‘Serious Success in Iraq Is Not Being Recognised’

[Shogun]

and a guy who didn't vote for this bullshit war.

Empty projections are just wishful thinking. I know it chaffes you that America is waking up to that fact but the heyday of W04 is over.

Ill ask again, would you like to predict anything you can stand behind when it is brought up in 6 months and during the primaries? Anything at all about the stability of Iraq? Maybe stand up and say that the streets of baghdad will be peacful and able to be walked on without military escort?

You know.. ignoring stuff like:

2007 now the deadliest year for U.S. troops in Iraq
The grim record came despite lower death rates in recent months, which were not enough to offset death tolls that topped 100 during three months in the spring.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/06/iraq.main/index.html


Hell, I'll go on the record and say I HOPE THAT IM WRONG AND THAT IRAQ BLOSSOMS INTOP A BASTION OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY BY APRIL. I can take being wrongif the killings stop.


Are you man enough to make a similar claim which we can all bring up in 6 months?

 

[red states rule]

and a guy who didn't vote for this bullshit war.

Empty projections are just wishful thinking. I know it chaffes you that America is waking up to that fact but the heyday of W04 is over.

Ill ask again, would you like to predict anything you can stand behind when it is brought up in 6 months and during the primaries? Anything at all about the stability of Iraq? Maybe stand up and say that the streets of baghdad will be peacful and able to be walked on without military escort?

You know.. ignoring stuff like:

2007 now the deadliest year for U.S. troops in Iraq
The grim record came despite lower death rates in recent months, which were not enough to offset death tolls that topped 100 during three months in the spring.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/06/iraq.main/index.html


Hell, I'll go on the record and say I HOPE THAT IM WRONG AND THAT IRAQ BLOSSOMS INTOP A BASTION OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY BY APRIL. I can take being wrongif the killings stop.


Are you man enough to make a similar claim which we can all bring up in 6 months?

Was Obama in office at that time? He is another tax and spend lib who would rather appease then fight

A new poll shows the public is starting to support the war. The recent succes and the defeatest BS from the left and starting to take a toll on the Dems

 

[Shogun]

indeed, christian.. people who would rather have a conversation than kill are just terrible people, arent they?

and are you REALLY pointing a finger at tax and spend considering W's propensity to BORROW and spend?


by all means.. don't be ambiguous.. POST the survey! If you've got some evidence then drop that bad boy, dude.



and no, he wasn't there to vote for the war. Which makes him fresh blood. Which is a benefit of his. I told you that I'd scrap those who voted for war on Bushaganda. This is what consistency looks like.

 

[red states rule]

indeed, christian.. people who would rather have a conversation than kill are just terrible people, arent they?

and are you REALLY pointing a finger at tax and spend considering W's propensity to BORROW and spend?


by all means.. don't be ambiguous.. POST the survey! If you've got some evidence then drop that bad boy, dude.



and no, he wasn't there to vote for the war. Which makes him fresh blood. Which is a benefit of his. I told you that I'd scrap those who voted for war on Bushaganda. This is what consistency looks like.

I have - but you must have missed it

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/ten_months_of_opinion_change_o.php

Yea, Dms want a tax hike of over $1 trillion dollars and how much in new spending? Obama wants governemtn run healthcare and how many more handouts paid for by taxpayers

We saw how talking to terrorists worked under Clinton (we were hit 5 times by terrorists where Amercians were killed) and Pres Peanut Carter (US hostages held for 444 days)

 

[Shogun]

Through the spring, conservatives and Republican supporters of President Bush argued for "giving the surge a chance". This rhetoric shifted in the summer to claims that "the surge has worked". Meanwhile Democrats and liberals pushed for a timetable for withdrawal through the spring and early summer. Very few citizens have a clear idea of any quantitative measures of how the war is "actually" going. Even trends in American deaths are rarely comprehensively presented in news reports (though sometimes mentioned in passing as "factoids".) And even among supporters of the war claims of "success of the surge" were rarely supported by direct evidence. (An exception to the lack of evidence was a widely debated op-ed piece in the New York Times by Kenneth Pollack and Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution on July 30. O'Hanlon has produced the comprehensive "Iraq Index" at Brookings, an invaluable compilation of measurable trends in the war. Ironically, the op-ed piece was based on "anecdotes" from a visit to Iraq rather than quantitative measures.)

Let's be clear: the trend estimate is that only 38% think the war is going well, while 58% say it is not going well. The balance remains on the pessimistic side and by a 20 point margin. What I am talking about is the change in trend and the shift of marginal opinion. But that is a telling indicator. On election day 2 years ago today, the partisan war for public opinion seemed to have decisively shifted to the Democratic view. The notion that there was nothing the White House could do to reverse their public losses of support was widespread. But the last 10 months show that indeed there was something that could change and this change is important.

from YOUR link, dude...


hey, did you notice that the UPTURN you are bragging about is still lower than his ratings at election time in 06? yea, i'd brag about that too!

 

[red states rule]

Through the spring, conservatives and Republican supporters of President Bush argued for "giving the surge a chance". This rhetoric shifted in the summer to claims that "the surge has worked". Meanwhile Democrats and liberals pushed for a timetable for withdrawal through the spring and early summer. Very few citizens have a clear idea of any quantitative measures of how the war is "actually" going. Even trends in American deaths are rarely comprehensively presented in news reports (though sometimes mentioned in passing as "factoids".) And even among supporters of the war claims of "success of the surge" were rarely supported by direct evidence. (An exception to the lack of evidence was a widely debated op-ed piece in the New York Times by Kenneth Pollack and Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution on July 30. O'Hanlon has produced the comprehensive "Iraq Index" at Brookings, an invaluable compilation of measurable trends in the war. Ironically, the op-ed piece was based on "anecdotes" from a visit to Iraq rather than quantitative measures.)

Let's be clear: the trend estimate is that only 38% think the war is going well, while 58% say it is not going well. The balance remains on the pessimistic side and by a 20 point margin. What I am talking about is the change in trend and the shift of marginal opinion. But that is a telling indicator. On election day 2 years ago today, the partisan war for public opinion seemed to have decisively shifted to the Democratic view. The notion that there was nothing the White House could do to reverse their public losses of support was widespread. But the last 10 months show that indeed there was something that could change and this change is important.

from YOUR link, dude...


hey, did you notice that the UPTURN you are bragging about is still lower than his ratings at election time in 06? yea, i'd brag about that too!

But it is starting to go up - that is the point of the post and the poll, Despite all the defeatest and doom and gloom BS coming from the left

 

[Shogun]

Yea, Dms want a tax hike of over $1 trillion dollars and how much in new spending? Obama wants governemtn run healthcare and how many more handouts paid for by taxpayers

We saw how talking to terrorists worked under Clinton (we were hit 5 times by terrorists where Amercians were killed) and Pres Peanut Carter (US hostages held for 444 days)

indeed, christian... tell me how evil it is to push for health care for everyone.. Perhaps Obama can call it the fishes and loaves program...


Again, don't criticize anyone when your BORROW AND SPEND pony gave us a deficit after being given a surplus.


Yes, hostages were saved instead of killed. One might think that a christian would appriciate that. blaming 9/11 on clinton's effort to find peace in palestine and israel won't work on this boat, dude. Your posts belay why your claim to christianity is a fucking joke. Who Would JEsus Kill, dude?

 

[Shogun]

But it is starting to go up - that is the point of the post and the poll, Despite all the defeatest and doom and gloom BS coming from the left

do you want to stand behind that prediction so when I bring it up in 6 months I can remind you of a few things? is THIS tiny little "less than during 06 elections" upswing what you want to stand behind as long term indication of Iraq?


Just say the word and Ill bookmark this page and we can see which of us is totally full of shit!

 

[red states rule]

indeed, christian... tell me how evil it is to push for health care for everyone.. Perhaps Obama can call it the fishes and loaves program...


Again, don't criticize anyone when your BORROW AND SPEND pony gave us a deficit after being given a surplus.


Yes, hostages were saved instead of killed. One might think that a christian would appriciate that. blaming 9/11 on clinton's effort to find peace in palestine and israel won't work on this boat, dude. Your posts belay why your claim to christianity is a fucking joke. Who Would JEsus Kill, dude?

Where in the US Constitition does it say the government will provide health care. We all know how well government run programs operate. We also see how well government run health care is doing in countries where it is tried

Funny how the left brings uop Jesus when it fits their aganda, but they also want to tremove all references of God from the public view because it may offend some non Christian

Sure, libs have proven over and opver how appeasing terrorists work. it leads to more attacks and more deaths

 

[red states rule]

do you want to stand behind that prediction so when I bring it up in 6 months I can remind you of a few things? is THIS tiny little "less than during 06 elections" upswing what you want to stand behind as long term indication of Iraq?


Just say the word and Ill bookmark this page and we can see which of us is totally full of shit!

I am well aware how the left wnats bad news from Iraq. There reaction to the good news proves they do not want the Us to win in Iraq

 

[Shogun]

Where in the US Constitition does it say the government will provide health care. We all know how well government run programs operate. We also see how well government run health care is doing in countries where it is tried

Funny how the left brings uop Jesus when it fits their aganda, but they also want to tremove all references of God from the public view because it may offend some non Christian

Sure, libs have proven over and opver how appeasing terrorists work. it leads to more attacks and more deaths

where does it day to provide fire protection? Indeed, we CAN see how a well run governemnt program benefits the nation. The USPS is a good example. So is every police and fire district in America. No, private contractor police would be about as beneficial as the mercs we seemed to have hired in Iraq.

Indeed, funny how you FORGET your moral line when it's conveninet. If you don't like being held accountable for your dogma then perhaps you should not wave it around so violently when convenient. Don't blame me if your actions and behaviours run opposite to the shit you'd otherwise be walking behind around like a drum major in a parade.

It's your fairweather christianity that makes it clear that your dogma should not be in bed with our government. The testament of your political musings convey as much.


Do you REALLY want to compare whose got more deaths in their pocket, my collateral damage?

 

[Shogun]

I am well aware how the left wnats bad news from Iraq. There reaction to the good news proves they do not want the Us to win in Iraq

No, my post proves that I have the BALLS to challenge you to stand behind something beyond a talking point and a generalized accusation.


Anytime you want to grow a pair let me know. Your shit talking is not impressive. Running away from this challenge proves that YOU don't want to win in iraq so much as you simply want to talk shit on a lefty. If you have the balls and conviction of your posts you would have no problem putting your name on something that you, supposedly, think indicates future success. Calling me names won't make your evasion of such any less vaginal than it already is.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

where does it day to provide fire protection? Indeed, we CAN see how a well run governemnt program benefits the nation. The USPS is a good example. So is every police and fire district in America. No, private contractor police would be about as beneficial as the mercs we seemed to have hired in Iraq.

Indeed, funny how you FORGET your moral line when it's conveninet. If you don't like being held accountable for your dogma then perhaps you should not wave it around so violently when convenient. Don't blame me if your actions and behaviours run opposite to the shit you'd otherwise be walking behind around like a drum major in a parade.

It's your fairweather christianity that makes it clear that your dogma should not be in bed with our government. The testament of your political musings convey as much.


Do you REALLY want to compare whose got more deaths in their pocket, my collateral damage?

None of those are federal programs. What the States and local communities do is their own business and depends on their own State Constitutions.

The Marshal Service exists legally to ensure transfer of prisoners between States and Federal Government and is covered by the powers granted the Government. Same with the Secret Service and all the other Agencies that provide some type of FEDERAL Law enforcement. The Park service also exists within the frame work of the Constitution as do the fire fighting teams maintained by said service.

 

[Shogun]

The USPS is a state level organization, eh? Criminal offenses are not federal crimes, eh?


oook.

Where is the postal service in the constitution?

Where is FEMA in the constitution?

Praytell, would you RATHER our local police forces be private organizations who trade quality for profit?

 

[Kid Pickle]

indeed, christian.. people who would rather have a conversation than kill are just terrible people, arent they?

How would you propose we talk to people who murder, torture, and rape? How many they are allowed to kill? What days of the week they can torture? Which women they can rape? People who demonstrate disdain for human life forfiet thier right to be members of the human race, as they hold no value for their life. Such as these cannot be reasoned with, they can only be crushed in to dust so that they cannot threaten another innocent person. Those who wish to have a friendly discussion with evil men hoping to persuade them to be more civilized are fools who only enable more bloodshed.

 

[Kid Pickle]

hitler was an actual threat...


you know... no phantom WMDs needed to convey an ACTUAL threat...

someday you might figure out the difference before tossing out easily returned jabs..

It is well known that Saddam Hussein had designs on being THE power in the middle east, even if it mean conquering it militarily. We know he used chemical weapons on his own people. We know he imprisoned, tortured, and executed people for various unjust reasons. Every legitimate intelligence agency said he was in possesion of WMD's, including Russia and France. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that these were there and it is extremely suspicious that they were suddenly gone as soon as U.S. troops arrived on the scene. I find it intellectually dishonest not to consider the possiblility of these weapons being smuggled out during the stalling tactics that led up to the invasion. Instead it is convenient to those who simply disagree with the war and Bush in general to say, "Whoops, they weren't there. Bush musta lied. Yep!" Ridiculous.

The point is, in the here and now, we are fighting the enemies of the United States and civilized peoples everywhere in Iraq. They are Al Qaida. They want Iraq and its oil wealth for thier puposes. They want to kill as many Americans as possible to do it as horribly as possible so that we will be afraid to oppose them in the future. They think we are weak and we will win no friends if we abandon Iraq to them. By fighting to the finish, we will show that we are truly commited to the ideals we profess, not just decadent slobs who are afraid of blood.

 

[maineman]

How would you propose we talk to people who murder, torture, and rape? How many they are allowed to kill? What days of the week they can torture? Which women they can rape? People who demonstrate disdain for human life forfiet thier right to be members of the human race, as they hold no value for their life. Such as these cannot be reasoned with, they can only be crushed in to dust so that they cannot threaten another innocent person. Those who wish to have a friendly discussion with evil men hoping to persuade them to be more civilized are fools who only enable more bloodshed.

do you propose crushing the relatives too? their wives? kids?

if you want to somehow someway convince the muslims of the world that it would be better for everyone if they didn't kill us...and the method you chose to use to make that point is to kill muslims, then you need to be prepared to kill them all.

and if you realize that is what you need to do, why not start with those muslims who are living here?

 

[Kid Pickle]

do you propose crushing the relatives too? their wives? kids?

if you want to somehow someway convince the muslims of the world that it would be better for everyone if they didn't kill us...and the method you chose to use to make that point is to kill muslims, then you need to be prepared to kill them all.

and if you realize that is what you need to do, why not start with those muslims who are living here?

I think it is important to convey the message to muslims that their religion and society are being hijacked by those with a fascist ideology. I do not hold that all muslims are murderous thugs. Most muslims are like most people, they just want to live their lives, make a living, raise thier children, etc. Y'know life, liberty, property, the pursuit of happiness. To assume that the people of Iraq or anywhere would prefer an externally oppressive existance devoid of the ability to seek ones self-interest shows a lack of understanding of human nature. The difficulty lies in convincing people who have been enslaved for generations that they are free, what that means, and how to preserve that.

You identify the animals, you find them, you kill them and all who support them until they stop fighting. It is WAR and sometimes innocent people are hurt and killed. It cannot be avoided, only minimized, and it is never the objective. We have excellent surgical capabilities and can be deadly to the enemy with a minimum of collateral damage to life and property.

War isn't pretty, but is a condition of the world we live in and it is sometimes a necessity. It can be noble, if done for the right reasons and effectively.

I do have my doubts on the success of a democratic nation being created from an outside force rather than an uprising of the people, but I feel that we are justified being there and that we must be successful now that we are engaged with a sworn enemy of freedom and civilization.

 

[Shogun]

It is well known that Saddam Hussein had designs on being THE power in the middle east, even if it mean conquering it militarily. We know he used chemical weapons on his own people. We know he imprisoned, tortured, and executed people for various unjust reasons. Every legitimate intelligence agency said he was in possesion of WMD's, including Russia and France. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that these were there and it is extremely suspicious that they were suddenly gone as soon as U.S. troops arrived on the scene. I find it intellectually dishonest not to consider the possiblility of these weapons being smuggled out during the stalling tactics that led up to the invasion. Instead it is convenient to those who simply disagree with the war and Bush in general to say, "Whoops, they weren't there. Bush musta lied. Yep!" Ridiculous.

The point is, in the here and now, we are fighting the enemies of the United States and civilized peoples everywhere in Iraq. They are Al Qaida. They want Iraq and its oil wealth for thier puposes. They want to kill as many Americans as possible to do it as horribly as possible so that we will be afraid to oppose them in the future. They think we are weak and we will win no friends if we abandon Iraq to them. By fighting to the finish, we will show that we are truly commited to the ideals we profess, not just decadent slobs who are afraid of blood.

Well, I'm glad your logic isn't the standard by which our domestic criminal legal system functions. If you've got proof then skin that smokestack. Otherwise, it's not my fault that you've got egg on your face over sat images of mobile chem labs that turned out to be an international joke. They, THey, THEY, they, THEY.. Do you ever get the feeling that there might not be a monster under your bed after all? You rely on some fabricated bullshit as an excuse to invade and then insist that alqueda is PERSONALLY going to come door to door killing grannies in ohio. If saddam was a piece of shit it certainly didn't change from when we SOLD him the chems to kill the kurds and war with Iran. That sure as hell doesn't lump him into a connection with OBL and 9/11... but, it is fun to see just how many are left wandering the countryside convinced of that connection...

Asserting our dominance in the M.E. was NEVER a selling point to the war. Pissing out some territory was NEVER a reason to invade. Insisting that those PHANTOM WMDs are just burries in the sand or shipped to OUR NEXT WAR DU JOUR won't wash your hands clean, Pontius.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Yes, libs are pissed the US military is winning in Iraq. It must be depressing not reading about US troop deaths, car bombs, and civilians being slaughtered

The left have invested their political future in the US losing in Iraq, and now the US military screws those plans up by WINNING the war

A couple of million dead and maimed, 4 million refugees, a COMPLETELY INNOCENT country bombed back to the Stone Age, and DU turning its future generations into a radioactive freak show, is “WINNING?”

Naturally an ignorant piece of narcissistic trailer trash such as you wouldn't understand the term "Pyrrhic victory."

King Pyrrhus of Epirus, after winning a battle against the Romans, replied to one of his boastful generals, "Another win like this and we are undone!"

Another preposterously protracted victory against such piss weak opposition will see the total collapse of the front running, financial fragile American Empire.

How you ever imagined you could whup the Russians is a mystery.

In future, leave too-tough nuts like pre-devastated Iraq to starve to death from your criminal "sanctions." Stick to coral outcrops in the Caribbean, like Grenada and Haiti, that America can (just) handle!

If I were a citizen of one the next Muslim nations in line for a dose of the customarily "compassionate" dose of American emancipation that Iraq got, I’d demand to know what methods and means my jingoistic, God channelling, i.e. George Bush-like leaders had in mind to retaliate against the demonstrably criminal Americans.

Indeed, if I were an irksome Iranian or a sub-human Syrian, I’d be insisting they stage an American style “pre-emptive strike” against the fascistic US, before they utterly fucked us too!