Serious political questions

[Wry Catcher]

1) Nothing.
2) Republicans are either registered members of the Republican Party or vote consistently Republican, more or less.

There is no lockstep agreement. Instead there is a general sense that government intrudes too much into people's lives and takes too money in taxes. When you get into specific issues agreement tends to deteriorate.

Close the Thread

Frank, my intent was not to give you a headache. Sorry, take two and watch cartoons are something.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It appears that those who identify as conservatives are now divided. Some remain as members of the Republican Party, others identify as Libertarians or conservatives and many simply state they are independent.
As a registered Democrat, moderate on some, liberal on other issues, I understand one party is not the be all end all for most of us. Democrats are used to in-fighting, and the joke that getting Democrats to agree is akin to herding cats is spot on.
Hence, my questions:
1) On what do all conservatives agree?
2) What issues differentiate a Republican from an independent or a Libertarian?

Here is one Conservative's answer to part one above:

1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).


3) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Conservatives believe in choice of healthcare, education, religion, and various other areas. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

4) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

5) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it.. Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

6) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

7) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and“Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

8) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

Hey political chick. I think it would be easy to find conservatives and liberals who disagree with being pigeon-holed that way. I think it highly disengenious to have a conservative define what is and what is not "a liberal" just as it is dishonest to have a liberal define what a conservative is or is not.

Sounds more like your are not willing to put the time and thought into a critique on the other side, either by disagreement with specifics above, or by giving a liberal counterargument.

 

[Oldandtired]

Hoffman said, "Hoffman and his backers said Scozzafava was too liberal to truly represent the Republican party, specifically noting her support of abortion rights and same-sex marriage."

The Associated Press: Republican in NY House race suspends campaign

So can someone be a "true" Republican with these views? Are these the litmus test? Or is it simply about spending? I've heard different answers.

Please notice the article you cited...it is a typical AP article that did exactly as it was designed to do....have you bnelieve one thing when in fact it is another.
Look at the article. There is no quote of what was said in regard to her views on abortion and marriage...
But what DID they quote? See it at the end of the article.
The "quote" is exactly what we are saying...yet you took the "generalization" and took it as fact.
Interesting..and by no means your fault....but maybe NOW you will see what we mean when we say the media has a way to have you think one thing when in fact it is another...yet they care not outright lying.
Very interesting.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Hoffman should not have been quoted? Are you sayiong Hoffman did not say what he was quoted as saying? Are you saying Hoffman misrepresented her positions in his quote?

What "FACT" was it that my post overlooked?

You made refernece to this paragraph....

Some have called the race a test of the GOP's future: whether traditional conservative ideology would lead the way forward or if a more inclusive approach would draw more people back to the party. Hoffman and his backers said Scozzafava was too liberal to truly represent the Republican party, specifically noting her support of abortion rights and same-sex marriage.

...and thus you rightfully questioned if stances on those two items were a litmus test. But you see, no where was there ever anyone actuaqlly saying that....but it was implied that he DID say that.

Then, lower in the article...at the very end of the article...where MOSAT people usually do not even get to is this.....

"It's time for us to send a message to Washington — we're sick and tired of big-spending, high-taxing, career politicians," Hoffman said in a statement Saturday after Scozzafava's announcement.

So you see...the way that article was written made the republican party come across as anti abortion and anti same sex marriage...yet no where was it actually said...and what WAS quoted as being said by a republican was buried in the end...and even passed over by you.

For example...we said in this thread that it has to do with governemnt spending...and the article QUOTED the same thing being said....yet YOU cited what was siad BUT NBOT QUOTED by a republican....just written by the reporter.....and asked if that was our lithmus test.

I find that interesting....and to be frank....so should you.;

 

[PoliticalChic]

Here is one Conservative's answer to part one above:

1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).


3) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Conservatives believe in choice of healthcare, education, religion, and various other areas. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

4) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

5) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it.. Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

6) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

7) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and“Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

8) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

Hey political chick. I think it would be easy to find conservatives and liberals who disagree with being pigeon-holed that way. I think it highly disengenious to have a conservative define what is and what is not "a liberal" just as it is dishonest to have a liberal define what a conservative is or is not.

Her post was "one conservatives answer...".

My question to PoliChic: From your source, what would be one (1) moral truth?

If it were from a specific source I would provide the link.

This is a compilation from my reading, and my thinking.

Much of it is the result of back-and-forth on this board, from threads such as this one.

But if you need a source, try reading some of the ideas of and by Edmund Burke.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Hey political chick. I think it would be easy to find conservatives and liberals who disagree with being pigeon-holed that way. I think it highly disengenious to have a conservative define what is and what is not "a liberal" just as it is dishonest to have a liberal define what a conservative is or is not.

Her post was "one conservatives answer...".

My question to PoliChic: From your source, what would be one (1) moral truth?

If it were from a specific source I would provide the link.

This is a compilation from my reading, and my thinking.

Much of it is the result of back-and-forth on this board, from threads such as this one.

But if you need a source, try reading some of the ideas of and by Edmund Burke.

I've read Burke (as I remember the assigned reading was a compilation of his letters), but that was a lifetime ago.
Would you suggest an example of a "Moral Truth"? It may lead to a discussion to better help me and others understand "conservative" in contemporary terms.

PS, my son just showed up, time to hit the gym. I'll check in later and see if this remains and interesting thread or deteriorates into another thread filled with idiotgrams.

 

[The Rabbi]

Then what does someone have to do to become a "RINO" or a Republican who is not a "real" conservative?

Support programs that increase taxes or extend government control over society.

I apprciate you serious response Rabbi. Did you mean government control over society, or of the individual?

Depends.
Libertarian types are more concerned over the individual. Non-libs more towards business type situations.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Here is one Conservative's answer to part one above:

1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).


3) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Conservatives believe in choice of healthcare, education, religion, and various other areas. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

4) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

5) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it.. Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

6) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

7) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and“Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

8) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

Hey political chick. I think it would be easy to find conservatives and liberals who disagree with being pigeon-holed that way. I think it highly disengenious to have a conservative define what is and what is not "a liberal" just as it is dishonest to have a liberal define what a conservative is or is not.

Sounds more like your are not willing to put the time and thought into a critique on the other side, either by disagreement with specifics above, or by giving a liberal counterargument.

I don't know if I am qualified to give a "liberal" response but I lean more liberal on social and environmental issues and am fiscally conservative, but it is highly dishonest to say liberals react to material success with envy and hostility. Or that feeling replaces knowledge for the liberal. In fact the inventions of "what liberals do" and "how liberals think and react" are absurd.

As are the fictitious self-aggrandizement versions of what motivates and guides "conservatism."

If you'd like to serioussly debate such childish rubbish, I'll be happy to.

Let's start with "feeling replaces knoweldge for the liberal" while data drives "the conservative's" actions.

All the peer-reviewed scientific data reaches an undeniable conclusion that human activity is contributing to climate change. The only legimate scientific argument remaining is the degree (pardon the pun) of the influence. Is that what drives the "conservative position" on this issue? Of course not. They replace peer-reviewed science with op-ed opinions and bumper sticker slogans. Their feelings of animosity toward those who brought the news outweighs the science and data.

 

[nodoginnafight]

...and thus you rightfully questioned if stances on those two items were a litmus test. But you see, no where was there ever anyone actuaqlly saying that....but it was implied that he DID say that.

It wasn't IMPLIED that he said that - it was unequivocally STATED that he said it. Are you claiming that he DID NOT say it?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Hey political chick. I think it would be easy to find conservatives and liberals who disagree with being pigeon-holed that way. I think it highly disengenious to have a conservative define what is and what is not "a liberal" just as it is dishonest to have a liberal define what a conservative is or is not.

Sounds more like your are not willing to put the time and thought into a critique on the other side, either by disagreement with specifics above, or by giving a liberal counterargument.

If you'd like to serioussly debate such childish rubbish, I'll be happy to.

Let's start with "feeling replaces knoweldge for the liberal" while data drives "the conservative's" actions.

All the peer-reviewed scientific data reaches an undeniable conclusion that human activity is contributing to climate change. The only legimate scientific argument remaining is the degree (pardon the pun) of the influence. Is that what drives the "conservative position" on this issue? Of course not. They replace peer-reviewed science with op-ed opinions and bumper sticker slogans. Their feelings of animosity toward those who brought the news outweighs the science and data.

Global warming is a hoax, and I hope that your recall championing it when the late night hosts are making you the butt of their jokes.

The subject has been gone over ad infinitum, and years from now I'm sure intelligent folk like yourself will realize that it is just a global-governance scheme.

Now how about a clear cut case of liberal-"feeling passes for knowing."

Gun control. Liberals 'feel' that banning guns would produce fewer gun-crimes. Conservatives know that this is silly, as criminals would hardly follow the law.

"In a comprehensive study of all public multiple shooting incidents in America between 1977 and 1999, economists John Lott and Bill Landes found that the only public policy that reduced both the incidence and casualties of such shootings were concealed-carry laws. Not only are there 60 percent fewer gun massacres after states adopt concealed-carry laws, but the death and injury rate of such rampages are reduced by 80 percent."
From an Ann Coulter column, January 29, 2009


In 2003,the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied whether gun control laws actually work including all sorts of gun laws, from bans on types of guns, types of ammunition, licensing and restriction mandates, waiting periods, laws to keep guns from kids, and harsh punishments for violations. Conclusion: no conclusive evidence that gun control laws contribute to decreases in violent crime or suicide. (cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm)


National Academy of Science, in 2004, published a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, and 43 government publications evaluating 80 gun control attempts: they found none of the gun laws reduced violent crime, suicide, or accidents.( (Firearms and violence: a critical review - Google Books)


In 1997, the English Parliament instituted a gun ban. From 1998 through 2005, the number of deaths and injuries from handguns skyrocketed 340%.
(Ministers 'covered up' gun crime - Times Online)


In 2007, a study published in the Harvard Journal of Law considered gun ownership and murder rates in almost every European country, found that countries with more widespread gun ownership had fewer murders, and those with less gun ownership had more murders. (http://www.garymauser.net/pdf/MauserPaper-200611.pdf)


Now, unless you are prepared to argue that the gun control argument is not a liberal -conservative hallmark, you lose.

And if you argue that this is not a case in point, you are not serious.

BTW, I believe that gun control means holding it with two hands.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Her post was "one conservatives answer...".

My question to PoliChic: From your source, what would be one (1) moral truth?

If it were from a specific source I would provide the link.

This is a compilation from my reading, and my thinking.

Much of it is the result of back-and-forth on this board, from threads such as this one.

But if you need a source, try reading some of the ideas of and by Edmund Burke.

I've read Burke (as I remember the assigned reading was a compilation of his letters), but that was a lifetime ago.
Would you suggest an example of a "Moral Truth"? It may lead to a discussion to better help me and others understand "conservative" in contemporary terms.

PS, my son just showed up, time to hit the gym. I'll check in later and see if this remains and interesting thread or deteriorates into another thread filled with idiotgrams.

What is your definition of 'moral truth'?

I thought my post was full of them.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Global warming is a hoax, and I hope that your recall championing it when the late night hosts are making you the butt of their jokes.

Feeling over data - you have made my point.

The idea that conservatives are anymore "data-driven" than liberals is just hyper-partisan nonsense. You just confirmed it. Not a single piece of peer-reviewed science (the data) rejects the influence of humans on our climate. You try to rebut with "feelings." You made my point.

Since you have inserted your "feelings-driven" position on the issue, you now carry the burden of providing peer-reviewed science to support your position - or you lose.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Global warming is a hoax, and I hope that your recall championing it when the late night hosts are making you the butt of their jokes.

Feeling over data - you have made my point.

The idea that conservatives are anymore "data-driven" than liberals is just hyper-partisan nonsense. You just confirmed it. Not a single piece of peer-reviewed science (the data) rejects the influence of humans on our climate. You try to rebut with "feelings." You made my point.

Au contraire.

The global warming hoax is revealed as such more each day.

Of course I can post exposes of the silly subject.

But it is telling that you did not want to engage on the gun control issue, as it underscores how libs defy reams of studies that prove beyond doubt that the conservative argument is correct.

 

[Oldandtired]

...and thus you rightfully questioned if stances on those two items were a litmus test. But you see, no where was there ever anyone actuaqlly saying that....but it was implied that he DID say that.

It wasn't IMPLIED that he said that - it was unequivocally STATED that he said it. Are you claiming that he DID NOT say it?

No....what I am saying is that the reporter simply added in that he cited those two as reasons....implying they were the ONLY reasons. He did not put in the quote.....he simply applied how he "took it"....
But in an effort to come across as fair and balanced he DID put a more accurate "quote" at the end of the article.
And if you noitced....it worked....even you....one who is involved in political debate daily, took the NON QUOTE as the fact and did not pick up on the actual quote.
I am sure the question came up as "what liberal views does she hold"...and they mentioned many things such as spening and taxes AND mentioned abortion and same sex marriage....
Take it as you wish...I see it as manipulation of the truth.

 

[ihopehefails]

It appears that those who identify as conservatives are now divided. Some remain as members of the Republican Party, others identify as Libertarians or conservatives and many simply state they are independent.
As a registered Democrat, moderate on some, liberal on other issues, I understand one party is not the be all end all for most of us. Democrats are used to in-fighting, and the joke that getting Democrats to agree is akin to herding cats is spot on.
Hence, my questions:
1) On what do all conservatives agree?
2) What issues differentiate a Republican from an independent or a Libertarian?

I have never seen a democrat in my lifetime vote against their party.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

It appears that those who identify as conservatives are now divided. Some remain as members of the Republican Party, others identify as Libertarians or conservatives and many simply state they are independent.
As a registered Democrat, moderate on some, liberal on other issues, I understand one party is not the be all end all for most of us. Democrats are used to in-fighting, and the joke that getting Democrats to agree is akin to herding cats is spot on.
Hence, my questions:
1) On what do all conservatives agree?
2) What issues differentiate a Republican from an independent or a Libertarian?

Lets see....if I try and give you an honest answer are you going to reciprocate in kind? Or are you going to go all wacky on me?

I want to answer but am a little shy about taking you seriously after your behavior yesterday.

 

[Wry Catcher]

A 12 year old on a little league team shot and killed himself with a handgun his father kept for the families protection. He did so because he got a "D" and his father said he would need to quit baseball if he got any "D's". He died holding his baseball uniform in the family livingroom.
Mark Twain wrote: There are liars, damn liars and statistics..

 

[Wry Catcher]

It appears that those who identify as conservatives are now divided. Some remain as members of the Republican Party, others identify as Libertarians or conservatives and many simply state they are independent.
As a registered Democrat, moderate on some, liberal on other issues, I understand one party is not the be all end all for most of us. Democrats are used to in-fighting, and the joke that getting Democrats to agree is akin to herding cats is spot on.
Hence, my questions:
1) On what do all conservatives agree?
2) What issues differentiate a Republican from an independent or a Libertarian?

Lets see....if I try and give you an honest answer are you going to reciprocate in kind? Or are you going to go all wacky on me?

I want to answer but am a little shy about taking you seriously after your behavior yesterday.

I'm not shy at all. Deal the cards, I play the hand dealt.

 

[Si modo]

^^^^

 

[alan1]

A 12 year old on a little league team shot and killed himself with a handgun his father kept for the families protection. He did so because he got a "D" and his father said he would need to quit baseball if he got any "D's". He died holding his baseball uniform in the family livingroom.
Mark Twain wrote: There are liars, damn liars and statistics..

Was the 12 year old a conservative or a liberal?
Oh wait, that doesn't fucking matter, does it?
So much for your "serious political question". Citing an isolated tragic event is not a valid argument either way.

 

[oreo]

It appears that those who identify as conservatives are now divided. Some remain as members of the Republican Party, others identify as Libertarians or conservatives and many simply state they are independent.
As a registered Democrat, moderate on some, liberal on other issues, I understand one party is not the be all end all for most of us. Democrats are used to in-fighting, and the joke that getting Democrats to agree is akin to herding cats is spot on.
Hence, my questions:
1) On what do all conservatives agree?
2) What issues differentiate a Republican from an independent or a Libertarian?

There is only one answer from me--a true conservative:

We believe in smaller government, which means we as Americans have the opportunity to prosper.

"When government is big enough to give you everything you want, it's also big enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson.