Secession: Proposed Constitutional Amendment

[WorldWatcher]

Well no.

There absolutely should be no right to secede.

There is a right for folks to leave. If they are unhappy they should use that right.

When our ancestors were unhappy with their government, they didn't just "leave" they fought for their Independence. They fought for their right to institute a government that would represent them and their interests. Do you really think we should do less than our ancestors did?

The south was in the right. Read the Declaration of Independence. Too bad so many concentrate on the Constitution and Ignore the Bill of Rights and our Declaration of Independence, but what can you expect from a government the ignores the constitution anyway?

Remember...

If we had lost the Revolutionary War then Madison, Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Franklin and the rest would appear in the history books as traitors to the crown and criminals that were hung for their actions.


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[bripat9643]

There's nothing "reasonable" about that. When you join a club, the consent of the existing members is required. Does that mean you need their permission to leave the club? Only a lunatic would claim you do. The United States was originally designed to be a "voluntary" association of states. If you can't leave, then it's no longer voluntary.

Which is already established precedent.

What is already established precedent?

Furthermore, your amendment wouldn't change a thing because Congress can already vote to allow a state to secede. There's nothing in the Constitution that says it can't.

True, they could.

What it does do though is provide specifics on a process that can be consistently applied. Just as the Constitution spells out how States are admitted to the Union, it will spell out a process and expectation of what will happen when a State leaves the Union.

Why would you need an amendment to grant Congress a power it already has? The purpose of Amendments is to grant Congress powers it doesn't have or to protect freedoms of the people that aren't already protected. Most Amendments place limitations on the federal government.

 

[bripat9643]

Remember...

If we had lost the Revolutionary War then Madison, Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Franklin and the rest would appear in the history books as traitors to the crown and criminals that were hung for their actions.

yes, that's true. And that proves exactly what?

 

[bripat9643]

I wonder how many of these arguments were used in 1860? Whatever, the answer was given in 1865.

So you believe the barrel of a gun is a valid argument?

How beautifully liberal!

 

[bripat9643]

The logic is that a State petitioning to going the Union does not get a vote on the matter, there fore a State petitioning to leave the Union should not vote on the matter either. The will of that State is known because of the Bill of Secession, the vote is for the other States to accept or reject the bill.

Why shouldn't they get a vote on the matter. If people on Social Security can vote on whether they get a COLA, why can't a state vote one whether it can secede?

 

[bripat9643]

I provided the link, just read Article I Section 8, it provides that Congress has the power to suppress insurrection.

The Constitution expressly does support that claim.

Secession is not an insurrection.

Next argument.

Sure it is as without the consent of both parties involved then it is revolting against the established government.

Next argument.

Nope, it's simply seceding.

Furthermore, most of the Founding Fathers believed secession was perfectly Constitutional, especially Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the father of the Constitution.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Secession is not an insurrection.

Next argument.

Sure it is as without the consent of both parties involved then it is revolting against the established government.

Next argument.

Nope, it's simply seceding.

Furthermore, most of the Founding Fathers believed secession was perfectly Constitutional, especially Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the father of the Constitution.

Of course they did, they revolted against the crown.

Yet the Founding Fathers ensured that the Congress had the authority to suppress revolts against civil authority or an established government which is what an insurrection is.


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[C_Clayton_Jones]

Title: An Amendment Concerning the Secession of a State

Section 1: Power to Secede
Just as new states are admitted to the Union in Article IV Section 3 of this Constitution by powers vested in Congress, so to shall the secession of a State be approved by Congress representing the combined will of all people of the United States.

Section 2: Insurrection
Any State attempting to secede from the Union without the consent of Congress will be deemed to be in a condition of insurrection under Article I Section 8 of this Constitution.

Section 3: Method of Approval
Upon the receipt of a Bill of Secession from the duly elected republican form of government representing a State, both houses of Congress will be called into emergency session to address the bill and will remain in session until such time as a final determination of the bill is laid to rest.

Upon the receipt of a Bill of Secession, the States representatives to Congress will become non-voting members on all matters during the period of consideration of the bill.

Each house will adjourn to their respective chambers to debate the merits of the Bill of Session. After a period of debate, Congress will meet in joint session to vote on the bill. Each member of the Senate will receive one vote, each member of the House will receive one vote, and the Vice President will have one vote on the question of secession regardless of the votes cast by Senators. Members of Congress for the State requesting secession may fully participate in the debate process, however they shall not be counted or present during the joint session during the time the ballots are cast on the question of secession. Secession will be granted upon a majority of votes.

A roll-call vote on the question of secession will be conducted in a joint session of Congress no later than thirty calendar days after the official receipt of the Bill of Secession from the State. Final determination may be delayed in ten day increments upon approval by both the joint session of Congress and the Chief Executive of the State requesting the bill. No more than three extensions may be granted. If after the initial period and any approved extensions the bill has not been voted on or has not achieved passage, then the question of the bill will have failed.

Section 4: Citizenship
Individuals in all States of the Union are citizens of these United States. Upon a Bill of Secession each individual will choose to retain United States citizenship or will renounce their citizenship in the United States of America by accepting citizenship in the new country. Accepting citizenship in the new country will be considered voluntary revocation of United States citizenship. Voting in the new country after the date of independence of the new country will be considered voluntary revocation of United States citizenship.

After revocation of citizenship, an individual may in the future apply for naturalization under laws as determined by Congress under Article I Section 8 of this Constitution but will forever lose any designation of natural born citizen.

Parent or legal guardians of minor children may take such action as they deem appropriate, however a minor child will retrain United States citizenship for a period not to exceed one year after their birth date in the year of maturity where they would otherwise be able to vote in federal elections, prior to such time they must proactively choose to retain their United States citizenship under rules and procedures as determined by Congress or their citizenship will be considered renounced in the same manner as other adults.

Section 5: Entitlements and Other Payments
Upon loss of United States citizenship, either through an act of secession or through an individual act of renouncing citizenship, the individual will irrevocably renounce their citizenship and forfeit all claims to any and all entitlements payable by the United States government. States may make such laws dealing with loss of citizenship and entitlements as they deem necessary.

During a period of consideration of a Bill of Secession, all entitlement payments to individuals, payments to the State as part of any and all government programs, and payments that are part of government contracts with private entities in the requesting State will be reduced by fifty percent. If the Bill of Secession is approved, then such payments, programs, and contracts within the new country will be considered void. If the Bill of Secession is not approved and the State remains in the Union, then all reductions in payment will be eliminated and paid in full retroactive for the period of reduction.

Section 6: Taxation
Individual will be liable for all taxes due as of their last date of citizenship. Ex-citizens will be treated as other foreign persons as of their first date of non-citizenship for other tax purposes.

Section 7: Transfer of Property, Debt Allocation, and Other Considerations
As a requirement of secession, all mobile property and assets of the United State government will be returned to the United States. Property not returned will be added to any monetary amount owed to the people of the United States by the government of the ex-State.

The new country will assume a proportion of debt, effective as of the date of secession, equal to the percentage population of the seceding State as compared to the population of the United States in whole.

As of the date of secession, all business licenses and professional licenses issued under the authority of the United States or any of its legal entities will be considered void

All United States passports for those not retaining United States citizenship will be void upon the date of secession. Persons from the ex-State who do not retain United States citizenship will be required to obtain new travel documents and comply with all travel requirements in the United States as Congress may create.

This amendment shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.

The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Some people think that States can summarily secede, others say no. A few like me think they can by following the same process used to be admitted to the Union.

OK, lets make it official.



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The issues addressed here can’t be resolved with a mere ‘amendment’ to the Constitution; such an ‘amendment’ would result in only chaos.

You should petition for a constitutional convention, dissolve the Union, and start anew.

 

[regent]

After a neighborhood meeting, some of us are going to petition to secede from the county. We have already created a list of grievances and will not accept anything less than our freedom from the county, After we free ourselves from county rule we will then secede from the state.
The neighborhood group doesn't know it yet, but once free from county and state, my wife and I will seceede from the neighborhood. This secession thing is going to be so cool.

 

[dblack]

The Tenth Amendment (Amendment X) to the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, was ratified on December 15, 1791.[1] The Tenth Amendment states the Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people.

Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 10th Amendment provides that powers not granted to the federal government are retained by the states. Hate to point out bad news but Article I Section 8 provides that Congress can deal with insurrections. A state attempting to summarily secede has placed itself in a state of insurrection.

Yep. And when you take into account that the ridiculously broad interpretations of the general welfare clause and the commerce clause grant pretty much every power to the federal government...

Not sure what's left the for the states, much less "the people".

 

[dblack]

If people want to leave the United States, they have that right, but they don't have the right to take the state with them.

Do they have the right to take their property with them?

 

[regent]

If people want to leave the United States, they have that right, but they don't have the right to take the state with them.

Do they have the right to take their property with them?

Yep, they can take all their property but if they have a house, they can take the house but not the lot.

 

[bripat9643]

Of course they did, they revolted against the crown.

Yet the Founding Fathers ensured that the Congress had the authority to suppress revolts against civil authority or an established government which is what an insurrection is.

Secession isn't a revolt, so your claim is a non sequitur.

Several states threatened to secede on a number of occasions prior to the Civil War, and no won called it treason then. The fact is no one viewed secession as treason until Lincoln decided he wouldn't allow it.

 

[bripat9643]

If people want to leave the United States, they have that right, but they don't have the right to take the state with them.

Do they have the right to take their property with them?

Yep, they can take all their property but if they have a house, they can take the house but not the lot.

Every property owner has the right to declare his territory not subject to the dictates of the federal government or any local government, for that matter.

 

[bripat9643]

The issues addressed here can’t be resolved with a mere ‘amendment’ to the Constitution; such an ‘amendment’ would result in only chaos.

You should petition for a constitutional convention, dissolve the Union, and start anew.

The last thing we need is a gang of scum bag politicians rewriting our Constitution.

 

[9thIDdoc]

If attempts to withdraw from the union peacefully are to be considered revolt and trigger violence anyway, it would make more sense to revolt for real. Maintain the union and just change the government.