Sex Slave or Consenting Adult?

[geauxtohell]

They claim she was "mentally deficient". I would suggest that anyone who practices BDSM is "mentally deficient", wouldn't you?

No. Just kinky.

What does "mentally deficient" mean anyways?

 

[Madeline]

It was an open question.

But now we're on the same page...I think nothing good comes from a societal acceptance of sexual behavior that encourages and strengthens the urge to demean, humiliate and physically abuse of another human being.

No, we're not on the same page. My position is that nothing good comes from societal acceptance - or even tolerance - of HARMING another human being. Safe, sane, and consensual BDSM among adults harms no one.

And no one is asking you to accept anything. The practitioners just ask that you mind your own business. Disapprove as you see fit, but don't impose it on them.

Virtual kiddie porn harms no one.

Reconcile your positions.

If we knew that was true, then yes, legalize it. To the best of my knowledge, there is not much consensus about this among professionals.

 

[Madeline]

They claim she was "mentally deficient". I would suggest that anyone who practices BDSM is "mentally deficient", wouldn't you?

No. Just kinky.

What does "mentally deficient" mean anyways?

I'd assumed they meant retarded.

 

[asterism]

There is a lot of BDSM that is consensual. What comes into question is the fact that she started at 16 and was mentally deficient.

Seems like rape

Developmentally disabled adults can consent to sex, provided they have a basic understanding of it and its ramifications...say an IQ over 65. This chick chatted up customers in a strip bar. Trust me, that is functioning far above such a level.

The DA will have to prove she was coerced as a minor and never regained the psychological ability to withdraw that "coerced consent". It'd be a tough road to hoe, apart from the shock value on the jury -- which damned near guarantees a conviction.

That's where I think the prosecution is going past reasonable bounds. They're gunning for a conviction and trying to ick it up as much as possible, IMO.

Just like in the past when a black man accused of raping a white woman would almost always get convicted in some areas. "Look at the scary negro...."

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'd be okay with outlawing amputation and bone breaking. I'm not sure you can do either one without a grave risk of death...but even if, I still think they are so outre', 99% of all other adult consensual sexual behavior would be legal.

The one that gives me the most pause is breath play. Any cop and most military types prolly know how to cause unconsciousness but not death -- I'd imagine they all know at least how to do a choke hold. Most BDSM-related deaths resulting in homicide charges arise from breath play of one sort or another....and I hear teens are getting into this as well.

I think people should have to demonstrate aptitude at both the breath play and the revival, if one is needed, or else face homicide charges if the bottom dies, regardless of the bottom's consent.

And I dun think minors should be doing this AT ALL.

I agree on breath play, actually. My club recently had a debate about whether or not to allow it on the premises, and came down on the side of a rule prohibiting "any play to intentionally cause unconsciousness" and "no carotid artery play".

So no grabbing the neck? (Sorry I've never heard of breath play or the carotid artery, human anatomy never interested me).

No, just grabbing someone by the neck gently enough to not completely obstruct air or blood flow is okay. Strangleholds cause unconsciousness not just by cutting off all air, but also by cutting off the flow of blood through the carotid artery. If it's just an "I'm in charge here" sort of thing, that's acceptable.

 

[Missourian]

"This is a descriptive summary of the experiences of a sample of women who have been consensually involved with criminal sexual sadists. The paper details the physical, sexual, and psychological abuse to which the women were subject as well as the process by which they were transformed from independent, competent woman to the compliant appendages of their criminally active partners. Similarities in the sexual sadist's criminal and consensual sexual activities as they reflect a specific paraphilic preference are discussed."

Seven women have been interviewed thus far by one of the authors, a special agent with the Behavioral Sciences Unit of the FBI. The women came to the awareness of the authors primarily through the FBI's involvement in the investigation or prosecution of their partners' crimes. The sample is obviously not random but represents an exploratory inquiry into the interpersonal exploitation that characterises the intimate relationships of certain identified sexual sadists.

Three of the women were married to sexual sadists and their marriages ranged in length from 2 to 13 years. The remaining four women dated sadists exclusively for periods ranging from 3 months to 18 months. All were sadistically victimised by the men they were involved with. An eighth woman who also dated a sadist when they were both teenagers was interviewed; although they engaged in intercourse, she reported no sexual, physical or psychological abuse. This man was responsible for the deaths of more than 20 women within 11 years of their relationship.

As children, four had been sexually abused, two physically abused, and six psychologically abused. One reported that she had been sexually abused by two older sisters and an older brother.

All but one of the women were sexually naive at the time of meeting the sadists, even though five had previously been married. None of the women reported prior knowledge of sadomasochism before meeting the sadists.

All the women had low self-esteem and readily admitted that they lacked confidence in themselves. One woman, who was quite attractive, advised that one of the reasons she succumbed to the seduction of the sadist was that she could not believe that he found her physically attractive.

In every instance, the women came from middle to upper-middle class backgrounds, and none thought they had been economically deprived as a child. With no exceptions, the women were non aggressive, remorseful and guilt-ridden. They berated themselves for ''being so stupid' and could not accept the fact that they had been manipulated to such a degree by the men.

With one exception, the women were professionally successful at the time they became involved with the men. *Table 1* contrasts the occupational status of the women and the sadists with whom they were involved.


The abuse

Physical abuse

All the women suffered physical abuse during their relationship with the sadists. They reported being frequently beaten with fists and other blunt objects. One woman reported that her husband called his arms 'guns' and would periodically give her 'body shots' or blows to the chest and stomach. Another woman advised that here boyfriend keep her in captivity for 3 days during which he bound her from head to feet in adhesive tape. Hourly, he would stand her upright and strike her viciously in the body, knocking her over. Four of the women suffered broken bones at the hands of their 'loved ones'.

Five of the women were whipped with leather whips, ropes or belts. One respondent reported that her abuser carefully weaved a leather whip and used it on her until it became so badly frayed that he resorted to a belt for her beatings. Both the condition of the whip and photographic evidence of her trauma validated her assertion. Another woman was suspended by the wrists and whipped with a belt periodically over a number of years.

Four of the women were burned with matches, cigarettes or lighters. In each instance, the injuries were located in areas normally covered by clothing so as to preclude inquiries from associates of the women. Biting, as a means of physical abuse, was reported by all of the women. Painful clamping devices were used on the nipples and labia of five of the respondents. One woman advised that her boyfriend wanted to place an earring though her labia but he could not find "one he liked".

FBI USA - The Disturbed Mind - Compliant Victims of the Sexual Sadist - Karla Homolka

Y'all good with this?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do you feel the same way about virtual kiddie porn?

Are you talking about porn made with real actors and age-regression software?

I think he means drawings/animations of kids being screwed.

I don't think they cause pedophilia, so I don't want them to be illegal.

I don't think they cause it, but I do think they strengthen an urge that's already near-impossible to control without drugs, if what psychiatrists say is true. It's common knowledge that the more you get of something that brings sexual pleasure, the more you want it.

 

[Madeline]

I agree with you there. That's why I don't think this girl may have a case. But I still think they are all fucking sickos and deserve each other.

Taboo Magazine is not illegal. But I would hope that its contributors and sibscribers are not teaching school children.

I think they would be able to tell what is and isn't appropriate for children.

I agree and while we are on the subject, a couple's sex life (no matter how outre') should not be admissible in a custody hearing unless there is some allegation it ever involved the kids. This notion that people with more interesting sex lives are moral degenerates and unsafe around children is wrong and stupid.

Puritans are not morally superior to libertines with values and standards of conduct -- they are just different.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It was an open question.

But now we're on the same page...I think nothing good comes from a societal acceptance of sexual behavior that encourages and strengthens the urge to demean, humiliate and physically abuse of another human being.

"Social acceptance" and "illegality" are two different issues. You are free to disapprove, and to express that disapproval. No one is trying to alter your personal tastes. I would like to see laws changed so that your community could not prosecute criminally in the absence of a risk of severe harm or death.

Apparently, this is where we disagree.

You'll have to link to any post of mine that mentions in any way shape or form criminalization.

In fact, I think I posted that these folks have the right as consenting adults to engage in this sexual behavior.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/138511-sex-slave-or-consenting-adult-2.html#post2883844

What I have contended from my first post is that they have underlying psychological issues that drive these behaviors.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/138511-sex-slave-or-consenting-adult.html#post2883316

What I have contended from the beginning is that EVERYONE has underlying psychological issues in life that drive their behaviors. It's all a matter of how healthy and functional your method of dealing with it is.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I agree with you there. That's why I don't think this girl may have a case. But I still think they are all fucking sickos and deserve each other.

Taboo Magazine is not illegal. But I would hope that its contributors and sibscribers are not teaching school children.

I'm not familiar with Taboo Magazine. Why don't you want them teaching children?

 

[Missourian]

Sexual abuse
All the women were sexually abused by the men. Three victims were forcibly penetrated by large foreign objects. One subject used a 12 cell flashlight and also a long cylindrical piece of wood. Almost invariably these items were inserted anally, so as to cause maximal suffering.


Six of the women reported anal intercourse to be their sadistic partner's preferred mode of sexual release. Forced felatio was also reported by all seven women, and these same women reported that the sadists enjoyed ejaculating on their bodies, primarily their face or mouth.


Two of the seven women advised that they had been urinated on, and one reported being required to administer enemas to herself. Three of the women were forced to have sex with others; two were raped by friends of the sadists, and one was forced to engage in sexual acts with another woman who had been kidnapped by her husband.


All seven of the respondents agreed that the men were sexually insatiable. The constant demand for sexual activities took precedence over all other activities.
When asked to describe the worst sexual abuse suffered, one woman told being hung by her wrists and whipped to the point of unconsciousness, explaining that this degree of suffering and humiliation enabled her partner to become sexually aroused for vaginal intercourse. During the whippings she was not allowed to cry, scream or plead.

This is what you are defending.

This was "consensual".

FBI USA - The Disturbed Mind - Compliant Victims of the Sexual Sadist - Karla Homolka

 

[Madeline]

There is a lot of BDSM that is consensual. What comes into question is the fact that she started at 16 and was mentally deficient.

Seems like rape

Developmentally disabled adults can consent to sex, provided they have a basic understanding of it and its ramifications...say an IQ over 65. This chick chatted up customers in a strip bar. Trust me, that is functioning far above such a level.

The DA will have to prove she was coerced as a minor and never regained the psychological ability to withdraw that "coerced consent". It'd be a tough road to hoe, apart from the shock value on the jury -- which damned near guarantees a conviction.

That's where I think the prosecution is going past reasonable bounds. They're gunning for a conviction and trying to ick it up as much as possible, IMO.

Just like in the past when a black man accused of raping a white woman would almost always get convicted in some areas. "Look at the scary negro...."

The BDSM card has cost many a person their children, their property and their liberty in an entirely wrongful manner.

 

[Madeline]

Sexual abuse
All the women were sexually abused by the men. Three victims were forcibly penetrated by large foreign objects. One subject used a 12 cell flashlight and also a long cylindrical piece of wood. Almost invariably these items were inserted anally, so as to cause maximal suffering.


Six of the women reported anal intercourse to be their sadistic partner's preferred mode of sexual release. Forced felatio was also reported by all seven women, and these same women reported that the sadists enjoyed ejaculating on their bodies, primarily their face or mouth.


Two of the seven women advised that they had been urinated on, and one reported being required to administer enemas to herself. Three of the women were forced to have sex with others; two were raped by friends of the sadists, and one was forced to engage in sexual acts with another woman who had been kidnapped by her husband.


All seven of the respondents agreed that the men were sexually insatiable. The constant demand for sexual activities took precedence over all other activities.
When asked to describe the worst sexual abuse suffered, one woman told being hung by her wrists and whipped to the point of unconsciousness, explaining that this degree of suffering and humiliation enabled her partner to become sexually aroused for vaginal intercourse. During the whippings she was not allowed to cry, scream or plead.

This is what you are defending.

This was "consensual".

FBI USA - The Disturbed Mind - Compliant Victims of the Sexual Sadist - Karla Homolka

Are you unable to distinquish between "degrees", Missourian? Most of the acts you linked to are severely harmful; certainly any form of anal sex involving gross tearing is.

How is this even remotely comparable to cross-dressing or doggie-play?

 

[Cecilie1200]

missouri did you see where i said consenting adults...

I did...but you cannot use the argument for one behavior and dismiss it for the other.

If a pedophile is sick because of his (or her) aberrant sexual desires and virtual porn will only encourage and strengthen his urges (which I believe is true) then shouldn't the same holds true of a Dominants aberrant sexual urges. Is what the Dom real wants to dominate the willing?

I don't buy that either will cause crime for a second. I think the entire premise that virtual depictions of crime will cause real crime is ludicrous.

Those in BDSM know or should know that what they are doing to their partners is not appropriate for the unwilling in the same sense that sex with the unwilling isn't acceptable.
So it'd be like saying swingers club or casual sex encourage rape.

People aren't that stupid.

They don't encourage rape, but they DO encourage the desire for BDSM or swinging or casual sex. Any shrink or cop will tell you that once you already have an urge for rape or pedophilia, indulging it in any way can lead to escalation.

 

[Missourian]

Sexual abuse
All the women were sexually abused by the men. Three victims were forcibly penetrated by large foreign objects. One subject used a 12 cell flashlight and also a long cylindrical piece of wood. Almost invariably these items were inserted anally, so as to cause maximal suffering.


Six of the women reported anal intercourse to be their sadistic partner's preferred mode of sexual release. Forced felatio was also reported by all seven women, and these same women reported that the sadists enjoyed ejaculating on their bodies, primarily their face or mouth.


Two of the seven women advised that they had been urinated on, and one reported being required to administer enemas to herself. Three of the women were forced to have sex with others; two were raped by friends of the sadists, and one was forced to engage in sexual acts with another woman who had been kidnapped by her husband.


All seven of the respondents agreed that the men were sexually insatiable. The constant demand for sexual activities took precedence over all other activities.
When asked to describe the worst sexual abuse suffered, one woman told being hung by her wrists and whipped to the point of unconsciousness, explaining that this degree of suffering and humiliation enabled her partner to become sexually aroused for vaginal intercourse. During the whippings she was not allowed to cry, scream or plead.

This is what you are defending.

This was "consensual".

FBI USA - The Disturbed Mind - Compliant Victims of the Sexual Sadist - Karla Homolka

Are you unable to distinquish between "degrees", Missourian? Most of the acts you linked to are severely harmful; certainly any form of anal sex involving gross tearing is.

How is this even remotely comparable to cross-dressing or doggie-play?

Ring Ring! Go back to the OP. This is what you are defending in this thread.

BONDAGE & DISCIPLINE, SADO-MASOCHISM.

B.D.S.M.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Given that this is the internet I find that surprising. Then again I never heard of the things you were talking about.

Visual porn has zero appeal for me. True story....I have never seen 'net porn, except by accident.

What other porn is there besides visual? Do you just listen to people having sex and go for an eargasm?

Actually, yes. Studies show that women are much more aroused aurally than they are visually (ie. they are turned on more by what they hear). That's why men who do the "strong, silent" thing are going the wrong way.

There's also written porn, like Penthouse Forum.

 

[Father Time]

Visual porn has zero appeal for me. True story....I have never seen 'net porn, except by accident.

What other porn is there besides visual? Do you just listen to people having sex and go for an eargasm?

Actually, yes. Studies show that women are much more aroused aurally than they are visually (ie. they are turned on more by what they hear). That's why men who do the "strong, silent" thing are going the wrong way.

There's also written porn, like Penthouse Forum.

I can't believe I forgot about that, I do enjoy reading those stories.

 

[Madeline]

This is what you are defending.

This was "consensual".

FBI USA - The Disturbed Mind - Compliant Victims of the Sexual Sadist - Karla Homolka

Are you unable to distinquish between "degrees", Missourian? Most of the acts you linked to are severely harmful; certainly any form of anal sex involving gross tearing is.

How is this even remotely comparable to cross-dressing or doggie-play?

Ring Ring! Go back to the OP. This is what you are defending in this thread.

BONDAGE & DISCIPLINE, SADO-MASOCHISM! BDSM.

I have re-read the article and do not see one act described that should be per se illegal IMO. This is the only allegation that concerned me:

Dr. Keely Kolmes, a San Francisco-based psychologist who sees patients who practice BDSM, said that many of the acts listed in the indictment can be part of consensual activities. But others might indicate Bagley was an abuser, such as allegations that he shot animals the woman cared about to prove he could kill her and that he refused to stop immediately when the woman used a "safe word."

Mind telling me what specifically you're concerned over?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'd put the bar far further out, Missourian. Risk of death would be my benchmark; I would be willing to criminalize very few consensual behaviors between adults that do not involve this. Take scarification and blood play; the fact is, without one party being infected, blood play can be quite safe. I doubt you'd find any reported death in the US attributable to it. Does that mean I approve? Of course not...but neither do I approve of any other extreme body modification and the whole vampire thingie leaves me cold.

I just don't see why my personal sexual appetites should dictate the outer limits of anyone else's behavior.

Most people in the community draw the line at "lasting physical harm". Basically, if it's going to involve a trip to the doctor, they avoid it.

Taking that statement literally would not be wise, though. By that literal definition, I've caused "lasting physical harm" that certainly involved multiple trips "to the doctor" just from having sex with my wife.

Okay, what the hell are YOU doing in the bedroom? Take the spikes off the strap-on, put down that gerbil, and back away slowly.

 

[Samson]

Most people in the community draw the line at "lasting physical harm". Basically, if it's going to involve a trip to the doctor, they avoid it.

Taking that statement literally would not be wise, though. By that literal definition, I've caused "lasting physical harm" that certainly involved multiple trips "to the doctor" just from having sex with my wife.

Okay, what the hell are YOU doing in the bedroom? Take the spikes off the strap-on, put down that gerbil, and back away slowly.

Maybe he meant conception, and the normal, but painful course of delivery.