre doing their job, its the employer who is freeloading off the govts teat, let the employer be the one who goes groveling for a handout.

6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying | Cracked.com
#4

It's like setting a jar of moonshine on the floor of a boxcar full of 10 hobos and saying, "Now fight for it!" Sure, in the bloody aftermath you can say to each of the losers, "Hey, you could have had it if you'd fought harder!" and that's true on an individual level. But not collectively -- you knew goddamned well that nine hobos weren't getting any hooch that night. So why are you acting like it's their fault that only one of them is drunk

Where the fuck is that happening?
Ya' see, that's why trying to have a debate with just about anyone who advocates the living wage BS, is a total waste of time, because they never deal in facts, and only offer up bogus strawman talking points....And it also becomes quite clear that they have no clue on how a business runs, regardless of size, and are completely clueless as to the damage such a mandate would cause.

Right here, wages have been flat for 30 years, now theyre shrinking. But thanks for admitting that people working in poverty isnt just some temporary fluke that people endure for a little while getting trained; with so much of the workforce toiling in poverty, it would be a pretty big shock to the system if implemented all at once, I didnt say it had to be, but it is an ideal worth pursuing. Or do you just love the idea of Americans dependent on the govt for sustenance so much?
Rise in Food Stamp Use a Symptom of Dependence on Washington

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

If its valuable enough for someone to be hired AT ALL, then its worth paying a decent wage.

 

[Politico]

No.

 

[The Rabbi]

A wage that allows a person to be self-sufficient and have all basic needs met for an extended period of time. For this thread assume:

Transportation
Food
Clothing
Shelter
Healthcare

Without relying on anyone else.

OK, let's go with that:
Food and shelter. Period. Anything else is not a basic 'need'. I mean, why don't you include entertainment, technology (periodically updated to remain current), companionship, travel/vacation?

I propose a more novel concept, one that became outmoded when government got involved, how about you live within your means? If you can't afford to rent (or buy) a McMansion, you rent a modest apartment. If you can't afford a spanky new car, you don't have one, you walk or use public transportation. I you can't afford the latest cell phone or computer, you don't have them. If you can't afford to shop at Old Navy, you go to Salvation Army. No one is entitled to have what someone else has if they have not earned it.

I consider healthcare a basic need. Entertainment, technology, companionship, and vacations are not basic needs. Clothing (beyond rags) and transportation are basic needs because they are necessary for employment.

Your proposal is outside the scope of this thread, where I'm looking for opinions. I have not advocated a position here (yet).

I consider beer a basic need. I consider companionship a basic need. Every person has an opinion of what is "basic" for him. The fact is that most people in third world countries have basic needs taken care of, but no one in this country would consider that sufficient.
So the idea of "living wage" is fatuous. It is like "fairness", whatever anyone thinks it is.

 

[The Rabbi]

This is simply not true in any meaningful sense. Ir ealize you will trot out some chart showing "median household income" and it will demonstrate that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[Oldstyle]

"My skillsets are robust, its that I care about other people, and America, that I roll around in the shit with you swine. Ok, its fun to make fun of you too, that goes a long way. But really, you degenerates are advocating slavery and its just as easy as calling you out on it." Really Meow

I hate to break this to you, ReallyMeow...but you're one of the more naive, uninformed people I've run across on this site with next to zero in the way of an economic "skill set". Your "solutions" to our problems aren't based on economic theory but a political agenda. People like you should remain far away from any decision making process in regards to our economy because you are totally clueless as to what you are talking about.

 

[daveman]

But really, you degenerates are advocating slavery and its just as easy as calling you out on it.

No one's advocating slavery, dumbass.

 

[asterism]

If you all think earning minimum wage is so great, go ahead and make that personal sacrifice and live within your means, know who else works for basic food and shelter? slaves. go ahead and be a slave if you think its so great. but tell me before you take that pepsi challenge, if everyone is only earning bare sustenance, WHO THE FUCK BUYS ANYTHING? nearly a third of working Americans make 18k or under a year, and you wonder why the economy is down. Good wages are the backbone of a good economy. No matter how low you make wages, not hiring someone is ALWAYS cheaper than paying someone a wage, if the business can do its job with 12 employees, the business owner isnt going to cycle out 6 and use the savings to hire 6 more- he's going to keep that as profits.

What a fabulous strawman. I think that most of the people on this thread have made the effort to improve their skill sets so that they can have a job which pays greater than minimum wage.

Have you not? If so, then feel free to keep complaining, but at least be honest about why you feel like a slave (which is a terrible and inaccurate comparison to make in any case since you are at least free and well enough off to be posting on the internet, but you chose it, so I'll speak in the terms you chose).

My skillsets are robust, its that I care about other people, and America, that I roll around in the shit with you swine. Ok, its fun to make fun of you too, that goes a long way. But really, you degenerates are advocating slavery and its just as easy as calling you out on it.


I said good, not insane. But dont you find it weird how your propaganda has you defending millionaires, while simultaneously ridiculing $500 an hour wages? How are you going to get to a million dollars in 2000 hours? Oh my gosh thats $500 an hour!!! DUN DUN DUUUUUN. If you're going to attack everyone earning $500 an hour, dont stop there, we cant afford to have anyone earning $500 an hour.




Right, what happens when everyone flipping a burger today becomes the manager tomorrow?

You want that burger flipped? Pay enough so the person can raise a family WITHOUT foodstamps. Theyre doing their job, its the employer who is freeloading off the govts teat, let the employer be the one who goes groveling for a handout.

6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying | Cracked.com
#4

Where the fuck is that happening?
Ya' see, that's why trying to have a debate with just about anyone who advocates the living wage BS, is a total waste of time, because they never deal in facts, and only offer up bogus strawman talking points....And it also becomes quite clear that they have no clue on how a business runs, regardless of size, and are completely clueless as to the damage such a mandate would cause.

Right here, wages have been flat for 30 years, now theyre shrinking. But thanks for admitting that people working in poverty isnt just some temporary fluke that people endure for a little while getting trained; with so much of the workforce toiling in poverty, it would be a pretty big shock to the system if implemented all at once, I didnt say it had to be, but it is an ideal worth pursuing. Or do you just love the idea of Americans dependent on the govt for sustenance so much?
Rise in Food Stamp Use a Symptom of Dependence on Washington

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

If its valuable enough for someone to be hired AT ALL, then its worth paying a decent wage.

I just don't understand that logic. Why stifle opportunity for someone just because an arbitrary standard that was unnecessary for them was applied?

 

[Amelia]

.... But really, you degenerates are advocating slavery and its just as easy as calling you out on it.

....

I started to read your answer but then I saw that statement ^^^, which pretty much means that you're unapologetically full of sh*t. So that takes care of that.

 

[gallantwarrior]

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

As an example, lawn service here in Central FL is pretty expensive compared to when I was a teenager here (I mowed 5 lawns from age 11 to 15). The only options are landscaping companies or doing it yourself. There aren't any kids that do it for extra money anymore due to various issues. No more $10 lawn jobs. Some think this is a good thing because it keeps the kids from being exploited. However, there aren't the same opportunities for young kids to learn how to work for others. I fondly remember having a savings account that built up (slowly) and the pride I felt watching it grow. I enjoyed the luxury of sometimes being able to buy something that my parents thought was too expensive or frivolous.

That opportunity doesn't exist for my kids and won't until they are 16, and people around here that would hire kids either have less manicured lawns or they just do the work themselves. There is not any economic benefit to anyone.

There is another issue with the increase in the minimum wage, FICA, and Medicare. When I was a teen the minimum wage was $3.35, for a total marginal cost to an employer of $3.59 per hour. Now the minimum wage is $7.25 and the total marginal cost is $7.80, or $3.79 in 1985 dollars. It doesn't seem significant, but that's 5% more. Teens generally work in low margin businesses, so 5% is significant. Entry level part-time jobs for teenagers are much harder to find now than they were 30 years ago.

Entry-level, low-paid jobs aren't intended to provide a living wage. They are entry-level, which implies primarily unskilled workers hold those jobs. These are jobs where someone can establish their work ethic and build a reputation as a good worker, garnering favorable recommendations when they have developed the skills to move on.

I never said anything contrary to that.

I never said you did. I was agreeing with what you wrote.

 

[asterism]

Entry-level, low-paid jobs aren't intended to provide a living wage. They are entry-level, which implies primarily unskilled workers hold those jobs. These are jobs where someone can establish their work ethic and build a reputation as a good worker, garnering favorable recommendations when they have developed the skills to move on.

I never said anything contrary to that.

I never said you did. I was agreeing with what you wrote.

Ah.

I agree. Entry-level is just that. It would really be a shame if those opportunities disappeared, and that's exactly what would happen if the minimum wage was lifted to a level that allowed for long-term existence. Either the jobs at that level would disappear or inflation would nullify any gains.

Look at college tuition and technical training. The average costs keep rising and the average value keeps sinking. That's a function of a system where nearly everyone can get financing for it without regard to propensity to pay it back.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Should all jobs be required to pay at least a living wage?

Assume a living wage for the area, not a national one-size-fits-all standard.

Why or why not?

No .... for obvious reasons.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I never said anything contrary to that.

I never said you did. I was agreeing with what you wrote.

Ah.

I agree. Entry-level is just that. It would really be a shame if those opportunities disappeared, and that's exactly what would happen if the minimum wage was lifted to a level that allowed for long-term existence. Either the jobs at that level would disappear or inflation would nullify any gains.

Look at college tuition and technical training. The average costs keep rising and the average value keeps sinking. That's a function of a system where nearly everyone can get financing for it without regard to propensity to pay it back.

The same thing happened with the housing market, too.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

If you all think earning minimum wage is so great, go ahead and make that personal sacrifice and live within your means, know who else works for basic food and shelter? slaves. go ahead and be a slave if you think its so great. but tell me before you take that pepsi challenge, if everyone is only earning bare sustenance, WHO THE FUCK BUYS ANYTHING? nearly a third of working Americans make 18k or under a year, and you wonder why the economy is down. Good wages are the backbone of a good economy. No matter how low you make wages, not hiring someone is ALWAYS cheaper than paying someone a wage, if the business can do its job with 12 employees, the business owner isnt going to cycle out 6 and use the savings to hire 6 more- he's going to keep that as profits.

What a fabulous strawman. I think that most of the people on this thread have made the effort to improve their skill sets so that they can have a job which pays greater than minimum wage.

Have you not? If so, then feel free to keep complaining, but at least be honest about why you feel like a slave (which is a terrible and inaccurate comparison to make in any case since you are at least free and well enough off to be posting on the internet, but you chose it, so I'll speak in the terms you chose).

My skillsets are robust, its that I care about other people, and America, that I roll around in the shit with you swine. Ok, its fun to make fun of you too, that goes a long way. But really, you degenerates are advocating slavery and its just as easy as calling you out on it.


I said good, not insane. But dont you find it weird how your propaganda has you defending millionaires, while simultaneously ridiculing $500 an hour wages? How are you going to get to a million dollars in 2000 hours? Oh my gosh thats $500 an hour!!! DUN DUN DUUUUUN. If you're going to attack everyone earning $500 an hour, dont stop there, we cant afford to have anyone earning $500 an hour.




Right, what happens when everyone flipping a burger today becomes the manager tomorrow?

You want that burger flipped? Pay enough so the person can raise a family WITHOUT foodstamps. Theyre doing their job, its the employer who is freeloading off the govts teat, let the employer be the one who goes groveling for a handout.

6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying | Cracked.com
#4

Where the fuck is that happening?
Ya' see, that's why trying to have a debate with just about anyone who advocates the living wage BS, is a total waste of time, because they never deal in facts, and only offer up bogus strawman talking points....And it also becomes quite clear that they have no clue on how a business runs, regardless of size, and are completely clueless as to the damage such a mandate would cause.

Right here, wages have been flat for 30 years, now theyre shrinking. But thanks for admitting that people working in poverty isnt just some temporary fluke that people endure for a little while getting trained; with so much of the workforce toiling in poverty, it would be a pretty big shock to the system if implemented all at once, I didnt say it had to be, but it is an ideal worth pursuing. Or do you just love the idea of Americans dependent on the govt for sustenance so much?
Rise in Food Stamp Use a Symptom of Dependence on Washington

If a living wage is the minimum, what happens to the low-skill low-value jobs millions of people do part time for extra money?

If its valuable enough for someone to be hired AT ALL, then its worth paying a decent wage.

I'd say $7/hr to fuck up my order damn near every time I place one is overpaid. How much should someone get paid to do that which I could train a chimpanzee to do? And probably better at that.

Good grief you libs are stupid.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You want that burger flipped? Pay enough so the person can raise a family WITHOUT foodstamps.

dear, we don't want to encourage burger flippers. Is that really over your head?

If one guy is an MD and makes $500K and one guy is a burger flipper and makes minimum the message is clear. Get a better job, make a greater contribution to society, don't think of yourself and your children as part of the permanent loser Marxist liberal class.

See why we are positive a liberal is slow??

 

[Noomi]

I am always amazed when liberals toss this idea of a living wage around, like there's no consequences. Say you raise the minimum wage up to $20 bucks an hour on average. How many businesses do you think can absorb that extra expense without raising prices bigtime or outsourcing jobs or going out of business? Say they raise prices to cover the higher labor costs, how competitive does that make foreign products here? How attractive will US goods be at a higher price overseas? The day this is tried is the day we enter a depression greater than the one in the 1930s.

Only a conservative would think that liberals want to raise minimum wage to $20 an hour. No one is saying that at all.

You should be taking home no less than $400 a week in a full time, minimum wage job in the US.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I am always amazed when liberals toss this idea of a living wage around, like there's no consequences. Say you raise the minimum wage up to $20 bucks an hour on average. How many businesses do you think can absorb that extra expense without raising prices bigtime or outsourcing jobs or going out of business? Say they raise prices to cover the higher labor costs, how competitive does that make foreign products here? How attractive will US goods be at a higher price overseas? The day this is tried is the day we enter a depression greater than the one in the 1930s.

Only a conservative would think that liberals want to raise minimum wage to $20 an hour. No one is saying that at all.

You should be taking home no less than $400 a week in a full time, minimum wage job in the US.

Says the child who has never been run a business in her own country of residence, let alone in our country.
Thanks for playing, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

 

[dblack]

Sorry, but minimum wage laws are irrational. And anyone advocating them is a fucking idiot. Sometimes truth is hard.