Sarkozy Understands the Concept of American Exceptionalism

[Shogun]

and you don't know that he ISNT a wonderful guy just because you want to blame him for the actions of some of his radical supporters.


Again, we don't take down the american presidency when an abortion clinic is bombed by a bush supporter. You cloud your judgement with so much vitriol for the sake of demonization that you can't see how your politics are any different.


You don't like it when YOU get thrown into some giant generalized lump sum so why not chill on dishing that kind of shit out?

 

[red states rule]

and you don't know that he ISNT a wonderful guy just because you want to blame him for the actions of some of his radical supporters.


Again, we don't take down the american presidency when an abortion clinic is bombed by a bush supporter. You cloud your judgement with so much vitriol for the sake of demonization that you can't see how your politics are any different.


You don't like it when YOU get thrown into some giant generalized lump sum so why not chill on dishing that kind of shit out?

Come on Shogun - he is a dictator. his police are shooting protesters - something you did not believe

Of course to the kook left the ONLY dictator in the world is Pres Bush

 

[Shogun]

that article didn't even SLIGHTLY claim that the shooters were his "police"


give me a break, dude. if you have evidence that they were then post it. Otherwise, adjust your tinfoil hat.


You think that hiding behind words like DICTATOR means anything. It doesn't convince me of anything more than your inability to debate without ad hominems. I haven't generalize you this morning at all. I invite you to stop wielding that stick and rely more on facts and evidence rather than partisan hackary.

 

[red states rule]

that article didn't even SLIGHTLY claim that the shooters were his "police"


give me a break, dude. if you have evidence that they were then post it. Otherwise, adjust your tinfoil hat.


You think that hiding behind words like DICTATOR means anything. It doesn't convince me of anything more than your inability to debate without ad hominems. I haven't generalize you this morning at all. I invite you to stop wielding that stick and rely more on facts and evidence rather than partisan hackary.

Libs bend over backwards to support a murderous dictator while wanting to impeach and slime their own elected President

Then libs wonder why they can't be taken seriously

I wonder how long you would be around Shogun if you were this critical of Hugo - your screams about your rights bing vio;ated would be laughed off right before your head was blown off

 

[mattskramer]

But, are you truly free in a democracy without capitalism? I think not. Under socialism the means of production are communal and the individual becomes a serf to the state.

Individuals flourish under capitalism supported by democracy. Capitalism is the moral superior to socialism/collectivism. Socialism rewards laziness while capitalism rewards hard work.

As Sarkozy said "… America did not say, "Come, and everything will be given to you." Rather, she said, "Come, and the only limits to what you will be able to achieve will be those of your own courage, your boldness, and your talent." "

My point was missed. Americans, in general, support Capitalism. Suppose we invade a nation and impose or promote democratic vote (free elections) for a nation. Now suppose that the citizens in that nation elect a socialist. Since, does it become our duty to go back into that nation and force a new election because we, America, do not like socialism? We like free elections but we don’t like socialism. Both may coexist. A heavily socialistic state may vote for a capitalist. Them America would cheer.

What would have happened if the election in Iraq would have resulted in a “Saddam twin” being elected – would we / should we invade Iraq again? “Look, guys. We freed you from Saddam and set up your nation so that you can vote for someone new. We did not think that you would vote for this guy. That is unacceptable to us. Vote again, and this time select the person that we want as your leader.”

 

[Shogun]

Libs bend over backwards to support a murderous dictator while wanting to impeach and slime their own elected President

Then libs wonder why they can't be taken seriously

I wonder how long you would be around Shogun if you were this critical of Hugo - your screams about your rights bing vio;ated would be laughed off right before your head was blown off

See, you didn't even REMOTELY come close to addressing the FACT that your posted article did not call the shooters anything CLOSE to hugo's police.

Indeed, spare me your lecture on who cannot be taken seriously.

MURDEROUS? do you have evidence of such or is this where we lilt back into dreamland where your acusations are as solid as proof?


again, if you can show me evidence of peoples heads being blown off insteda of playing the same old tired ass anti-commie tune then post it. You see, when it comes to your silly generalizing and bullshit accusations It's funnier to ask you to post your evidence and laugh at your empty quiver than it is getting it a lame ass shouting match.

show your cards, dude.


I dare you.

 

[red states rule]

See, you didn't even REMOTELY come close to addressing the FACT that your posted article did not call the shooters anything CLOSE to hugo's police.

Indeed, spare me your lecture on who cannot be taken seriously.

MURDEROUS? do you have evidence of such or is this where we lilt back into dreamland where your acusations are as solid as proof?


again, if you can show me evidence of peoples heads being blown off insteda of playing the same old tired ass anti-commie tune then post it. You see, when it comes to your silly generalizing and bullshit accusations It's funnier to ask you to post your evidence and laugh at your empty quiver than it is getting it a lame ass shouting match.

show your cards, dude.


I dare you.

Shogun you are really going over the deep end. For awhile we were having a good discussion, but you toss out the usual left wing defense talking points for a guy you libs cheered for when he gave his "devil" speech at the UN

His thugs shoot protesters and you give him a pass

He shuts done TV stations and newspaper that oppose him - you give him a pass

I point out how left wing nuts go to his country and pose with him for the camera and you try to dismiss it

 

[mattskramer]

Individuals flourish under capitalism supported by democracy. Capitalism is the moral superior to socialism/collectivism. Socialism rewards laziness while capitalism rewards hard work.

I think that each economic system, taken to extremes, is bad.

Healthy, intelligent, physically and mentally competent people flourish under capitalism. Yet, if you are severely mentally and physically handicapped, and if you fall onto hard times, there is a possibility that you would suffer and die in the street. I don’t want to live in a nation where there is no government help or watchdog agency what so ever. Imagine living with no FDA, and no safety commission. Can you see a place with no Center For Disease Control and no Human Service agencies? Figure stuff out for yourself, even if you are restarted, or it is just too bad.

On the other extreme, I don’t want to live in a society where all of your wealth and resources are totally redistributed. I don’t want 100 percent of my income to be evenly distributed to everyone – to those that can be productive but refuse to work, and to those who do work and are self-reliant. Such a system discourages personal growth and productivity.

There government may be corrupt, I think that there is more opportunity for corruption fraud, and creed under pure capitalism. Think about what happened when Reagan released regulation. There may have been more growth, but many people were cheated out of their savings. Pure capitalism also rewards corruption, fraud, and greed.

 

[Shogun]

Shogun you are really going over the deep end. For awhile we were having a good discussion, but you toss out the usual left wing defense talking points for a guy you libs cheered for when he gave his "devil" speech at the UN

His thugs shoot protesters and you give him a pass

He shuts done TV stations and newspaper that oppose him - you give him a pass

I point out how left wing nuts go to his country and pose with him for the camera and you try to dismiss it

until you can provide EVIDENCE to support your claims you really don't have a reason to tell anyone about the deep end. Like I said, spare me your generalized finger pointing. SHOW ME your evidence. I read it to see if it supports your accusation. What you've provided thus far does not. But you knew that before you started with the flood of typical righty bullshit, didnt you?

HIS thugs? prove it.

HIS police? prove it.

yea he gave a devil speach at the UN. LOTS OF AMERICANS FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY. Did his antagonizing prove anything besides your ability to fall for the shit talking? nope. If you think it did then PROVE IT.

You must really give a damn about sean penn's politics if it bugs you that much that he showed support for a lefty politician. SHOCKING, lemme tellya! It's almost as profound as the WSJ sucking W's cock in 04! SHOCKING.


Now, if you care to prove your accusations beyond the ghost of mccarthy-era finger pointing then I'll pay attention to you.. If you are more comforatable receding back into righty-righty land where generalized shit talking amounts to worthwile evidence then i'll pass, thanks.

 

[red states rule]

until you can provide EVIDENCE to support your claims you really don't have a reason to tell anyone about the deep end. Like I said, spare me your generalized finger pointing. SHOW ME your evidence. I read it to see if it supports your accusation. What you've provided thus far does not. But you knew that before you started with the flood of typical righty bullshit, didnt you?

HIS thugs? prove it.

HIS police? prove it.

yea he gave a devil speach at the UN. LOTS OF AMERICANS FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY. Did his antagonizing prove anything besides your ability to fall for the shit talking? nope. If you think it did then PROVE IT.

You must really give a damn about sean penn's politics if it bugs you that much that he showed support for a lefty politician. SHOCKING, lemme tellya! It's almost as profound as the WSJ sucking W's cock in 04! SHOCKING.


Now, if you care to prove your accusations beyond the ghost of mccarthy-era finger pointing then I'll pay attention to you.. If you are more comforatable receding back into righty-righty land where generalized shit talking amounts to worthwile evidence then i'll pass, thanks.

Temper Temper

You are proving my points about libs. You defend dictators and go out of your way to protect them

To libs, Hugo (and little Adolf from Iraq) seem to be a resonable and great guys since he hates Bush as much as they do

Only do not try and speak out against them lioke you do Pres Bush. Thise warm and fuzzy guys to take away your breathing privilages

 

[ScreamingEagle]

See, you didn't even REMOTELY come close to addressing the FACT that your posted article did not call the shooters anything CLOSE to hugo's police.

Here's one article that does:

Protesters Shot Dead in Venezuela; Oil Deliveries Slowed
December 7, 2002

Three demonstrators were shot dead tonight and nearly 30 were wounded when a gunman opened fire in a crowded plaza here that had become the epicenter for antigovernment protest. Opponents of President Hugo Chávez's government blamed his administration, throwing the possibility for a peaceful solution to Venezuela's turbulent political situation into turmoil.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...opics/Subjects/O/Oil (Petroleum) and Gasoline

I think that each economic system, taken to extremes, is bad.

Healthy, intelligent, physically and mentally competent people flourish under capitalism. Yet, if you are severely mentally and physically handicapped, and if you fall onto hard times, there is a possibility that you would suffer and die in the street. I don’t want to live in a nation where there is no government help or watchdog agency what so ever. Imagine living with no FDA, and no safety commission. Can you see a place with no Center For Disease Control and no Human Service agencies? Figure stuff out for yourself, even if you are restarted, or it is just too bad.

On the other extreme, I don’t want to live in a society where all of your wealth and resources are totally redistributed. I don’t want 100 percent of my income to be evenly distributed to everyone – to those that can be productive but refuse to work, and to those who do work and are self-reliant. Such a system discourages personal growth and productivity.

There government may be corrupt, I think that there is more opportunity for corruption fraud, and creed under pure capitalism. Think about what happened when Reagan released regulation. There may have been more growth, but many people were cheated out of their savings. Pure capitalism also rewards corruption, fraud, and greed.

Good points but we don't live in a pure capitalistic or socialistic society. Where we draw the line between the two is where the tension lies.

 

[Shogun]

Opponents of President Hugo Chávez's government blamed his administration


blamed? that validates the accusation that they were HIS men? HIS police? Are we surprised when political opponents point the accusing finger?

I'm looking for evidence.

Hell, look at everything that political opponents ACCUSE bush of having a hand in. Would you rather they PROVE their accusations?

 

[Diuretic]

Saddam had his Secret Police at the polling stations inspecting the ballots

Now Hugo has his thugs shooting portesters. I wonder where all the libs are now who had thier pictures taken with him

If Chavez has directed his forces to shoot protesters then yes, those are the actions of a dictator.

 

[Diuretic]

But, are you truly free in a democracy without capitalism? I think not. Under socialism the means of production are communal and the individual becomes a serf to the state.

Individuals flourish under capitalism supported by democracy. Capitalism is the moral superior to socialism/collectivism. Socialism rewards laziness while capitalism rewards hard work.

As Sarkozy said "… America did not say, "Come, and everything will be given to you." Rather, she said, "Come, and the only limits to what you will be able to achieve will be those of your own courage, your boldness, and your talent." "

I don't know if any economic system can be called superior to another. Socialism has worked, it's just that we all tend to focus on the extreme form of state-socialism such as used to be found in in the Soviet Bloc.

 

[Annie]

I don't know if any economic system can be called superior to another. Socialism has worked, it's just that we all tend to focus on the extreme form of state-socialism such as used to be found in in the Soviet Bloc.

To me it sounded as if Sarkozy doesn't see it quite that way. In fact he basically told the French people, 'want to be rich like Americans, get off the 30 hour week, 2 months vacation, and work.'

 

[Diuretic]

To me it sounded as if Sarkozy doesn't see it quite that way. In fact he basically told the French people, 'want to be rich like Americans, get off the 30 hour week, 2 months vacation, and work.'

On that I would have to agree with you. I think Sarko is telling the French they live in a globalised economy, even within the EU. But I still admire the French for understanding that we work to live not the other way around. He may be able to cajole the French to up the working week a bit and cut back on vacation time a wee bit. But I doubt if the French would put up with the conditions of the average American worker. I mean what do you get a year, two weeks leave? That's disgraceful.

 

[Foxfyre]

Do they ask the questions LuvRPgrl mentioned like why America isn't executing those people faster? I doubt it, especially since must advanced countries have outlawed capital punishment.

I don't recall a 'capital punishment question' from anybody in places I've gone, but in an extended conversation that goes beyond the weather and the immediate activities, I can imagine such a question coming up especially in countries that may not be so 'advanced'.

 

[Annie]

On that I would have to agree with you. I think Sarko is telling the French they live in a globalised economy, even within the EU. But I still admire the French for understanding that we work to live not the other way around. He may be able to cajole the French to up the working week a bit and cut back on vacation time a wee bit. But I doubt if the French would put up with the conditions of the average American worker. I mean what do you get a year, two weeks leave? That's disgraceful.

It may well be that Americans are 'different' than the rest of the world. To me and those I know, our best hope for our children is they find what they wish to do in order to earn a living, something that makes them want to get out of bed in the morning. That doesn't mean that family is not important, nor certainly not the individual, as I doubt there is a 'more individual based' country on earth, it's one of our strengths and one of our weaknesses.

We work hard and play hard. We are a restless folk, after a few days of 'rest' we tend to want to get our hands back into at least checking on our jobs. We certainly use our phones for pics, but I'd bet more for checking in. It may be Puritan work ethic, it may be anal, it may be obsessive, but I think most, at least educated fall in to this to a degree.

 

[DeadCanDance]

To me it sounded as if Sarkozy doesn't see it quite that way. In fact he basically told the French people, 'want to be rich like Americans, get off the 30 hour week, 2 months vacation, and work.'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a teacher, and don't teachers get like 3 or 4 months off a year?

 

[Annie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a teacher, and don't teachers get like 3 or 4 months off a year?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a MA we make an average of $45k per year, enuf said?