See if I got this right...

Richard-H

Gold Member
Aug 19, 2008
11,039
3,895
315
The mortgage companies came up with a 'bait and switch' scam whereby they would sell sub-prime adjustable rate mortgages to people who could not afford normal mortgages. Playing off the American fantasy of home ownership they scammed millions of desparately poor people into taking these loans. These people hoped against hope that something would break for them financially that would make it possible to meet their mortgage payments (like a 'RAISE' - apparently another American fantasy).

The banks & mortgage companies planned it so that after the sub-prime 'grace' period ended, the interest rate would soar to a level that the vast majority of mortgagees would not be able to pay their mortgages and would go into default. The banks would then take ownership of te property and sell it at a much higher price than the original mortgage value. The former home owners having paid the taxes and maintenance on the properties for the first several years.

So the 'plan' was for example: They give a $100k mortgage to the morgagee who pays the taxes & interest for the first few years. Since almost all mortgage payments go to paying the 'up front' interest this was no problem for the banks.

Now, if they rolled up groups of say 100 of these mortgages into a debt package, knowing that statistically 50% of the mortgages would default on an average of, say 3 years, but that the market value of the properties would accrue by an average of 40% over those three years, for the 50% that defaulted the math works out to:

50x$100k=$5mil invested.

50x$100kx1.4=$7mil realized in 3 years

for a net gain of $2mil in an average of 3 years.

So the banking industry bought up these debt packages like hotcakes and then proceeded to use them as equity (collateral) for loans. The lenders of these secondary loans then used those loans, in turn, as collateral for more loans...and so an infinite chain of loans went on for years between the banks with the root equity behind these loans being these mortgage packages.

Unfortunately for everyone, so many mortgages defaulted that there was a flood of properties on the market and instead of these properties accruing in value, they lost value. So that, if these properties lost 10% of their value the new math would be:

50x$100kx0.9=4.5mil

for a net loss of $0.5mil

BUT

the loans were taken out under the assumption of a $2mil gain, leaving the anticipated equity vs. the real equity at a net loss of $2.5mil.

This ran so deep in the financial markets that no one trusted anyone and no body would make any loans to anyone. This froze the financial markets and led to the present crisis.

Now, we could as I've suggested in an earlier thread, have the government pay up to 50% of the bad mortgages and recieve up to 50% of the equity in these properties, which would keep everyone in their homea and turn the real estate slump around...

BUT

The chain of banking loans depended upon 50% of the loans defaulting. If these loans did not default then based on $1k/month for 36 months mortgage payments on a $100k loan the math would be:

50x$1kx36=$1.8mil
for a net real loss of $3.2mil
but verses the anticipated value of the loan packages:
a net loss of $5.2mil

Sooo...helping the mortgagees pay their mortgages would be considerably WORSE for the banking industry than doing nothing.

This leaves the government with 3 options:

1. Do nothing (or help the Mortgagees, but nothing else) which will cause a collapse of the financial industry and which will, in turn, lead to a collapse of the entire economy of western civilisation, which in turn, will lead to a HUMANITARIAN DISASTER BEYOND ANYTHING THAT HAS EVER OCCURRED IN HUMAN HISTORY.

2. Give the banking system a whole lot of money, despite the fact thet they are a bunch of jackasses that based their entire financial structure on a SCAM. The tax payers will just have to hope that they get some sort of equity, bt will have to eat the difference. (ie.e the present Bush/democrat plan).

3. Help the mortgagees and let the banking industry collapse and have the government create a new socialized banking system. (Runs against the grain of most American capitalists).

This would make a good poll wouldn't it?

If you have any better ideas PLEASE let the rest of the world know.
 
You only get half the picture. this crisis took TWO parties to make it a mess. It took greedy lenders and EQUALLY GREEDY ... AND STUPID or GAMBLING borrowers.

These loans were very clearly laid out that they had balloons. Now these borrowers were NOT "desperately poor". The weren't wealthy but they weren't poor. They either had relatively low incomes or a history of missing loan payments. Thus they were HIGH RISK and like all HIGH RISK borrowers, banks will charge HIGHER RATES to cover the risk. That the loans had those higher risks somewhat hidden in balloons, still meant, at some time they would be at a high interest rates.

In the United States your are expected to be RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE for your own decisions and these borrowers have NO EXCUSE for not knowing what they were getting into. If you are too stupid to understand what you are doing....DO NOT DO IT!!!!

The lenders were betting that the value of the collateral would simply allow them to repossess the property and sell it again at an even HIGHER price IF the buyers defaulted. IF they maintained their payments they could make money on the high interest rates.

The only thing that could mess the deal up was a FALLING price. Since that has almost NEVER happened in the housing market since WWII, they didn't think it ever would. But it did, and thus the mess for all the reasons of credit swap deals you mentioned.

So this crisis took two to tango. Stupid borrowers and deceptive lenders who preyed on the greed of those stupid borrowers. They are BOTH at fault. A just solution would be to make BOTH pay. The borrowers should be kicked out of their houses to the street. And the lenders should be made to suck up all their losses and lose their wealth and go out of business.

But doing so ensures that our financial system collapses since so much of it is based on this false scheme of every rising real estate value. If that collapses foreign investors in our securities leave, en-masse, and we left in a severe DEPRESSION that would make the 1930's look like party time.
 
You only get half the picture. this crisis took TWO parties to make it a mess. It took greedy lenders and EQUALLY GREEDY ... AND STUPID or GAMBLING borrowers.

These loans were very clearly laid out that they had balloons. Now these borrowers were NOT "desperately poor". The weren't wealthy but they weren't poor. They either had relatively low incomes or a history of missing loan payments. Thus they were HIGH RISK and like all HIGH RISK borrowers, banks will charge HIGHER RATES to cover the risk. That the loans had those higher risks somewhat hidden in balloons, still meant, at some time they would be at a high interest rates.

In the United States your are expected to be RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE for your own decisions and these borrowers have NO EXCUSE for not knowing what they were getting into. If you are too stupid to understand what you are doing....DO NOT DO IT!!!!

The lenders were betting that the value of the collateral would simply allow them to repossess the property and sell it again at an even HIGHER price IF the buyers defaulted. IF they maintained their payments they could make money on the high interest rates.

The only thing that could mess the deal up was a FALLING price. Since that has almost NEVER happened in the housing market since WWII, they didn't think it ever would. But it did, and thus the mess for all the reasons of credit swap deals you mentioned.

So this crisis took two to tango. Stupid borrowers and deceptive lenders who preyed on the greed of those stupid borrowers. They are BOTH at fault. A just solution would be to make BOTH pay. The borrowers should be kicked out of their houses to the street. And the lenders should be made to suck up all their losses and lose their wealth and go out of business.

But doing so ensures that our financial system collapses since so much of it is based on this false scheme of every rising real estate value. If that collapses foreign investors in our securities leave, en-masse, and we left in a severe DEPRESSION that would make the 1930's look like party time.

Don't be too hard on people who took on a mortgage that sucks a little now back when gas was $1.80 a gallon and all the experts were telling them that there was no end to the rise in prices, only peaks and valleys on the way up.

Yes, buyer beware, but don't blame people on the fringe of a shit storm for getting dirty.

-Joe
 
Last edited:
In the English courts during the 18th Century the judges refused to criminalise fraud. They had to enforce the common law misdemeanour of cheating (where the public at large were liable to be cheated, say with weights) but they were of the opinion that if somone was conned in a fraud then that was their bad luck. The parliament corrected that during the 19th Century.

So, here we are. Folks who were conned into taking a sub-prime loan and some posters want to blame the victim (although to be fair posters are also blaming the con artists).

The people who put the bait out should be tossed in the slammer, don't blame the victims.
 
If you have any better ideas PLEASE let the rest of the world know.

I hasve a better idea.

I've posted it about three or four times.

Its basically the same thing we did in the last CREDIT DRIVEN BANKERS' DEPRESSION.

It worked out well then and there's no reason it wouldn't work out well this time, either.

The USA take over ALL the assets of the banks that are insolvent.

The USA renegotiates the mortgages with the homeowners.

The USA becomes the BANK of last resort and IT pays off the bond holders as that real estate is paid off.

The losers are the stock holders in the banks.

They can sue their former employers for their loses. Maybe they can get back SOME of what they lost, but hey, I don't really give a damn, because THEY let their employees screw up, not us.
 
In the English courts during the 18th Century the judges refused to criminalise fraud. They had to enforce the common law misdemeanour of cheating (where the public at large were liable to be cheated, say with weights) but they were of the opinion that if somone was conned in a fraud then that was their bad luck. The parliament corrected that during the 19th Century.

So, here we are. Folks who were conned into taking a sub-prime loan and some posters want to blame the victim (although to be fair posters are also blaming the con artists).

The people who put the bait out should be tossed in the slammer, don't blame the victims.

Those same courts put people in debtors prison for getting behind in their loan payments, returning the assets in default to the rich nobles who made the loans - just one of the reasons we left England.

I suppose it could be worse...

-Joe
 
I hasve a better idea.

I've posted it about three or four times.

Its basically the same thing we did in the last CREDIT DRIVEN BANKERS' DEPRESSION.

It worked out well then and there's no reason it wouldn't work out well this time, either.

The USA take over ALL the assets of the banks that are insolvent.

The USA renegotiates the mortgages with the homeowners.

The USA becomes the BANK of last resort and IT pays off the bond holders as that real estate is paid off.

The losers are the stock holders in the banks.

They can sue their former employers for their loses. Maybe they can get back SOME of what they lost, but hey, I don't really give a damn, because THEY let their employees screw up, not us.

This is the best intervention the government can do, but it doesn't consolidate the banking industry into the hands of the few who are making a grab for it, so it is not making it through the lobby filter in congress.

We should insist that nothing be done until the next administration and congress are in session next January. The clowns working on it have no accountability to the consumers and taxpayers.

-Joe
 
Don't be too hard on people who took on a mortgage that sucks a little now back when gas was $1.80 a gallon and all the experts were telling them that there was no end to the rise in prices, only peaks and valleys on the way up.

Yes, buyer beware, but don't blame people on the fringe of a shit storm for getting dirty.

-Joe

im sorry, but if you cant afford an extra $25 a week in gas and slightly higher electricity and food prices, you took out too big of a mortgage. assuming you wont have any bigger expenses is stupid
 
Don't be too hard on people who took on a mortgage that sucks a little now back when gas was $1.80 a gallon and all the experts were telling them that there was no end to the rise in prices, only peaks and valleys on the way up.

Yes, buyer beware, but don't blame people on the fringe of a shit storm for getting dirty.

-Joe

I don't think gas prices are the cause. It's an extra hundred or two a month, no big deal. Not a make or break situation. If an extra 200 a month ruins you financially, you were too much in debt as it is and you had no business buying a house. How about all the EXTRA debt people have taken on? All the credit cards? The expensive vehicle they really didn't need? Building no savings because spending money on unnecessary CRAP was too much fun?

There's way more than gas prices involved here. There are too many stupid people in this country. That's the main problem. When people learn the value of a Dollar again, we'll get somewhere.
 
This is the best intervention the government can do, but it doesn't consolidate the banking industry into the hands of the few who are making a grab for it, so it is not making it through the lobby filter in congress.

We should insist that nothing be done until the next administration and congress are in session next January. The clowns working on it have no accountability to the consumers and taxpayers.

-Joe

If any thing the government says is true we don't have the time to wait for this. Also, I seen people have been calling the hell out of their congressmen and women to vote against this 90 - 1 is the number of people against it, and anything that stops this from being passed I'm for. I wouldn't mind Editec's plan that sounds like a reasonable thing to do, but our government doesn't understand reasonable.
 
If any thing the government says is true we don't have the time to wait for this. Also, I seen people have been calling the hell out of their congressmen and women to vote against this 90 - 1 is the number of people against it, and anything that stops this from being passed I'm for. I wouldn't mind Editec's plan that sounds like a reasonable thing to do, but our government doesn't understand reasonable.

We didn't have time to waste ridding Iraq of WMD's in 2003 either, according to the lying sack of poo that the Bush administration turned out to be.

Why trust him on this 'crisis'?

Whenever the salesman says "sign now, or the deal collapses", it is time to grab your wallet, walk and consider options.

-Joe
 
Why do you people keep missing the fact that the raning companies were making up the risks associated with these bundles of mortgages?

If any SINGLE group is to blame it' the rating companies.

Had theyproperly assessed the risk inherent in the RE backed bonds, mobody would have purchased them and this whole mess would not have happened.

NO bank would accept NINA mortgages if they couldn't pass them off to Fannie Mae, and no bond buyer would have invested in their junk bonds had they KNOWN what the real risks associated with buying them were, either.

When the indictments start, EXPECT to see Moody's executives scrambling to save their sorry asses from going to Cub FED.
 
Last edited:
One of the big questions in this bailout debate is:

Where did the money go?

If my assessment of the situation (from above) is correct, then the institutions which own these debt packages would have taken loans against them equivalent to the anticipated and overestimated value. This is where the money went. These are also the institutions that are getting the bailout.

What did they do with the money that they borrowed against these loans?
 
One of the big questions in this bailout debate is:

Where did the money go?

If my assessment of the situation (from above) is correct, then the institutions which own these debt packages would have taken loans against them equivalent to the anticipated and overestimated value. This is where the money went. These are also the institutions that are getting the bailout.

What did they do with the money that they borrowed against these loans?

That's easy to track down, isn't it?

It went into very high salaries for all those involved, and it went to the bond holders in the form of very high rates of returns (until the whole damned thing blew up in the faces)

That is EXACTLY why I say that the right thing to do is work our agreements with the bond holders (who were lied to after all) such that they get a reasonable rate of return, (from the government which now owns ALL the assets of those banks) and the bond holders can SUE (class action) the players who lied to them, for the difference between what they expected and what they're actually going to get paid.

the people who should be sued by the bond holders are:

1. RATINGs companies which lied about the real risks associated with those bonds; and

2. the TOP managments which issued these bonds;and

3, Board members of those institutions which did NOT do their due diligence to prevent their managments from taking unwarranted risks.

I would dearly LOVE to see the masters of the universe lose every damned cent they made in a civil action.

That is how a civil capitalist society works, after all.
 
In the English courts during the 18th Century the judges refused to criminalise fraud. They had to enforce the common law misdemeanour of cheating (where the public at large were liable to be cheated, say with weights) but they were of the opinion that if somone was conned in a fraud then that was their bad luck. The parliament corrected that during the 19th Century.

So, here we are. Folks who were conned into taking a sub-prime loan and some posters want to blame the victim (although to be fair posters are also blaming the con artists).

The people who put the bait out should be tossed in the slammer, don't blame the victims.

Interesting bit of legal history.
 
That's easy to track down, isn't it?

It went into very high salaries for all those involved, and it went to the bond holders in the form of very high rates of returns (until the whole damned thing blew up in the faces)

That is EXACTLY why I say that the right thing to do is work our agreements with the bond holders (who were lied to after all) such that they get a reasonable rate of return, (from the government which now owns ALL the assets of those banks) and the bond holders can SUE (class action) the players who lied to them, for the difference between what they expected and what they're actually going to get paid.

the people who should be sued by the bond holders are:

1. RATINGs companies which lied about the real risks associated with those bonds; and

2. the TOP managments which issued these bonds;and

3, Board members of those institutions which did NOT do their due diligence to prevent their managments from taking unwarranted risks.

I would dearly LOVE to see the masters of the universe lose every damned cent they made in a civil action.

That is how a civil capitalist society works, after all.

Sound like a good plan to me. Now if you could just get Chris Dodd to buy it...
 

Forum List

Back
Top