Science in Muslim World

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by ekrem, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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  2. CSM
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    CSM Senior Member

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    Interesting...but not sure it means anything, especially given the measurement criteria they used (indicated by the asterisk). Writing about something and publishing it is not necessarily equivalent to production.
     
  3. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    There is something called ISI Thompson "science citation index".
    http://scientific.thomson.com/products/sci/
    I do not know of which quality a scientific work has to be that this work could be declared "scientific". But there surely are some criterias.

    here some more detailled informations:

    http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~twas/pdf/NL15_2_PDF/06-Turkey_24-27_low.pdf


    You wrote, that writing and publishing something is not neccasarily equivalent to produceing something. That is correct.

    But anyway:
    And remember that Turkey is not a reccource exporter (oil, gas) like Iran, Saudi-Arabia & Co. but an importer.

    [​IMG]
    http://dinarstandard.com/rankings/ds100/analysis.htm#turk

    25 % of the Biggest Muslim World Companies are Turkish
    http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=24146


    So, when it comes to scientific output as well as private companies Turkey with its 73 million people is unproportional leading within over 1 billion Muslims in both fields (scientific+business). And Turkey has no luxuries like Oil and Natural Gas.
     
  4. CSM
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    CSM Senior Member

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    I totally understand. I am not trying to denigrate the statistics at all. I am however, questioning the importance of the statistics. The number of articles publish merely indicates that there are a good number of prolific writers out there. The statistics do not indicate if the published articles have any merit or are of any worth in advancing scientific endeavor/knowledge.

    I sincerely do hope that such a vast amount of publication does indeed lead to scientific advancement and the resolution of mankinds issues...however, I am a cynic, and believe that much of the aforementioned publications are merely a ploy for either personal recognition, substantiating a political agenda or justifying further funding (whether or not there is real value in the effort).
     
  5. MtnBiker
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    MtnBiker Senior Member

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    Well said, the same could be applied to the global warming issue as well.
     
  6. CSM
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    CSM Senior Member

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    I suspect that a comparison of each nation's funding (in real money) of scientific research and development would be a more worthy indication. I suspect then that we would find the more wealthy nations (the G8 countries) would lead the pack.

    I think Canavar's point though is that Turkey is leading the pack of Islamic nations and the number of publications are an indicator of that. I hesitate to draw conclusions based on this discussion, but it seems to me that Turkey is better off financially than many other Muslim countries and thus can better afford to fund scientific research. I also suspect that Turkey, because it is more secular than most Muslim countries is more interested in scientific endeavors than those other Muslim countries. I guess it boils down to the options of spending money to better the life of a country's citizens (Turkey) or spending money to enforce and spread Islam...by force if necessary...and let Allah take care of the lives of Muslims.
     
  7. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    in the last 4 years the budget for Reserch & Development have been multiplied fivefold increase:
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=53941

    The reverse Brain-Drain in Turkey is ongoing. Many Turks from abroad come back to the country and establish Technology companies and Techno-Parks.
    There are studies which say, that if only the American Turks come home they will generate a lasting 1% growth to economy:
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39464

    When this reversive brain-drain has ended, Turkey will activate the potential of Muslim qualified scientists and workers in countries like Saudi-Arabia, Iran and so on which are unhappy with their regimes and want to leave the country. Turkey with its culture which isn't that far from theirs and geographical closeness to their families which they leave, is perfectly suited for them.

    Of course the quality of education is important. One Einstein can do the work of 1000 Professors combined. Since 2004 we have now a programme to sponsor talented childs. Before we had no such programm, and all talented children went the nornal education system.
    But in broadening and improving education and science there is a higher possibility to assist, boost and most importantly activate this potential.
    Turkey has a strong private entrepreneurship and a diversified non oil-related economy with huge potential and average growth rates the last 4 years of about 7 %. The last 2 quartals of 2006 even 8,5 %.
    http://english.sabah.com.tr/48A5B5902D0F49F78FF43F4BC3DCAEBA.html

    In most Muslim countries for example Iran, State controlls 63 % of economy and exports and budget is relied on eanings of natural reccources.
    So state is work-giver from whom you get your bread.
    It is a sort of control. You can guide things. In Turkey no State controlled company is in Top-10 biggest. And privatization is stil ongoing. This entrepeunership i think is the most evident advantage for Turkey in comparence with the Muslim world.

    When you export natural reccources like Oil or natural gas, you do not need to produce technology to improve the natural reccources, because in exporting natural reccources you do not have to be competitive. Either you have it or you don't and there is always need for that kind of natural reccource.
    Saudi Arabia's Oil is hydrocarbone, Iran's Oil is hydrocarbone. For natural reccources there are customers, you just have to pump it out of the earth. And even this pumping out of earth the most Muslim countires can not do by theirselves..
    Malaysia is very very developed and its economy does not rely on natural reccources, but Malysia is far far away from the Middle East and has no meaning in power structure of the Middle East. United Arab Emirates are also doing very good. They diversify their economy for years now and this will bring them longstanding success in the future. And United Arab Emirates are also a open society allthough they have some rigid laws based on Islam.

    Countries like Egypt for example have no oil, too, such as Turkey. But they are not doing that good as Turkey in science and economy. So i think that Turkey is something special in its Geography. Maybe this comes from socio-political things of Turkish history or that Turkey always competed with Europeans either with war or influence and always was in contact with them. Turkey has therefore more relations with European countries then other neighbours of Turkey.
    Even with Greece, which we have had many conflicts we nowadays have a deeper cooperation then for example Syria.
    We have for 10 years now a common market with EU. So our companies must be competitive and follow the rules of capitalism and must win and hold customers to be successfull. This goes about innovation and quality. So we must produce knowledge and utilise it for socio-econimic development.
    But Turkey is not yet there where western countires are and in comparance to Germany or USA we do bad in science, but we are on a good way and constantly close the gap..

    So, CSM, your oservation to compare R&D spendings would be a better comparamce is correct. But it is not Turkey's fault if other nations which have a dominant muslim population rely solely on natural reccources.
    We have a project called "Vizyon 2023" where 27 govermental insitutions, 29 industrial represantitives and 9 universities are organized within.
    This vision aims to successfully end the transformation of Turkey into a knowledge based society by 2023, the 100th anniversary of Turkish Republic.
    This is detailled planned such as building high-altitude planes in 2008, sending scientific satellite to a planet in our solar system the same year, constructing of Turkish Space Port in 2011, firing turkish space rocket in 2014 from the Space port, sending Turkonaut in 2015 to ISS into space and from 2020 on produceing Space vehicles.
    This plan is a whole guideline (Nanotechnology, alternative fuels, Machinery, Biotechnology and so on) which everyone has to follow and aims for different sectors are being set with detailled state-funded projects by years, and their fullfilling is being observed and financed.


    http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/arc...kage/sec_1426_final_progress_report_tr_en.pdf


    There is still a long way to go, and allthough i started this Thread in sort of propaganda, Turkey competes with industry societies which, unfortunately, overwhelmingly majority of Muslim nations in this world choose not to be.
    For this the circumstances are there:

    Budget surplus for the 1st time since 1983:
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=53991
    And the Central Bank reserves are on a record level of 60 Billion Dollars.

    Record increase in Turkish Export
    http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=39420

    Turkey Enjoys Record-Breaking Foreign Direct Investment
    http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2006/03/16/feature-03

    Foreign investment to Turkey forecast to double in 2007
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=54868

    Turkey's voting share in IMF is raised
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=54478

    From year to year we break our own records. And economy growth enables extended budgets, so you do not have to take priorities.
    So we can invest into present+future then only in present days.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Annie
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  9. Annie
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    I think you are correct. I also think Turkey, Egypt have taken steps away from secularism and are rapidly becoming more Islamic. It will be interesting indeed to see where they are in another 5 years.

    Turkey in particular has apparently thrown it's chances with Iran, dumping EU, which was unfairly harsh in the past.
     
  10. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Yes, it was indeed a great post. Nice you see it that way, too.
    Of course Nobel-prizes are the non-plus-ultra. Such thing Turkey can't exhibit, yet.
    But what is not, can be in future.

    Or does a country had to be nobel-priced that we can talk about science?
    We did not win Nobel prize, but Nobel Prize from EU, the Descartes prize for a project of widening the capacity of 4,8 GB DVD twohundred-fold.
    http://www.tuba.gov.tr/habergoster.php?haber=bdhaber_11

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/metaldecorated_.html
    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/news_nanotubes.htm

    You talk about breakthroughs in Medicine...
    There are some very good mediciners in USA which are Turks. Why are they in USA? Because Turkish top university research was a long time neglected. So our scientists went abroad.
    We now make this turn around again and when these scientists return it is very good for Turkey. But improving Turkish university research in such way that even next generations of scientists do not leave the country is even better.
    And Turkey layed the conditions for this in improving fundings for science in Turkey.

    All Turkish mediciners which graduated in Turkish universities and then left Turkey in past beacuse there was no environment of top- university research:

    Kutluk Oktay: restoring fertility of cancer woman in USA:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/08/earlyshow/health/main604790.shtml

    Gökhan Hotamisligil: researching in Diabetes and a cure for it:
    Scientists Identify Major Molecular Pathway That Leads to Diabetes
    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press10142004.html
    +
    Find May Lead To Diabetes Cure
    http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=503951

    There are also world-famous mediciners like Mehmet Oz (Heart surgeon) and Kamil Ugurbil (cybernetics) which are specialists on their work and all left Turkey because in Turkey there was no environment of top research..

    But not only from Medicine but also in Nanotechnology.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Erdemir

    There are some more like Mehmet Bayindir who worked on the Nano-technology Soldier programm of the Pentagon and optic-fibre cables for next generation sapce-telescopes
    http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~mb/docs/Fabriccanseelight.wmv
    , now returned to Turkey. And others.

    I am of course proud of this people, but it would make me more proud when they all return to Turkey and make science in Turkey. This is an ongoing process.
    Look, i know that Iranian scientists work at NASA for example.
    But !! would these Iranian scientists return to Iran? No, they wouldn't. But Turkish scientists begin to return and we try to stop next generation scientists from leaving the country. And in near future we will even compete with states like USA for importing scientists from repressive countires like Saudi-Arabia or Iran.
    We have the culture + geography bonus.

    When you look to above graphic with the universities, they you see, that top Turkish scientific publications are in surgeon area. In Istanbul we have some very good eye operation institutes, whose customers come from Europe.
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39586

    Here a report form the University of Sussex (UK) about Nanotechnology in Turkey:

    http://tc.cpes.susx.ac.uk/BCG/newsletters/carbon_newsletter_december_05.doc


    Here the smallest Flag in the World in size of 1:700.000 Millimeters. 300 of these flags make the thickness of 1 human hair.:
    http://www.nano.bilkent.edu.tr/docs/NanoBayrak_son.jpg

    Turkey as one of 15 countries in the world produceing microchips with a transitor-thickness of 0,7 microns. Left to Ataturk-Portrait there are the transistors:
    http://ntvmsnbc.com/news/156678.jpg

    Kathianne, when you read the thread subject, it is not called "Turkey getting one after another Nobel-prizes".
    So i got your statement, and you can say how often you want that Turkey is going backwards, but Turkey is going forward in major steps closeing the gap to knowledge-based societies.
    We are not yet there, but we come !
     

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