Should Abortion Be Illegal Once a Heartbeat Is Detectable?

[Care4all]

Not certain if this has been said yet, since I only got about a quarter of the way through reading the posts in this thread....

BUT, why in the world are Pro-life posters agreeing with this measure when I had THOUGHT, that the argument of the Pro-life side was that "Life begins at conception", and any killing of an embryo or fetus in any stage of life, is murder?

So WHAT gives?

Are you all NOW agreeing with the pro-choice side, that this entity is not a human being until there is some vital sign of such....in the example of this bill....when the heart actually starts beating?


also:

oh, and those that mention heartbeat as a sign of life or not....a human being is not declared dead until their brain waves show them as dead....it has nothing to do with their heart beating on it's own or not....at least that is my understanding of it...??? (hmmm...of course when the heart stops, eventually the blood will stop flowing to the brain and ones brain waves will stop....?)

 

[Gadawg73]

It's not a stand-in, dumbass. You asked for the thought process, and you got it. The fact that you got it in a form indicating my stunned disbelief that you're so ignorant as to have to ask doesn't let you pretend that you didn't get your answer.

Why would rape or incest distinguish the pregnancy from any other? It distinguishes the sexual encounter from a consensual one between non-related parties, but a normal pregnancy with a healthy fetus is a normal pregnancy with a healthy fetus.

What kind of fool blames an innocent baby for the actions of its biological progenitors?

You stand for giving GOVERNMENT the power to determine who can and who can not have an abortion when a family member was raped.
Classic LIBERALISM.
You are a closet liberal.

No the stance is for not killing the innocent. religion aside,gov,aside its still a person,just small,and totally unable to defend his/her self.

Where has anyone ever denied that?
A woman that is pregnant and does not eat right is killing her child.
And you would want government to stop that.
A woman that is pregnant and smokes crack and does meth is killing her child.
You would want testing of all pregnant women to stop that.
Women smoke and drink excessively while pregnant.
Women do not watch their kids as toddlers in many cases and the toddler falls into the pool or off the deck.
But of course we need the government watch dog to make sure that does not happen either.

Oppose wanting government to legislate the diet of pregnant women and one is labeled a baby killer and anti children.

 

[Gadawg73]

Bunch of petulant children, aren't they? "If you don't play by my rules, I'll take my ball and go home!"

Unreasonable people are incapable of accepting the reasonable.

Your premise is that only liberals oppose making the govermment the determiner of who legally receives an abortion and who doesn't.
Most every conservative I know does not waht government involved in abortion.
Something about limiting the power of government which was practiced by the Founders.

I fully support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

But that right ends where another human being's body starts. And her baby is another human being.

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.

 

[Gadawg73]

You stand for giving GOVERNMENT the power to determine who can and who can not have an abortion when a family member was raped.
Classic LIBERALISM.
You are a closet liberal.

No the stance is for not killing the innocent. religion aside,gov,aside its still a person,just small,and totally unable to defend his/her self.

Exactly. The proper job of government has always been to protect the rights of its citizens, and if one does not have the right to be alive, one has no rights at all. Expecting government to protect the lives of helpless infants falls into exactly the same category as expecting government to protect ME from having corrosive substances sprayed on me, or someone chopping me into pieces, or someone punching a hole in my skull and suctioning my brain out.

OK, you are half way there as I have been asking and asking and asking HOW does government accomplish what you guys claim you stand for so for the 131st time:
HOW DO YOU STOP ABORTION?
Again, you do know that EACH STATE HAS THEIR OWN criminal code.
What law stops it and how is it worded?
Is "if the doctor believes by his medical standard and ethics that the mother's life is at risk" in any of the state laws? No offense here but anyone that has worked in the criminal courts for 30 years knows that language damn sure will be in every state law nationwide.
And that language is abortion at will for those with cash.
And the real world allows some form of that language in any and all medical procedures be it the sniffles, heart or brain surgery for pregnant women.
So what laws do you propose, specifically, to ban abortion? And how is it worded around the medical lobby?

 

[daveman]

Your premise is that only liberals oppose making the govermment the determiner of who legally receives an abortion and who doesn't.
Most every conservative I know does not waht government involved in abortion.
Something about limiting the power of government which was practiced by the Founders.

I fully support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

But that right ends where another human being's body starts. And her baby is another human being.

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.

Her baby is a genetically distinct human being. Period.

 

[chikenwing]

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.



Did these people go to their 8th grade health classes?

All of these type of excuses,and thats what they are.They are used because if they actually used the right words like person,baby, human ,and other words like rights and innocent.

That would be admitting that they support the mass killing of innocent little people,and well you just can't have that.

 

[daveman]

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.



Did these people go to their 8th grade health classes?

All of these type of excuses,and thats what they are.They are used because if they actually used the right words like person,baby, human ,and other words like rights and innocent.

That would be admitting that they support the mass killing of innocent little people,and well you just can't have that.

That's why the left is utterly dependent on redefining words. They can't defend their ideas with standard definitions, because people won't go along with it.

 

[Shogun]

I disagree. How convienient is it for a women to go to a clinic, especially in a state like Kansas, with pickets out in front calling you a baby killer? Seems to me, and the women I've known intimately, the pill, IUD or diaphram is simpler, easier and damn effective.

Your comment is tantamount to Nancy Reagan's solution for drug abuse, just say no never worked and the result hasn't benefited anyone; how many billions have been wasted on the war on drugs; how many women became septic from back alley abortions? One is too many.

I'm not saying everyone must be abstinent if they don't want kids. I'm saying you're an idiot to think the abortion rate will drop by educating people on what everyone already knows.

I may be wrong asshole but I'm no idiot. If all you've got is name calling I'm done reasoning with you. Making a statement that "everyone already knows" without proof is an acknowledgement your argument is weak.

up until this point in this thread ALL YOU have been doing is name calling.

In this thread you've become the poster fetus for ad homs.

 

[Shogun]

Not certain if this has been said yet, since I only got about a quarter of the way through reading the posts in this thread....

BUT, why in the world are Pro-life posters agreeing with this measure when I had THOUGHT, that the argument of the Pro-life side was that "Life begins at conception", and any killing of an embryo or fetus in any stage of life, is murder?

So WHAT gives?

Are you all NOW agreeing with the pro-choice side, that this entity is not a human being until there is some vital sign of such....in the example of this bill....when the heart actually starts beating?


also:

oh, and those that mention heartbeat as a sign of life or not....a human being is not declared dead until their brain waves show them as dead....it has nothing to do with their heart beating on it's own or not....at least that is my understanding of it...??? (hmmm...of course when the heart stops, eventually the blood will stop flowing to the brain and ones brain waves will stop....?)

I won't answer for anyone else but, as the one who posted this thread, it's a matter of finding a compromise; as I mentioned in my second post in reference to my very first post at USMB.

 

[Shogun]

Not certain if this has been said yet, since I only got about a quarter of the way through reading the posts in this thread....

BUT, why in the world are Pro-life posters agreeing with this measure when I had THOUGHT, that the argument of the Pro-life side was that "Life begins at conception", and any killing of an embryo or fetus in any stage of life, is murder?

So WHAT gives?

Are you all NOW agreeing with the pro-choice side, that this entity is not a human being until there is some vital sign of such....in the example of this bill....when the heart actually starts beating?


also:

oh, and those that mention heartbeat as a sign of life or not....a human being is not declared dead until their brain waves show them as dead....it has nothing to do with their heart beating on it's own or not....at least that is my understanding of it...??? (hmmm...of course when the heart stops, eventually the blood will stop flowing to the brain and ones brain waves will stop....?)

ps, brain waves are in direct correlation with the cardiopulmonary system. Defibrillators aren't just fancy toys.

 

[Shogun]

Your premise is that only liberals oppose making the govermment the determiner of who legally receives an abortion and who doesn't.
Most every conservative I know does not waht government involved in abortion.
Something about limiting the power of government which was practiced by the Founders.

I fully support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

But that right ends where another human being's body starts. And her baby is another human being.

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.

A fetus is genetically distinct and, therefor, NOT part of "her body".

thanks for playing.

 

[Shogun]

In closing, I posted this thread because, again, I am reminded of my very first attempt to find common ground among a highly contention issue. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into yet another argument over abortion in general. However, the instant contention associated with this issue illustrates just how silly it is to believe that RvW is a done deal. If Prohibition wasn't sealed in stone then neither is RvW in an era of a myriad of birth control options and total disregard for responsible sexual promiscuity.


and, for fucks sake liberal... AS a liberal you make me cringe every time you leap onto your demagoguery rather than understand that you sit on a sinking boat. I'm embarrassed that I share a side of the political spectrum with you while your sole rebuttal is ad homs and bullshit arguments about incest... while totally ignoring the genetic FACTS sitting in your face. You act as if minorities and women in general are like fucking dogs who MUST instinctually fuck without consideration on the product of their decisions.


seriously, Wry Catcher, you sound like a guy who once got a hand job at a Lilith Fair concert and will now tow any line necessary to recreate the moment (even if it means you have to take that strap-on in the ass AGAIN). Stop being so hilariously hypocritical with the ad hom accusations, ok?

 

[Gadawg73]

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.



Did these people go to their 8th grade health classes?

All of these type of excuses,and thats what they are.They are used because if they actually used the right words like person,baby, human ,and other words like rights and innocent.

That would be admitting that they support the mass killing of innocent little people,and well you just can't have that.

That's why the left is utterly dependent on redefining words. They can't defend their ideas with standard definitions, because people won't go along with it.

I am not the left so once again your argument makes no sense.
I know of no one be they left, right, whatever that is pro abortion.
Sounds great as a sound bite on 30 second blitz.
I was voting Republican before you were born.

 

[Gadawg73]

I fully support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

But that right ends where another human being's body starts. And her baby is another human being.

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.

A fetus is genetically distinct and, therefor, NOT part of "her body".

thanks for playing.

So a fetus can live on it's own without the mother.
You folks are not very smart.

 

[Shogun]

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.

A fetus is genetically distinct and, therefor, NOT part of "her body".

thanks for playing.

So a fetus can live on it's own without the mother.
You folks are not very smart.

"living on its own" is not the standard by which genetics functions.

*snicker snicker*

Please, tell me more about this thing you call "smart".

 

[daveman]

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.



Did these people go to their 8th grade health classes?

All of these type of excuses,and thats what they are.They are used because if they actually used the right words like person,baby, human ,and other words like rights and innocent.

That would be admitting that they support the mass killing of innocent little people,and well you just can't have that.

That's why the left is utterly dependent on redefining words. They can't defend their ideas with standard definitions, because people won't go along with it.

I am not the left so once again your argument makes no sense.
I know of no one be they left, right, whatever that is pro abortion.
Sounds great as a sound bite on 30 second blitz.
I was voting Republican before you were born.

Was I talking to you, or about you? Hint: No.

 

[daveman]

The fetus is part of her body Dave.
You need something else to support because you are not supporting your own words.

A fetus is genetically distinct and, therefor, NOT part of "her body".

thanks for playing.

So a fetus can live on it's own without the mother.
You folks are not very smart.

Did I say that?

You're not so smart yourself.

 

[Shogun]

You'll have to forgive Gadawg73... She's still having problems acclimating to germ theory and Pasteurization.

 

[Gadawg73]

A fetus is genetically distinct and, therefor, NOT part of "her body".

thanks for playing.

So a fetus can live on it's own without the mother.
You folks are not very smart.

"living on its own" is not the standard by which genetics functions.

*snicker snicker*

Please, tell me more about this thing you call "smart".

Show me where genetics has anything to do with abortion and maybe your credibility will leap above zero.

 

[Gadawg73]

You'll have to forgive Gadawg73... She's still having problems acclimating to germ theory and Pasteurization.

You are once again wrong.
Imagine that.
I am a HE.