Serious Evolution Question

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by jwoodie, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    First, let me say that I do not subscribe to any religious explanation for life on earth in a literal sense, e.g., seven 24 hour days. However, I am dissatisfied with the currently popular explanation of Darwinian evolution, i.e., that all life has been generated from a continuous random mutation procedure that miraculously produces new species from old species "over millions of years." It seems to me that this explanation is a scientific cop out to avoid the question of exactly how this is possible.

    I would also point out that Darwin had no understanding of the genetic basis for differentiating species, i.e., differently appearing individuals that still retained the ability to reproduce viable offspring (grizzly bears and polar bears, for example). Instead, each local adaptation was viewed as a different species. Under this reasoning, different human racial groups could be viewed as different species.

    So my question is this: How do two species A mate to produce species B (who can no longer mate with species A), and where does species B then find another species B to mate with? Let me put forth an example of how currently defined evolution does not work: Humans have been engaged in an intensive experiment to create a new species of dog for over 3,000 years, resulting in the greatest size variation (100x) of any species that has ever existed on Earth. However, at the end of the day they are all still the same species and can (theoretically) still mate with each other and produce viable offspring. Why hasn't "evolution" created a new species of dog?

    I feel like an 18th Century astronomer who, after discovering that the Sun was at the center of our solar system, couldn't get the Moon to behave itself and orbit the Sun like everything else. Additional discovery was needed before the practical and the theoretical could be merged. Similarly, Darwinian evolution provided a marvelous basis for explaining local adaptions within species, but can't account for differences between species.

    Can any of you explain this without resorting to the "millions of years" argument?
     
  2. RosieS
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    RosieS Partisan Courtesan Supporting Member

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    Sure. Horses and donkeys are closely enuff related that they can produce offspring...but that offspring is sterile and cannot reproduce itself. If you want more mules ya gotta match up a horse and donkey again.

    That is for equines. For large felines you get lions and tigers making ligers....and ligers cannot make ligers

    Crossbreeding can eventually produce a new species if enuff genetic mutations have piled up to produce a crossbreed that can reproduce itself.

    But piling up enuff mutations takes...well, you know.

    BTW there have been quite a few advances to Darwinism since Darwin himself in the 1850's.

    Regards from Rosie
     
  3. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Thanks, but that is why I referred to "viable" offspring. Please give me an example where "crossbreeding" has resulted in a new species. No offense intended, but you seem to be falling back on the "millions of years" argument. Also, what "advances" are you referring to?
     
  4. rdean
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    rdean rddean

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    that all life has been generated from a continuous random mutation procedure that miraculously produces new species from old species "over millions of years." It seems to me that this explanation is a scientific cop out to avoid the question of exactly how this is possible.

    --------

    Because that is the explanation of someone who believes in "magical creation". What gives it away is the word, "miraculously". Try harder.
     
  5. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    Rdean is proof against evolution
     
  6. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    ...and, unfortunately, an example of intellectual fascism which permeates the Left in Western countries. Instead of open debate and honest search for truth, it promotes a rigid adherence to its political orthodoxy by viciously attacking anyone who questions it.
     
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  7. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    You are looking at this incorrectly and with some ignorance as to how evolution works. Dissmissing the ligers and mules point shows this.

    First, millions of years is not a scapegoat. It is simply the timeframe that nature is working with. Science does not use this to simply wash away the challenges of evolution but science cannot 'change' reality because you don't like the fact that these things take a long damn time to occur.

    Second, you are focusing on the liger and mule as the emergent specie and that is not the case. It is possible but extremely unlikely that such a thing would occur, 2 specie creating a 3rd viable specie. Instead, what you are seeing is the middle of the 'millions of years' point that you are not comfortable with. Lions and tigers have genetically drifted far enough that they are NO LONGER ABLE TO CREATE THEIR OWN when mating. They are effectively different species BUT they have not drifted so far that mating is entirely out of the question. That is evolution at work right there. It just has not had the millions of years required to create 2 species that are so different that they cannot reproduce at all though such unions are completely ineffective.

    Further, two species A DOES NOT produce species B. EVER. That never happens. You getting caught up that the new species has no one to reproduce with is leaving out the millions of individual creatures that occurred before species A became species B. That progression was slow and while B is still able to reproduce with those of its kind, it might not be able to do so with the original form of that species. The original form that may still exist in another part of the world, isolated from the changes of drivers that caused the new species to developed the way it did. More likely, that other group changed in its own ways and drifted into another species of its own.
     
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  8. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    If we "evolved" from salt water why can't we drink it?
     
  9. rdean
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    rdean rddean

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    There is nothing stopping you from drinking it, moron.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. PredFan
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    PredFan Gold Member

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    Sadly, this is correct.
     

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