Saving The Big 3: Card Check!

[Red Dawn]

that's because right wingers know that benefits are the "hidden paycheck" if you don't think so then remove the benefits whyconcha?

So, let's include all the retirement and medical benefits of retired cops, and teachers, and conclude that current teachers in the public school system are "making" 150 thousand dollars a year.

 

[Annie]

Yeah, seriously.

Red Dawn, you'll notice I never said anywhere that that was their gross income. $70/hr is $70/hr. What's the difference if some is take home pay, and some is benefits?

The companies are still shelling out $70/hr and producing CRAP!

Right wing talking points . How about left wing SPIN?

Exactly. If I had the med coverage of UAW or US Senate, I wouldn't be waiting to see if the mole was cancerous or not. I am, because I'm still paying for previous tests, so I don't go to doctor. If I can't pay off bills by 12/31, I'll then be waiting for when I can afford the $850 deductible. I know the answer to that one. Never.

 

[WillowTree]

So, let's include all the retirement and medical benefits of retired cops, and teachers, and conclude that current teachers in the public school system are "making" 150 thousand dollars a year.

I don't know what they make.. Here, do this,, Go to the Human resources depeartment where ever you work,, and find out what your health insurance premiums will be after you retire! Pay them all on yer own and see how that works,, then give them back all your sick days, your holidays, and your vacation days,, and and give back workman's comp,, and disability insurance, and yer dental,, oh and pay them back all the contributions the company makes to yer retirement and sociable security, now add that up and tell me what you come up with..

 

[WillowTree]

Exactly. If I had the med coverage of UAW or US Senate, I wouldn't be waiting to see if the mole was cancerous or not. I am, because I'm still paying for previous tests, so I don't go to doctor. If I can't pay off bills by 12/31, I'll then be waiting for when I can afford the $850 deductible. I know the answer to that one. Never.

go get that mole checked missy,,

 

[Paulie]

So, let's include all the retirement and medical benefits of retired cops, and teachers, and conclude that current teachers in the public school system are "making" 150 thousand dollars a year.

No one ever concluded any of the UAW workers are taking home over $100,000/yr.

In this thread, I only mentioned that they are receiving $70/hr.

YOU are the one who assumed it must have meant I was saying they made that much.

The worker doesn't actually BRING HOME $70/hr in his or her pay. But the company still pays that much. THAT'S what matters.

Like I said, left wing spin. In this case, it was much more powerful than your perceived right wing talking point.

 

[Red Dawn]

I don't know what they make.. Here, do this,, Go to the Human resources depeartment where ever you work,, and find out what your health insurance premiums will be after you retire! Pay them all on yer own and see how that works,, then give them back all your sick days, your holidays, and your vacation days,, and and give back workman's comp,, and disability insurance, and yer dental,, oh and pay them back all the contributions the company makes to yer retirement and sociable security, now add that up and tell me what you come up with..

Y'all are changing the subject.

The claim was that assembly line workers "make" "$70 an hour. "

That claim was wrong, and it would be helpful to admit it was wrong, rather than change the subject.

Benefits and medical are not counted as income. Are they reported as taxable income to the IRS? No, they're not.

The assembly line skilled worker is making around 28 or 30 bucks an hours. That's a decent living, but its not outrageous. That is a hard ass job, and a skilled blue collar job. What does that come out to, maybe 60k a year? That's hardly an outrageous salary.

You could take any job, and decide to count the benefits that retirees get, and add them to current workers salaries, to make the salaries look inflated. Do you know how much money tax payers are shelling out for the retirement and medical for retired teachers and firefighters? And oddly enough, I've never heard anyone claim that teachers are "making" 70 dollars an hour, based on that deceptive little accounting tactic.

 

[Annie]

go get that mole checked missy,,

I can't. Have other things more pressing. I've very cognizant of priorities.

 

[Paulie]

Y'all are changing the subject.

The claim was that assembly line workers "make" "$70 an hour. "

That claim was wrong, and it would be helpful to admit it was wrong, rather than change the subject.

Benefits and medical are not counted as income. Are they reported as taxable income to the IRS? No, they're not.

The assembly line skilled worker is making around 28 or 30 bucks an hours. That's a decent living, but its not outrageous. That is a hard ass job, and a skilled blue collar job. What does that come out to, maybe 60k a year? That's hardly an outrageous salary.

You could take any job, and decide to count the benefits that retirees get, and add them to current workers salaries, to make the salaries look inflated. Do you know how much money tax payers are shelling out for the retirement and medical for retired teachers and firefighters? And oddly enough, I've never heard anyone claim that teachers are "making" 70 dollars an hour, based on that deceptive little accounting tactic.

This doesn't change the fact the the company is paying $70/hr. What it ultimately goes to is irrelevant.

I personally wouldn't advocate that a worker bring home less than $60k. But I would definitely advocate the benefits package be seriously reduced.

If no one's willing to compromise, then the big 3 go bye-bye. That, or we all bail them out for being incredibly inefficient. Sorry, but my tax money can be spent in better ways. I'm tired of bailing out greed.

 

[Red Dawn]

This doesn't change the fact the the company is paying $70/hr. What it ultimately goes to is irrelevant.

I personally wouldn't advocate that a worker bring home less than $60k. But I would definitely advocate the benefits package be seriously reduced.

If no one's willing to compromise, then the big 3 go bye-bye. That, or we all bail them out for being incredibly inefficient. Sorry, but my tax money can be spent in better ways. I'm tired of bailing out greed.

Your talking about labor cost.

70/ an hour is a wage. Wage and labor cost are not the same.

Labor cost is measured per employee, not per hour. Retireess don't work.

Its true that GM's labor cost per employee/retiree is probably around 150k a year per person. That's largely because of pensions and medical for retirees. That's another good argument for universal, single payer health care. German companies and Japanese companies in Japan don't have that overhead in their labor costs, and universal health care in every developed country on the planet is cheaper and more cost effective than the patchwork system we have.

If you want to talk about labor costs, the labor cost for current and retired public employees, teachers, and cops probably is well north of 100 thousand dollars per person. But, nobody makes the ridiculous claim that teachers are "making" one hundred thousand dollars a year.

 

[WillowTree]

Y'all are changing the subject.

The claim was that assembly line workers "make" "$70 an hour. "

That claim was wrong, and it would be helpful to admit it was wrong, rather than change the subject.

Benefits and medical are not counted as income. Are they reported as taxable income to the IRS? No, they're not.

The assembly line skilled worker is making around 28 or 30 bucks an hours. That's a decent living, but its not outrageous. That is a hard ass job, and a skilled blue collar job. What does that come out to, maybe 60k a year? That's hardly an outrageous salary.

You could take any job, and decide to count the benefits that retirees get, and add them to current workers salaries, to make the salaries look inflated. Do you know how much money tax payers are shelling out for the retirement and medical for retired teachers and firefighters? And oddly enough, I've never heard anyone claim that teachers are "making" 70 dollars an hour, based on that deceptive little accounting tactic.

so, you wouldn't mind giving those up?

 

[Red Dawn]

so, you wouldn't mind giving those up?

Please stay out of this conversation, somebody with 3500 posts in two months doesn't appear to have any real job or responsibilities. Please go talk about your cats, or something.


Paulitics, I would not begrudge an assembly line worker 60k a year. That is a hard ass, physically demanding high skill blue collar job. Those people probably work harder than most of us on this board, and they are on their feet all day long, not sitting on their asses like most of us.

The problem, structurally, is the enormous overhead associated with the vast army of auto industry retirees. Particulary medical benefits. And that begs the question, why is our healthcare out sourced to corporations anyway? Its not as cost effective as the healthcare delivery system in all other developed countries.

 

[USAMan1776]

It's interesting. I am enjoying this reparte about how the unions are such villians with their high labor costs. I do hope no one will forgive too the executive perks which are just as destructive to the Big 3 troubles. But I do not wish to divide this institution between these 2 faction without understanding the costs and regulations involved. And when I talk about the regulations I am referring to governmental regulations. After all it's these very regulations that constantly stifle "Good Ole American Ingenuity." Very few new innovations or decisions are allowed to pass beyond the government bureaucrats without lengthy and costly Red Tape hurdles. This refers to worker pay, executive pay, automobile cost, and almost all other costs, even right down to the cost of the stamping machine that will put the manufacturer emblem on the car (which is only allowed there with government approval.) So yes some workers will make $70.00/hr while others will make less than half of that. We all strive to make the most amount we can but when we do we are bombarded and lambasted by those who would deny that to them because they were lucky enough to land this job. And this job is definitly NOT without it's dangers (chopped limbs, infections, and even death.)
So to sum it up we have to look at the whole cost of the auto industry. With government regulation being the highest cost of building these American automobiles it's a wonder that our own media would keep so silent on this issue. Then again aren't they also required to go through government regulations to obtain their own licensing? I apologize for the excess wordiness and thank you for reading this.

 

[Paulie]

Your talking about labor cost.

70/ an hour is a wage. Wage and labor cost are not the same.

Labor cost is measured per employee, not per hour. Retireess don't work.

Its true that GM's labor cost per employee/retiree is probably around 150k a year per person. That's largely because of pensions and medical for retirees. That's another good argument for universal, single payer health care. German companies and Japanese companies in Japan don't have that overhead in their labor costs, and universal health care in every developed country on the planet is cheaper and more cost effective than the patchwork system we have.

If you want to talk about labor costs, the labor cost for current and retired public employees, teachers, and cops probably is well north of 100 thousand dollars per person. But, nobody makes the ridiculous claim that teachers are "making" one hundred thousand dollars a year.

There's a percentage of those people who are retired, and there's a percentage who are still employed. There are still too many people receiving $70/hr right now, regardless of those who are retired and only receiving $30-40/hr in their retirement benefits.

And no, it's not a good argument for universal health care. I shouldn't have to care that some company ran itself into the ground because it wanted to give its employees exorbitant wage/benefit packages it couldn't ultimately afford. That's the problem of the company, not me. It is becoming my problem NOW, that they are asking for me to shell out some of my tax dollars to prop up their greed.

It's not my responsibility to make sure people stay employed. I have a hard enough time making sure I stay employed.

And once again, I never claimed the auto workers were taking home $70/hr, which is what you seem to be implying I was saying no matter how much I tell you that you were incorrect.

Paulitics, I would not begrudge an assembly line worker 60k a year. That is a hard ass, physically demanding high skill blue collar job. Those people probably work harder than most of us on this board, and they are on their feet all day long, not sitting on their asses like most of us.

You'll see a little farther back that I agreed with this. I still think their benefits packages are excessive.

 

[WillowTree]

Please stay out of this conversation, somebody with 3500 posts in two months doesn't appear to have any real job or responsibilities. Please go talk about your cats, or something.


Paulitics, I would not begrudge an assembly line worker 60k a year. That is a hard ass, physically demanding high skill blue collar job. Those people probably work harder than most of us on this board, and they are on their feet all day long, not sitting on their asses like most of us.

The problem, structurally, is the enormous overhead associated with the vast army of auto industry retirees. Particulary medical benefits. And that begs the question, why is our healthcare out sourced to corporations anyway? Its not as cost effective as the healthcare delivery system in all other developed countries.

Newp! that's not the way it works,, just cause I don't work don't mean I cannot and have not proven you wrong.. So you willing to give en up or not???

 

[Red Dawn]

Newp! that's not the way it works,, just cause I don't work don't mean I cannot and have not proven you wrong.. So you willing to give en up or not???

Sorry, I can't talk about wages and work, with somebody who doesn't work and doesn't appear to have any responsibilities of consequence.

You've been blabbing about how lazy blue collar auto workers are, and how they should take a pay cut.

You don't even work. You have no idea if a blue collar dude or gal on the auto assembly line is worth 28 bucks and hour wage. And I'm not going to debate the value of hard, skilled, physical work with somebody who sits at home all day.

Personally, I think 60 thousand bucks a year for somebody that stands on their feet all day, and performs high skill blue collar work in a demanding physical environment is not that out of line. I'm not going to begrude them that.

 

[WillowTree]

Sorry, I can't talk about wages and work, with somebody who doesn't work and doesn't appear to have any responsibilities of consequence.

You've been blabbing about how lazy blue collar auto workers are, and how they should take a pay cut.

You don't even work. You have no idea if a blue collar dude or gal on the auto assembly line is worth 28 bucks and hour wage. And I'm not going to debate the value of hard, skilled, physical work with somebody who sits at home all day.

Personally, I think 60 thousand bucks a year for somebody that stands on their feet all day, and performs high skill blue collar work in a demanding physical environment is not that out of line. I'm not going to begrude them that.

nope! you got me mixed up with somebody else, I never said they were lazy never.


Are you absolutely sure of that?

 

[Annie]

Sorry, I can't talk about wages and work, with somebody who doesn't work and doesn't appear to have any responsibilities of consequence.

You've been blabbing about how lazy blue collar auto workers are, and how they should take a pay cut.

You don't even work. You have no idea if a blue collar dude or gal on the auto assembly line is worth 28 bucks and hour wage. And I'm not going to debate the value of hard, skilled, physical work with somebody who sits at home all day.

Personally, I think 60 thousand bucks a year for somebody that stands on their feet all day, and performs high skill blue collar work in a demanding physical environment is not that out of line. I'm not going to begrude them that.

Goody for you. I on the other hand feel that those of us with one or more post secondary degrees, need to go beyond matriculation into something productive. Mercy me. You would stop short of that, giving less than post secondary kudos and salary for 'showing up.' See a problem here?