Sarkozy Understands the Concept of American Exceptionalism

[DeadCanDance]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a MA we make an average of $45k per year, enuf said?

Fascinating. So, it appears that american teachers choose their career, in part, because even though the pay is less, they get huge amounts of time off work, and very generous retirement and health benefits. Which sounds pretty european to me: europeans choose to make less money on average than us, in exchange for more time off with their families, and a generous social safety net.

Which doesn't appear to comport with you comment about how europeans should get off their asses and work. Teachers themselves chose their career, at least in part, as a "european style" decision, if you will.

BTW: myself and every liberal I've ever talked to respects teachers, and think that in many cases they are underpaid. I've only ever seen Cons on message boards blathering about how overpaid and underworked teachers are.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fascinating. So, it appears that american teachers choose their career, in part, because even though the pay is less, they get huge amounts of time off work, and very generous retirement and health benefits. Which sounds pretty european to me: europeans choose to make less money on average than us, in exchange for more time off with their families, and a generous social safety net.

Which doesn't appear to comport with you comment about how europeans should get off their asses and work. Teachers themselves chose their career, at least in part, as a "european style" decision, if you will.

BTW: myself and every liberal I've ever talked to respects teachers, and think that in many cases they are underpaid. I've only ever seen Cons on message boards blathering about how overpaid and underworked teachers are.

Strange. I've never seen a 'con' (or anybody else for that matter) complain about teacher pay or teacher's work schedules. What I see are people complaining about teachers spending excessive time on dealing with the kids' self esteem and/or indoctrinating kids with all manner of political correctness, socialist, anti-establishment, anti-American traditional values notions while neglecting to teach kids how to read and love reading, math, basic science, basic social studies, history, literature and language arts. It is rarely the liberals, however, who make such observations.

The same people who complain about the state of education today, however, also recognize that incompetent teachers can't be blamed for all the deficiencies in education either. Broken families, single parents, break down in traditional values, and irresponsible role models have to take a whole lot of credit for that too.

In the midst of it all, we still find a few outstanding people with the skills, work ethic, and commitment to excellence who are finding ways around all the roadblocks and are still magnificently educating kids in private and parochial schools, and every now and then, even in the public schools.

Based on my limited experience to date, I'm guessing Kathianne is one of those.

 

[Annie]

Strange. I've never seen a 'con' (or anybody else for that matter) complain about teacher pay or teacher's work schedules. What I see are people complaining about teachers spending excessive time on dealing with the kids' self esteem and/or indoctrinating kids with all manner of political correctness, socialist, anti-establishment, anti-American traditional values notions while neglecting to teach kids how to read and love reading, math, basic science, basic social studies, history, literature and language arts. It is rarely the liberals, however, who make such observations.

The same people who complain about the state of education today, however, also recognize that incompetent teachers can't be blamed for all the deficiencies in education either. Broken families, single parents, break down in traditional values, and irresponsible role models have to take a whole lot of credit for that too.

In the midst of it all, we still find a few outstanding people with the skills, work ethic, and commitment to excellence who are finding ways around all the roadblocks and are still magnificently educating kids in private and parochial schools, and every now and then, even in the public schools.

Based on my limited experience to date, I'm guessing Kathianne is one of those.

Thank you! I think I've had good success with nearly all of my students. I can think of 3 I wish something had changed with, but can't get them all. As for Dead's point about pay and time; I think that teachers, especially public school teachers in the US are mostly paid a fair wage. If they worked without all the time off, they would certainly earn more.

Since I started teaching, I've only had one summer where I wasn't either working or working on post grad work. Most teachers I know do the same, increasing their income by work or schooling.

 

[Foxfyre]

Thank you! I think I've had good success with nearly all of my students. I can think of 3 I wish something had changed with, but can't get them all. As for Dead's point about pay and time; I think that teachers, especially public school teachers in the US are mostly paid a fair wage. If they worked without all the time off, they would certainly earn more.

Since I started teaching, I've only had one summer where I wasn't either working or working on post grad work. Most teachers I know do the same, increasing their income by work or schooling.

You're welcome. I suppose pay is relative in the world of public service as I too have accepted less money than I could make in the private sector.

Thinking back over some truly excellent teachers I was privileged to have, I know they made a living wage based on the way they lived, but how can we adequatelyvalue what they accomplished? In addition to being sure the kids had basic knowledge and skills, they taught kids how to learn, how to differentiate between reason/logic, and indoctrination, how to assimilate basic knowledge that would stand them in good stead their entire lives. Then they infused us with an appreciation for the unlimited opportunities set before us plus an understanding of and appreciation for excellence and helped us understand that nothing worth having can be faked or obtained without cost.

Then you wonder why those teachers make a fraction of what a drugged out rock star demonstrating horrible values makes. More than a few make less than what an incompetent teacher makes.

I think we can do better.

 

[Annie]

You're welcome. I suppose pay is relative in the world of public service as I too have accepted less money than I could make in the private sector.

Thinking back over some truly excellent teachers I was privileged to have, I know they made a living wage based on the way they lived, but how can we adequatelyvalue what they accomplished? In addition to being sure the kids had basic knowledge and skills, they taught kids how to learn, how to differentiate between reason/logic, and indoctrination, how to assimilate basic knowledge that would stand them in good stead their entire lives. Then they infused us with an appreciation for the unlimited opportunities set before us plus an understanding of and appreciation for excellence and helped us understand that nothing worth having can be faked or obtained without cost.

Then you wonder why those teachers make a fraction of what a drugged out rock star demonstrating horrible values makes. More than a few make less than what an incompetent teacher makes.

I think we can do better.

Well if we all measured what we get paid by Hollyweird or sports folks, then just about all of us are drastically under paid, they are the outliers.

There are many benefits to teaching if one wishes to do it. I look forward nearly every day to going to school, I enjoy the kids. I'm 'my own boss' in many ways, especially in private school. If it weren't for the huge difference in salaries and that I'm not married, I wouldn't trade for a public school position. I get to talk most of the time about what I'm passionate about, few jobs really do offer that.

 

[onedomino]

On that I would have to agree with you. I think Sarko is telling the French they live in a globalised economy, even within the EU. But I still admire the French for understanding that we work to live not the other way around. He may be able to cajole the French to up the working week a bit and cut back on vacation time a wee bit. But I doubt if the French would put up with the conditions of the average American worker. I mean what do you get a year, two weeks leave? That's disgraceful.

That depends entirely on your work perspective. Unlike the implication of your post that life is something we do when we are not working, there are many people in America for whom work is an intrinsic and indispensable part of their lives. Many people in America are not happy unless they are working. This has less to do with money and more to do with the psychological conditioning that the America work culture delivers to individuals. For many in America, the engine of self-esteem is work. Perhaps it is therein that American exceptionalism lies.

 

[Foxfyre]

That depends entirely on your work perspective. Unlike the implication of your post that life is something we do when we are not working, there are many people in America for whom work is an intrinsic and indispensable part of there lives. Many people in America are not happy unless they are working. This has less to do with money and more to do with the psychological conditioning that the America work culture delivers to individuals. For many in America, the engine of self-esteem is work. Perhaps it is therein that American exceptionalism lies.

Sarkozy said: ". . .both the humblest and the most illustrious citizens alike know that nothing is owed to them and that everything has to be earned. . . ." with the observation that it is this that makes America exceptional/sets it apart. (We can go with the Americans this concept actually applies to and, for now, ignore those who disagree with it.)

I think the statement, without actually saying so, is a rather profound, succinct repudiation of socialism. The American work ethic is often exceptional, but then so is the Japanese work ethic. So maybe it isn't so much that Americans work, but that Americans don't work because that is what everybody is expected to do. Americans work because they are free to aspire to unlimited goals and opportunities and this is what drive them. Such unlimited goals and opportunities are too often lacking or inhibited in socialist systems.

 

[Diuretic]

I would have thought Americans work for the same reasons as everyone else. One reason is to pay the bills. But if Americans are satisfied with a measly two weeks leave per year, then so be it.

 

[onedomino]

I would have thought Americans work for the same reasons as everyone else. One reason is to pay the bills. But if Americans are satisfied with a measly two weeks leave per year, then so be it.

The results of the American work ethic are clear. You keep your attitude and we'll keep you in our rearview mirror.

Report: U.S. Workers Are Most Productive

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070902/un_labor_productivity.html?.v=6

Sunday September 2, 11:08 pm ET
By Bradley S. Klapper, Associated Press Writer
U.N. Report: U.S. Workers Most Productive in World; Each Produces $63,885 of Wealth Per Year

GENEVA (AP) -- American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States "leads the world in labor productivity."

The average U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, followed by Luxembourg at $55,641, Belgium at $55,235 and France at $54,609.

 

[Foxfyre]

I would have thought Americans work for the same reasons as everyone else. One reason is to pay the bills. But if Americans are satisfied with a measly two weeks leave per year, then so be it.

I think you're missing the point which is that many Americans enjoy personal satisfaction, pleasure, and sense of accomplishment in their work that may or may not be typical in other cultures. The luckiest among us are in vocations that we would do for free if we could afford to do so. Of course most of us work to pay the bills, but that does not have to be the sole goal of work.

Many Americans do enjoy more than two weeks leave. Most Americans also enjoy weekends off and paid holidays in addition to vacation time. Some employers allow employees to use unused sick leave as vacation time. For myself, I am my own boss so I can take as much time off as I choose.

The fact that work is mostly a contract between employer and employee and does not include excessive mandates from the government also helps America enjoy one of the lowest unemployment rates in the free world.

 

[Annie]

and to add to onedomino's find:

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.26371,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

Happy for the Work
By Arthur C. Brooks
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2007
ARTICLES
Wall Street Journal
Publication Date: June 20, 2007

It is vacation season once again, giving occasion for the usual homilies about how Europeans are having a much better and healthier time of it than we are when it comes to work. You've heard it a thousand times: Americans "live to work," while Europeans "work to live."

By almost every measure, Europeans do work less and relax more than Americans. According to data from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, Americans work 25% more hours each year than the Norwegians or the Dutch. The average retirement age for European men is 60.5, and it's even lower for European women. Our vacations are pathetically short by comparison: The average U.S. worker takes 16 days of vacation each year, less than half that typically taken by the Germans (35 days), the French (37 days) or the Italians (42 days).

Why these differences? There are two standard explanations, neither of which casts Americans in a particularly good light. First, we are emotionally stunted. According to Time magazine, "In the puritanical version of Christianity that has always appealed to Americans, religion comes packaged with the stern message that hard work is good for the soul. Modern Europe has avoided so melancholy a lesson."

Obviously, there is a point beyond which work is excessive and lowers life quality. But within reasonable bounds, if happiness is our goal, the American formula of hard work appears to function pretty well.

Second, we are under the yoke of hard-bitten capitalism. London's Daily Telegraph reports that the heavy U.S. work effort does not result from a special affinity Americans have for work; rather, it is because we are "terrified of losing [our] jobs" in a labor environment in which workers have few of the protections Europeans enjoy.

According to either explanation of the high American work effort, we would be a lot happier if we could somehow throw off our chains--both emotionally and legally--and demand shorter work weeks, longer vacations and bulletproof tenure until our early retirements. A tidy hypothesis, to be sure--until we look at the facts.

The truth is that most Americans don't feel particularly shackled. To begin with, an amazingly high percentage of us like our jobs. Among adults who worked 10 hours a week or more in 2002, the General Social Survey (GSS) found that 89% said they were very satisfied or somewhat satisfied with their jobs. Only 11% said they were not too satisfied or not at all satisfied....

...No doubt there is great job dissatisfaction among people with low incomes and little education--the folks working in factories and on farms; the people who sell you socks and serve you lunch--right? Wrong. There is no difference at all between those with above- and below-average incomes: nine in 10 are satisfied, as are people without college degrees. 87% of people who call themselves "working class" are satisfied.

But even if we are satisfied with our jobs, might we still be happier at the beach? Imagine asking people something like this: "If you were to get enough money to live as comfortably as you would like for the rest of your life, would you continue to work or would you stop working?" Certainly a high percentage would answer in the affirmative? Wrong again: In 2002, the GSS found that number to be less than a third of all workers. And once again, there is no difference between those at different levels of income or education. 69% of working class folks say they would keep working even if they didn't have to...

...This may be one reason why Americans tend to score better than Europeans on most happiness surveys. For example, according to the 2002 International Social Survey Programme across 35 countries, 56% of Americans are "completely happy" or "very happy" with their lives, versus 44% of Danes (often cited in surveys as the happiest Europeans), 35% of the French and 31% of Germans. Those sweet five-week vacations and 35-hour workweeks don't seem to be stimulating all that much félicité. A good old-fashioned 50-hour week might be a better option...

 

[Foxfyre]

Yup, which is why many, if not most, of us don't take as much time off as we could.

 

[Diuretic]

The results of the American work ethic are clear. You keep your attitude and we'll keep you in our rearview mirror.

No worries, I'm quite happy with my six weeks leave a year. Meanwhile your serfs can dedicate their lives to making their bosses rich

 

[actsnoblemartin]

i am not a smurf

Gargamell AHHHHH

No worries, I'm quite happy with my six weeks leave a year. Meanwhile your serfs can dedicate their lives to making their bosses rich

 

[Diuretic]

I think you're missing the point which is that many Americans enjoy personal satisfaction, pleasure, and sense of accomplishment in their work that may or may not be typical in other cultures. The luckiest among us are in vocations that we would do for free if we could afford to do so. Of course most of us work to pay the bills, but that does not have to be the sole goal of work.

I'm not missing the point, I just refuse to buy bullshit. It reminds me of the criticism levelled against Fred Herzberg when he developed his Two-Factory Theory of Motivation. For the record I think he was right and I still use it in teaching. Now, the criticism was that Herzberg used engineers and accountants for his study. I do tend to think that his research would have been different if he'd used manual workers. Before I did what I'm doing now I worked in a steel mill and a shipyard. I can tell you that at knock-off time no-one stuck around to work overtime for nothing.

Many Americans do enjoy more than two weeks leave. Most Americans also enjoy weekends off and paid holidays in addition to vacation time. Some employers allow employees to use unused sick leave as vacation time. For myself, I am my own boss so I can take as much time off as I choose.

Yes, I'm aware of those things. I'm not trying to get into comparisons here, merely pointing out that it's nicer to lay on a tropical beach than sweat your guts out in a steel mill.

The fact that work is mostly a contract between employer and employee and does not include excessive mandates from the government also helps America enjoy one of the lowest unemployment rates in the free world.

I think the general health of the economy has more to do with the rate of employment than the nature of the working relationship.

 

[Diuretic]

Yup, which is why many, if not most, of us don't take as much time off as we could.

Remember that old saying about someone, on their death bed, wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

 

[DeadCanDance]

I think you're missing the point which is that many Americans enjoy personal satisfaction, pleasure, and sense of accomplishment in their work that may or may not be typical in other cultures. The luckiest among us are in vocations that we would do for free if we could afford to do so. Of course most of us work to pay the bills, but that does not have to be the sole goal of work.

Many Americans do enjoy more than two weeks leave. Most Americans also enjoy weekends off and paid holidays in addition to vacation time. Some employers allow employees to use unused sick leave as vacation time. For myself, I am my own boss so I can take as much time off as I choose.

The fact that work is mostly a contract between employer and employee and does not include excessive mandates from the government also helps America enjoy one of the lowest unemployment rates in the free world.

I think you're missing the point which is that many Americans enjoy personal satisfaction, pleasure, and sense of accomplishment in their work that may or may not be typical in other cultures.

I'm calling BS here. While there are always a few workaholics, I've never met a person in my entire life that wouldn't take MORE vacation time if they could get it, at the same pay.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

But, are you truly free in a democracy without capitalism? I think not. Under socialism the means of production are communal and the individual becomes a serf to the state.

Individuals flourish under capitalism supported by democracy. Capitalism is the moral superior to socialism/collectivism. Socialism rewards laziness while capitalism rewards hard work.

As Sarkozy said "… America did not say, "Come, and everything will be given to you." Rather, she said, "Come, and the only limits to what you will be able to achieve will be those of your own courage, your boldness, and your talent." "

first, I think you are confusing capitalism with a free market.

second, none of the systems are totally pure. You can have a large element of socialism and still live in a democracy, look at the current US.

But still, you CAN have a democracy and socialistic economy. Its just that those who are in charge of the economy are elected by the majority.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

first, I think you are confusing capitalism with a free market.

They are very closely related. Can you show me a more free market than one with capitalism?

A free market is a market where prices of goods and services are arranged completely by the mutual non-coerced consent of sellers and buyers, determined generally by the supply and demand law with no government interference in the regulation of costs, supply and demand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are all or mostly privately[1][2] owned and operated for profit, and in which investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are determined through the operation of a market economy. It is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" or corporations to trade capital goods, labor, land and money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

second, none of the systems are totally pure. You can have a large element of socialism and still live in a democracy, look at the current US.

I never said that any of the systems today are totally pure. We do have a mix of capitalism and socialism in the U.S. The tension lies between the advocacies of the two.

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that visualize a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community[1] for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by socialized (state or community) ownership of the means of production.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

But still, you CAN have a democracy and socialistic economy. Its just that those who are in charge of the economy are elected by the majority.

True, and it has been attempted, but state control of the means of production and too much central planning never seem to work very well. The decentralized system of capitalism is one of its greatest strengths.

To abandon capitalism for socialism would be a huge mistake because, as I said before, we would lose a lot of our freedom and well-being plus history has proven socialism to be a failure...even though, as you say, we may continue to be a democracy.

The Failure of Socialism and Lessons for America
by Richard M. Ebeling, March 1993

The world is watching the spectacle of Russia and the other captive nations of the former Soviet Union trying to free themselves from their seventy-five-year experiment in socialism. The bankruptcy of the system is accepted by practically everyone. The economies of the former Soviet republics are in shambles. Civil wars and ethnic violence have broken out in an increasing number of territories of the former U.S.S.R. And the quality of medical care, educational facilities and residential housing has been and is continuing to deteriorate.

The disarray, destruction and decay are the logical legacy of the application of the collectivist ideal. This ideal included three ideas:
1)the theory of a planned economy,
2)the belief in collective or group rights, and
3)the notion of socialized or state-provided social services.

During the last seventy years, the socialists had their chance to institute their ideal in many countries around the world. And in every case the result has been disastrous. Socialism in practice has produced tyranny, mass murder, poverty, corruption and cultural destruction. The rejection of socialism by the people of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union must be considered the ultimate indictment of the ideology that declared itself to be the liberator of mankind.
...
Yet here in America, at the very time that the end of socialism is heralded as the vindication of the American way of life — a way of life grounded in individual liberty, economic freedom and voluntary association — the American government, with the support of a sizable portion of the populace, continues down the road to socialism. The American people seem oblivious to the lessons to be learned from the socialist experience in other lands. And the ideas leading us further along our road to socialism are the same ones that lead other peoples to the dead-end of state control, economic stagnation, group conflict and societal decay.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0393b.asp

 

[Foxfyre]

Remember that old saying about someone, on their death bed, wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

I think those who actually enjoy their time at the office and don't work ONLY to have the luxury to spend time at the beach are the most blessed of people. If we are going to spend roughly 25% of our week at work, don't you think experiencing that time as satisfying, even enjoyable, is at least as important as time on the beach? I would be bored out of my gourd if I was spending 40 hours a week on the beach unless that is where I worked.