CDZ Sadly, I fear we are still one grisly step away from resolving the gun debate

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Jan 1, 2017
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It doesn't take much to see what's driving the massive increase in the nation's appetite for tighter gun control measures.
Quite simply, the Parkland shooting made it undeniably clear that the relative insulation from a host of social ills, gun violence among them, that upper-middle class and entry-level wealthy families and neighborhoods enjoy is not enough to protect them from gun violence. The Parkman shooter went into a school populated with a subset of some the nation's most fortunate kids and today, those kids are every bit as dead as whatever provincial or urban ne'er do well, and those "white picket fence" families no less aggrieved. Nonetheless, it seems that Congressional Republicans cleave to the will of the NRA, showing a profound lack of will to endure a non-A rating from the NRA.

But M. Stoneman Douglas is a public school, and though it's students/families are well-off, mostly, they aren't in the same social cohort as are the kids/families at the nation's posh day-hop schools, or worse one of the elite boarding schools nestled in the bucolic solitude of America's countrysides and having students hailing from posh families around the world. The minute, God forbid, a gunman shoots a kid(s) at any one of those schools, the gun debate will come to a screeching halt because people paying $50K+/year in tuition, nevermind room, board and activity fees and cost, will demand and receive, as with everything else, precisely the action they want to receive. The instant that happens, the blinders and gossamer veil that allows the 1% of the 1% to forbear what in their hearts they know is the spurious "guns aren't the problem."

There're "woke" folks in the donor class; there's no question about that. As yet, however, they and their "un-woke" peers have been essentially untouched by random gun violence. The donor class isn't immune to one-off shootings and other violence -- Menendez brothers, the Kalorama shooting, and so on -- but as yet elite bastions of safety and solitude have yet to have their denizens become targets of gun violence. Poor and middle class have endured gun violence of all sorts for decades; the country's economic elites have not really not, and even considering their exposure to non-random events (e.g., Arlington shooting) and special circumstances (e.g., POTUSes and the occasional political assassination mostly) not anything like an Aurora, Columbine, Parkland, etc.

I absolutely hope that nobody else will have to suffer shootings of any sort. If/when I ever hear of another mass shooting, it'll be too soon. That said, I do fear the only other thing, besides what I've described above, that will move Congress members irrevocably out of the political quagmire into which they've set themselves is the 2018 plebiscite outcome sending a clear message that a material share of the citizenry's GOP has abandoned the NRA.

Another question is whether GOP (would-be) elected office holders will pull on the NRA the same "lip service"/bait and switch stunt it pulls with the general electorate. How might they do so? Simply toe the line until it's too late for incumbents to be "primaried" in advance of the 2018 general election. That is, after all, the only thing GOP incumbents have to fear from the NRA. After that, they can quickly pass whatever gun control they can come up with and watch for two years as the NRA tries to convince people that whatever got passed should be repealed. That's two years to put the NRA on the defensive, two years to watch the NRA challenge the legislation in the SCOTUS (a really risky gambit, especially if it comes before 2020, because Dems and Progressive Indies have a material headcount advantage), etc.
 
It doesn't take much to see what's driving the massive increase in the nation's appetite for tighter gun control measures.
Quite simply, the Parkland shooting made it undeniably clear that the relative insulation from a host of social ills, gun violence among them, that upper-middle class and entry-level wealthy families and neighborhoods enjoy is not enough to protect them from gun violence. The Parkman shooter went into a school populated with a subset of some the nation's most fortunate kids and today, those kids are every bit as dead as whatever provincial or urban ne'er do well, and those "white picket fence" families no less aggrieved. Nonetheless, it seems that Congressional Republicans cleave to the will of the NRA, showing a profound lack of will to endure a non-A rating from the NRA.

But M. Stoneman Douglas is a public school, and though it's students/families are well-off, mostly, they aren't in the same social cohort as are the kids/families at the nation's posh day-hop schools, or worse one of the elite boarding schools nestled in the bucolic solitude of America's countrysides and having students hailing from posh families around the world. The minute, God forbid, a gunman shoots a kid(s) at any one of those schools, the gun debate will come to a screeching halt because people paying $50K+/year in tuition, nevermind room, board and activity fees and cost, will demand and receive, as with everything else, precisely the action they want to receive. The instant that happens, the blinders and gossamer veil that allows the 1% of the 1% to forbear what in their hearts they know is the spurious "guns aren't the problem."

There're "woke" folks in the donor class; there's no question about that. As yet, however, they and their "un-woke" peers have been essentially untouched by random gun violence. The donor class isn't immune to one-off shootings and other violence -- Menendez brothers, the Kalorama shooting, and so on -- but as yet elite bastions of safety and solitude have yet to have their denizens become targets of gun violence. Poor and middle class have endured gun violence of all sorts for decades; the country's economic elites have not really not, and even considering their exposure to non-random events (e.g., Arlington shooting) and special circumstances (e.g., POTUSes and the occasional political assassination mostly) not anything like an Aurora, Columbine, Parkland, etc.

I absolutely hope that nobody else will have to suffer shootings of any sort. If/when I ever hear of another mass shooting, it'll be too soon. That said, I do fear the only other thing, besides what I've described above, that will move Congress members irrevocably out of the political quagmire into which they've set themselves is the 2018 plebiscite outcome sending a clear message that a material share of the citizenry's GOP has abandoned the NRA.

Another question is whether GOP (would-be) elected office holders will pull on the NRA the same "lip service"/bait and switch stunt it pulls with the general electorate. How might they do so? Simply toe the line until it's too late for incumbents to be "primaried" in advance of the 2018 general election. That is, after all, the only thing GOP incumbents have to fear from the NRA. After that, they can quickly pass whatever gun control they can come up with and watch for two years as the NRA tries to convince people that whatever got passed should be repealed. That's two years to put the NRA on the defensive, two years to watch the NRA challenge the legislation in the SCOTUS (a really risky gambit, especially if it comes before 2020, because Dems and Progressive Indies have a material headcount advantage), etc.
Tighter gun Laws like the Gun Free Zone in that Florida School?

when-seconds-count-the-police-are-only-minutes-away-n.jpg
 
It doesn't take much to see what's driving the massive increase in the nation's appetite for tighter gun control measures.
Quite simply, the Parkland shooting made it undeniably clear that the relative insulation from a host of social ills, gun violence among them, that upper-middle class and entry-level wealthy families and neighborhoods enjoy is not enough to protect them from gun violence. The Parkman shooter went into a school populated with a subset of some the nation's most fortunate kids and today, those kids are every bit as dead as whatever provincial or urban ne'er do well, and those "white picket fence" families no less aggrieved. Nonetheless, it seems that Congressional Republicans cleave to the will of the NRA, showing a profound lack of will to endure a non-A rating from the NRA.

But M. Stoneman Douglas is a public school, and though it's students/families are well-off, mostly, they aren't in the same social cohort as are the kids/families at the nation's posh day-hop schools, or worse one of the elite boarding schools nestled in the bucolic solitude of America's countrysides and having students hailing from posh families around the world. The minute, God forbid, a gunman shoots a kid(s) at any one of those schools, the gun debate will come to a screeching halt because people paying $50K+/year in tuition, nevermind room, board and activity fees and cost, will demand and receive, as with everything else, precisely the action they want to receive. The instant that happens, the blinders and gossamer veil that allows the 1% of the 1% to forbear what in their hearts they know is the spurious "guns aren't the problem."

There're "woke" folks in the donor class; there's no question about that. As yet, however, they and their "un-woke" peers have been essentially untouched by random gun violence. The donor class isn't immune to one-off shootings and other violence -- Menendez brothers, the Kalorama shooting, and so on -- but as yet elite bastions of safety and solitude have yet to have their denizens become targets of gun violence. Poor and middle class have endured gun violence of all sorts for decades; the country's economic elites have not really not, and even considering their exposure to non-random events (e.g., Arlington shooting) and special circumstances (e.g., POTUSes and the occasional political assassination mostly) not anything like an Aurora, Columbine, Parkland, etc.

I absolutely hope that nobody else will have to suffer shootings of any sort. If/when I ever hear of another mass shooting, it'll be too soon. That said, I do fear the only other thing, besides what I've described above, that will move Congress members irrevocably out of the political quagmire into which they've set themselves is the 2018 plebiscite outcome sending a clear message that a material share of the citizenry's GOP has abandoned the NRA.

Another question is whether GOP (would-be) elected office holders will pull on the NRA the same "lip service"/bait and switch stunt it pulls with the general electorate. How might they do so? Simply toe the line until it's too late for incumbents to be "primaried" in advance of the 2018 general election. That is, after all, the only thing GOP incumbents have to fear from the NRA. After that, they can quickly pass whatever gun control they can come up with and watch for two years as the NRA tries to convince people that whatever got passed should be repealed. That's two years to put the NRA on the defensive, two years to watch the NRA challenge the legislation in the SCOTUS (a really risky gambit, especially if it comes before 2020, because Dems and Progressive Indies have a material headcount advantage), etc.
Interesting.
Of course, there are actually VOTERS who will look for high marks ratings from the NRA. We can't forget that a lot of people, including the ones at my local diner, hate the idea of banning weapons. They don't give two shits about the NRA and most don't throw away $140 on membership dues; the NRA is speaking for them. The politicians could of course take the NRA's money and then do what they please, but the next election will be their swan song. Most politicians seems pretty bent on making their positions career length spots. Maybe we can get some "kamakaze" Republicans to run who spout fire and brimstone gun rights during their campaign and then vote for gun control. I don't think there will be a lot of takers, though.
 
Maybe, just maybe, people are uninterested in new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to do nothing but disarm the good guy/gals and empower the bad guys/gals. Maybe any further dialog should be about finding a solution that actually addresses the problem. "Gun free" areas were supposed to be the answer but have only served to attract crazies and terrorists.
 
Maybe, just maybe, people are uninterested in new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to do nothing but disarm the good guy/gals and empower the bad guys/gals. Maybe any further dialog should be about finding a solution that actually addresses the problem. "Gun free" areas were supposed to be the answer but have only served to attract crazies and terrorists.
...new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to....
And yet you'd have us -- solely on the basis of your say-so, no less -- take the remainder of your assertions and speculations as both plausible and probable.

rotflmao.gif

It clearly escapes you that, by definition, that which is new has not at all been proven. That is part and parcel to the very substance of the meaning of the word "new."
 
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Please ... please ... please ...

Make gun confiscation an issue in the 2018/2020 election season.

please.jpg
 
Let the record show libs have not proposed anything to improve safety of schools other than gun confiscation. If more happen look in the mirror for the guilty.
 
Off-Topic:
I'm responding to your post out of courtesy. What any political party has or has not proposed to enhance school safety isn't the thread's discussion topic because the temporal context of the thread topic is forward looking not backward looking.

Just so you are aware, the broad topic of the thread is how far or near we are to resolving the gun debate and what will or will not have to occur for a definitive resolution to come about. I expressed in the OP what I think it'll take to arrive at a resolution. If you have a similar or different idea of what will effect a resolution, then please do share it.

Let the record show libs have not proposed anything to improve safety of schools other than gun confiscation. If more happen look in the mirror for the guilty.
That is clearly not so:
The examples above are but the "tip if of the iceberg." Of course, individuals whose eyes are directed "landward" won't observe even that.​
 
Off-Topic:
I'm responding to your post out of courtesy. What any political party has or has not proposed to enhance school safety isn't the thread's discussion topic because the temporal context of the thread topic is forward looking not backward looking.

Just so you are aware, the broad topic of the thread is how far or near we are to resolving the gun debate and what will or will not have to occur for a definitive resolution to come about. I expressed in the OP what I think it'll take to arrive at a resolution. If you have a similar or different idea of what will effect a resolution, then please do share it.

Let the record show libs have not proposed anything to improve safety of schools other than gun confiscation. If more happen look in the mirror for the guilty.
That is clearly not so:
The examples above are but the "tip if of the iceberg." Of course, individuals whose eyes are directed "landward" won't observe even that.​
The way to resolve the gun issue.
1. get rid of all the miserable Liberals(that means all of them) either by execution or by deporting them to Cuba, the socialist utopian paradise they all crave. When they are gone, the rest of the United States citizens(not illegals) can now have Life, Liberty and Pursuit of happiness, because those miserable wretches aren't there complaining and shooting anymore.
 
Maybe, just maybe, people are uninterested in new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to do nothing but disarm the good guy/gals and empower the bad guys/gals. Maybe any further dialog should be about finding a solution that actually addresses the problem. "Gun free" areas were supposed to be the answer but have only served to attract crazies and terrorists.
...new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to....
And yet you'd have us -- solely on the basis of your say-so, no less -- take the remainder of your assertions and speculations as both plausible and probable.

rotflmao.gif

It clearly escapes you that, by definition, that which is new has not at all been proven. That is part and parcel to the very substance of the meaning of the word "new."

Apparently sarcasm-as well as current events for the last 4--5 decades-escapes you. And my assertions and speculations are most certainly more plausible and probable than your OP. Why do you think I would bother with supporting evidence when you ignored it when I did present it to you in your OP in the "I don't understand..." thread and disproved some of your assertions in the doing. If you actually wanted a discussion as you have claimed, why don't you discuss instead of running away?
 
Off-Topic:
I'm responding to your post out of courtesy. What any political party has or has not proposed to enhance school safety isn't the thread's discussion topic because the temporal context of the thread topic is forward looking not backward looking.

Just so you are aware, the broad topic of the thread is how far or near we are to resolving the gun debate and what will or will not have to occur for a definitive resolution to come about. I expressed in the OP what I think it'll take to arrive at a resolution. If you have a similar or different idea of what will effect a resolution, then please do share it.

Let the record show libs have not proposed anything to improve safety of schools other than gun confiscation. If more happen look in the mirror for the guilty.
That is clearly not so:
The examples above are but the "tip if of the iceberg." Of course, individuals whose eyes are directed "landward" won't observe even that.​
Honestly your op sounded like an action plan for accomplishing your stated goal. Don't do anything to make schools safer and hold out until the right people get killed and again try to capitalize on it.
Your op pre-supposes inaction to make schools safer because of NRA so liberals clinging to their Hardline position is part of the discussion.
 
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Maybe, just maybe, people are uninterested in new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to do nothing but disarm the good guy/gals and empower the bad guys/gals. Maybe any further dialog should be about finding a solution that actually addresses the problem. "Gun free" areas were supposed to be the answer but have only served to attract crazies and terrorists.
...new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to....
And yet you'd have us -- solely on the basis of your say-so, no less -- take the remainder of your assertions and speculations as both plausible and probable.

rotflmao.gif

It clearly escapes you that, by definition, that which is new has not at all been proven. That is part and parcel to the very substance of the meaning of the word "new."

Apparently sarcasm-as well as current events for the last 4--5 decades-escapes you. And my assertions and speculations are most certainly more plausible and probable than your OP. Why do you think I would bother with supporting evidence when you ignored it when I did present it to you in your OP in the "I don't understand..." thread and disproved some of your assertions in the doing. If you actually wanted a discussion as you have claimed, why don't you discuss instead of running away?
Why do you think I would bother with supporting evidence when you ignored it when I did present it to you in your OP in the "I don't understand..."
??? It was clear to me then and it remains clear that you didn't understand (1) the rhetorical point of the OP in that thread and (2) what the hell I requested; consequently, you provided content that answers a question that wasn't being asked. You could have provided literally all the supporting evidence in the world and it still would not have addressed the actual question I posed. I ignored most of what you had to say because you're 70 years-old and didn't address the central question of that thread.

As I made clear to another member, the point of the OP in that thread is this:
I'm in [the "I do not understand"] thread seeking credible input on what motivates the elasticity and substitution conclusions consumers obtain when demanding (effective and latent) semi-automatic rifles.
To avoid the formal and precise language of economics, I, in that thread's OP, I expressed the central question in layman's terms and as a statement, thinking that readers could from that statement derive what must necessarily be the question the thread entreats them to answer.
I'm baffled at the existential fascination gun enthusiasts have with semi-automatic rifles.
The entirety of the remainder of that OP is nothing other than my sharing broadly the nature of what I'd observed in seeking the answer to my question.

What you did was share different observations and challenge the ones I shared. That's all well and good, but that those observations can and do exist -- yours or mine -- does not answer the central question:
  • In layman's terms: "Why are folks so fascinated with semi-automatic rifles?"
  • In economic terms: "What motivates the elasticity and substitution conclusions consumers obtain when demanding (effective and latent) semi-automatic rifles?"
If one doesn't have an answer to the question, well, one just doesn't. I don't have an answer to it, so I'm not going to ridicule someone else for not having an answer to it. If one wants to post and say "I don't know the answer to your question," that's fine too. But don't sit there feeling dejected because I didn't respond to your remarks that don't answer the thread question. Yes, the question was tacitly posed, but still, you're 70 year-old; it shouldn't have overtaxed your abilities to get from a statement to a question.

Hell, in your first post in that thread, you deigned to tell me with what consumer sub-groups certain firearms are popular. Why you did so is beyond me, for my OP made it clear that I already knew that semi-automatic rifles are popular. With whom they are popular is irrelevant to that thread's central question unless one/you show (credibly, not just your say-so) that the specific people or consumer sub-groups with whom they are popular are the people driving demand for item under consideration (in that thread's case, semi-automatic rifles).
"Semiautomatic" is a term used to describe a firing mechanism in which a single round is fired for each pull of the trigger and may describe rifles pistols or shotguns. They are popular with the military police hunters and competition shooters and have been for quite a long time. They are especially popular in handguns used by military police and defensive civilian carry weapons. They are popular shotguns for hunting rabbits waterfowl and upland birds and in rifles for hunting varmints squirrels hogs and deer.

Absent providing input that explains why folks are so fascinated with semi-automatic rifles, one might also have shown that the premise of the question -- that folks are fascinated with semi-automatic rifles -- is not true. Such a tack would be very difficult to credibly take, but it's an option and effectively showing the inaccuracy of the question's implicit premise does directly address the question.

Lastly, your notion of providing credible support for things and mine are clearly very different. I can sit here and attest to being an expert in the fields in which I am; however, insofar as I don't care to yield the freedom from professional controversy I here enjoy on account of my anonymity, I am not going to identify myself and point folks to my publications and achievements. Because I'm not going to offer anyone here a means for verifying my status as an expert in a few disciplines, when I'm assert something about a matter for which I am an expert, I nonetheless provide links to credible references rather than bidding readers to rely on my say-so. I do that because as an expert, it's no trouble at all for me to do so -- 30 seconds to a minute is all it takes because I know exactly what I'm looking for, the names of authors (researchers) who've written about the matter, etc. Truly, the majority of those few seconds is spent finding a document that's available in the public domain and that doesn't require one to purchase it.

Contrast that with what you did. You undertook to tell me about all your experience with guns and bid me to take your word for it.
I am about to be 70 y/o. I have hunted since the age of 12 And taken game with pretty much all types of weapons including bow and arrow,spear, flintlock and percussion muzzleloaders, single-shot, bolt action, pump, multi-barrel, and semiautomatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns. In the Army I qualified as expert with the M-16 rifle and also with the 1911A1 .45ACP pistol and as sharpshooter with the M-14 rifle. In Vietnam I carried the M-16A1 and .45 pistol into combat and survived. Later on I acted as training Sgt., range safety NCO, company armorer, and capt. of the rifle/pistol team Later as a civilian at various times I engaged in (low level) competition with archery equipment, muzzle loaders, smallbore and military rifle, and handguns..I have to think that I have a fairly well informed opinion concerning most subjects related to firearms and their use.
Quite simply, I cannot verify any of that. But I'm not insisting that you provide the means for me to do so. Documentary support published by other experts and that I can read will do just fine. Indeed, that approach, when well executed, can obviate the need for you (or anyone) to be a widely acknowledged expert. But here's the key: experts on "whatever" don't generally misconstrue what be the central question being asked and, in turn, answer a question that's not been asked. There is, however, one genre of sometimes-experts who do that: politicians.
 
Maybe, just maybe, people are uninterested in new and improved gun control laws because they have been well and truly proven to do nothing but disarm the good guy/gals and empower the bad guys/gals. Maybe any further dialog should be about finding a solution that actually addresses the problem. "Gun free" areas were supposed to be the answer but have only served to attract crazies and terrorists.

But it wasn't a gun free area, there was a guy with a gun. He just couldn't stop the other guy with the gun.
 
Honestly your op sounded like an action plan for accomplishing your stated goal. Don't do anything to make schools safer and hold out until the right people get killed and again try to capitalize on it.
Your op pre-supposes inaction to make schools safer because of NRA so liberals clinging to their Hardline position is part of the discussion.

It could simply suggest that if knee-jerk reactionary politics is going to be the way that what the poster deems to be effective gun control measures are enacted ...
It probably won't see substantial success until someone shoots up the elite's or politician's children.

The OP made a fair point looking forward and in respects to accomplishing goal ... And offering a process they deem would be more effective.

.
 
Off-Topic:
I'm responding to your post out of courtesy. What any political party has or has not proposed to enhance school safety isn't the thread's discussion topic because the temporal context of the thread topic is forward looking not backward looking.

Just so you are aware, the broad topic of the thread is how far or near we are to resolving the gun debate and what will or will not have to occur for a definitive resolution to come about. I expressed in the OP what I think it'll take to arrive at a resolution. If you have a similar or different idea of what will effect a resolution, then please do share it.

Let the record show libs have not proposed anything to improve safety of schools other than gun confiscation. If more happen look in the mirror for the guilty.
That is clearly not so:
The examples above are but the "tip if of the iceberg." Of course, individuals whose eyes are directed "landward" won't observe even that.​
Honestly your op sounded like an action plan for accomplishing your stated goal. Don't do anything to make schools safer and hold out until the right people get killed and again try to capitalize on it.
Your op pre-supposes inaction to make schools safer because of NRA so liberals clinging to their Hardline position is part of the discussion.
your op sounded like an action plan
How you drew that as the rhetorical purpose of the OP is beyond me. Tijn Von Ingersleben very aptly, perfectly in fact, summarized in post 3 the theme upon which the OP is an exposition that applies that theme specifically to the matter of unlawful gun use.
 
Honestly your op sounded like an action plan for accomplishing your stated goal. Don't do anything to make schools safer and hold out until the right people get killed and again try to capitalize on it.
Your op pre-supposes inaction to make schools safer because of NRA so liberals clinging to their Hardline position is part of the discussion.

It could simply suggest that if knee-jerk reactionary politics is going to be the way that what the poster deems to be effective gun control measures are enacted ...
It probably won't see substantial success until someone shoots up the elite's or politician's children.

The OP made a fair point looking forward and in respects to accomplishing goal ... And offering a process they deem would be more effective.

.
Treachery by repub pols....say one thing do another .....what a bright future the country will have under such a system. Reason we are where we are on many issues is duplicity in Congress.
 
Off-Topic:
I'm responding to your post out of courtesy. What any political party has or has not proposed to enhance school safety isn't the thread's discussion topic because the temporal context of the thread topic is forward looking not backward looking.

Just so you are aware, the broad topic of the thread is how far or near we are to resolving the gun debate and what will or will not have to occur for a definitive resolution to come about. I expressed in the OP what I think it'll take to arrive at a resolution. If you have a similar or different idea of what will effect a resolution, then please do share it.

Let the record show libs have not proposed anything to improve safety of schools other than gun confiscation. If more happen look in the mirror for the guilty.
That is clearly not so:
The examples above are but the "tip if of the iceberg." Of course, individuals whose eyes are directed "landward" won't observe even that.​
Honestly your op sounded like an action plan for accomplishing your stated goal. Don't do anything to make schools safer and hold out until the right people get killed and again try to capitalize on it.
Your op pre-supposes inaction to make schools safer because of NRA so liberals clinging to their Hardline position is part of the discussion.
your op sounded like an action plan
How you drew that as the rhetorical purpose of the OP is beyond me. Tijn Von Ingersleben very aptly, perfectly in fact, summarized in post 3 the theme upon which the OP is an exposition that applies that theme specifically to the matter of unlawful gun use.
How you can't see it is beyond me. There are actions that can be taken now to prevent this thus making the op mute. Democrats don't want that...thus it would seem they prefer the latter
 

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