sacred ground?

[strollingbones]

Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons


Opponents of a proposed lower Manhattan mosque and community center speak in hushed tones about the sanctity of the "shadow of Ground Zero."

Tell that to the patrons of the Pussycat Lounge, a strip club where a photo of a nearly naked woman marks its location just two blocks from where the World Trade Center stood.

Or the Thunder Lingerie and peep show next door, where the marquee sports an American flag above a window display of sex toys and something called a "power pump."

Many come to the scene of the worst terrorist attack on American soil to pay tribute to pain and unspeakable tragedy. They're welcomed by solemn memorials and a visitors center amid the noise of reconstruction.

If they're so inclined, they can also buy porn, play the ponies and take care of all manner of personal business within steps of the former World Trade Center.

In a walk of the streets within three blocks of Ground Zero, the Daily News counted 17 pizza shops, 18 bank branches, 11 bars, 10 shoe stores and 17 separate salons where a girl can get her lady parts groomed



Read more: Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons

so porn shops are acceptable but a mosque is not?

 

[Big Black Dog]

I hear what you're saying... If you've ever been to Washington, D.C. it's very similar. Bars, strip clubs, and really dirty crummy streets just blocks from the Capital. Fine example for the capital city of our country.

 

[goldcatt]

"Yeah, but porn peddlers, hookers, strippers, drunks and gamblers don't run around beheading people all day" in 3...2...1......

 

[Zoom-boing]

It may be sacred ground, but the streets surrounding Ground Zero are also a place where New Yorkers work, eat and buy shampoo.

"Ground Zero is pizza, cafes and apartments," said Nick Champa, 21, a lower Manhattan student who says he opposes the proposed mosque, but would like to see better bars and restaurants in his neighborhood.

It's one thing to see liquor stores in a neighborhood trying to return to normalcy - there are at least three - but critics say it's entirely another to talk about a mega-mosque.

"A 13-story, $100 million structure stands out as something that can be opposed," said Rep. Pete King (R-L.I.).

He says the mosque planners should sit down with the families of 9/11 victims to find a more appropriate location and suggested that conversation could kick-start a larger discussion about what belongs in the area and what doesn't.

King says zoning laws could be used to clean up lower Manhattan the way they were once used to attack smut in Times Square.

"There are limits to what you can be opposing just as a practical matter," King said, but he added, "Tomorrow, if some guy were to build some eight-story strip club a block away, we would do what we'd have to do."

Critics have been reluctant to draw a line in the sand around the sacred area, but some say that's not the point.

"I don't have an interest in policing every square inch of lower Manhattan to purify it," said Debra Burlingame, spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks. "We're trying to prevent an imam from appropriating 9/11 to push [Islamic law] in America, an ideology at the heart of why our loved ones were ripped to pieces."

Read more: Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons

The two bolded sentences are why people don't want a mosque built there.

Why doesn't the imam take up Gov. Paterson's offer of an alternative site? Why are they dead set on building there ?

 

[goldcatt]

It may be sacred ground, but the streets surrounding Ground Zero are also a place where New Yorkers work, eat and buy shampoo.

"Ground Zero is pizza, cafes and apartments," said Nick Champa, 21, a lower Manhattan student who says he opposes the proposed mosque, but would like to see better bars and restaurants in his neighborhood.

It's one thing to see liquor stores in a neighborhood trying to return to normalcy - there are at least three - but critics say it's entirely another to talk about a mega-mosque.

"A 13-story, $100 million structure stands out as something that can be opposed," said Rep. Pete King (R-L.I.).

He says the mosque planners should sit down with the families of 9/11 victims to find a more appropriate location and suggested that conversation could kick-start a larger discussion about what belongs in the area and what doesn't.

King says zoning laws could be used to clean up lower Manhattan the way they were once used to attack smut in Times Square.

"There are limits to what you can be opposing just as a practical matter," King said, but he added, "Tomorrow, if some guy were to build some eight-story strip club a block away, we would do what we'd have to do."

Critics have been reluctant to draw a line in the sand around the sacred area, but some say that's not the point.

"I don't have an interest in policing every square inch of lower Manhattan to purify it," said Debra Burlingame, spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks. "We're trying to prevent an imam from appropriating 9/11 to push [Islamic law] in America, an ideology at the heart of why our loved ones were ripped to pieces."

Read more: Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons

The two bolded sentences are why people don't want a mosque built there.

Why doesn't the imam take up Gov. Paterson's offer of an alternative site? Why are they dead set on building there ?

They purchased that piece of property with the specific purpose of building a community center inlcuding a place of worship and hopefully to spark a dialog. They had to know some of that dialog would be ugly...but why go become tenants of the State when they own a perfectly good piece of (very expensive) real estate of their own?

Nope, I can see why they turned it down.

What I want to know is why do some people think they have less right to have a pool and Bingo night 2 blocks from Ground Zero than a strip club has operating across the street?

If it's sacred ground to be honored, how do you really feel we should be honoring it? Honest question there, and one most people duck.

 

[Skull Pilot]

the more people complain about the mosque, the more it will seem like a victory to the idiot islamics.

 

[Zoom-boing]

It may be sacred ground, but the streets surrounding Ground Zero are also a place where New Yorkers work, eat and buy shampoo.

"Ground Zero is pizza, cafes and apartments," said Nick Champa, 21, a lower Manhattan student who says he opposes the proposed mosque, but would like to see better bars and restaurants in his neighborhood.

It's one thing to see liquor stores in a neighborhood trying to return to normalcy - there are at least three - but critics say it's entirely another to talk about a mega-mosque.

"A 13-story, $100 million structure stands out as something that can be opposed," said Rep. Pete King (R-L.I.).

He says the mosque planners should sit down with the families of 9/11 victims to find a more appropriate location and suggested that conversation could kick-start a larger discussion about what belongs in the area and what doesn't.

King says zoning laws could be used to clean up lower Manhattan the way they were once used to attack smut in Times Square.

"There are limits to what you can be opposing just as a practical matter," King said, but he added, "Tomorrow, if some guy were to build some eight-story strip club a block away, we would do what we'd have to do."

Critics have been reluctant to draw a line in the sand around the sacred area, but some say that's not the point.

"I don't have an interest in policing every square inch of lower Manhattan to purify it," said Debra Burlingame, spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks. "We're trying to prevent an imam from appropriating 9/11 to push [Islamic law] in America, an ideology at the heart of why our loved ones were ripped to pieces."

Read more: Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons

The two bolded sentences are why people don't want a mosque built there.

Why doesn't the imam take up Gov. Paterson's offer of an alternative site? Why are they dead set on building there ?

They purchased that piece of property with the specific purpose of building a community center inlcuding a place of worship and hopefully to spark a dialog. They had to know some of that dialog would be ugly...but why go become tenants of the State when they own a perfectly good piece of (very expensive) real estate of their own?
Nope, I can see why they turned it down.

Paterson says state officials are exploring selling land, transferring it, or swapping it with the mosque developers; they wouldn't be tenants of the state. In light of how sensitive this whole issue is, why are they so adamant about building there?

What I want to know is why do some people think they have less right to have a pool and Bingo night 2 blocks from Ground Zero than a strip club has operating across the street?

If it's sacred ground to be honored, how do you really feel we should be honoring it? Honest question there, and one most people duck.

Well, they could start with getting the memorial built.

 

[martybegan]

"Yeah, but porn peddlers, hookers, strippers, drunks and gamblers don't run around beheading people all day" in 3...2...1......

Not beheading, but they werent the people who flew the planes into the buildings.

This is a matter of perception. Let me say first that legally there is no real way of stopping them short of them doing something against the building code. (Building codes outweigh the first amendments, or churches could do whatever the hell they wanted.)

Islam has a long history, shared by early crudader Christianity of marking scenes of victory by building a Mosque/Church on or near the site.

The opposition would be better served by making it known that there will be a protest outside of the community center EVERY DAY the place is open. They should, in careful terms, express the reasons of thier opposition.

The motives of the community center's founder to me are coming more and more into question. if he truly is looking for discussion and reconcillation, wouldn't he be influenced by the negative repsonse he is seeing from so many people? Doesnt he realize that continuing to press for the center at that location is not serving for healing and discourse, but for more angst and argument?

Of course if his true motive is actually to mark this a victory for Islam, then is stubbornness makes sense.

 

[goldcatt]

Read more: Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons

The two bolded sentences are why people don't want a mosque built there.

Why doesn't the imam take up Gov. Paterson's offer of an alternative site? Why are they dead set on building there ?

They purchased that piece of property with the specific purpose of building a community center inlcuding a place of worship and hopefully to spark a dialog. They had to know some of that dialog would be ugly...but why go become tenants of the State when they own a perfectly good piece of (very expensive) real estate of their own?
Nope, I can see why they turned it down.

Paterson says state officials are exploring selling land, transferring it, or swapping it with the mosque developers; they wouldn't be tenants of the state. In light of how sensitive this whole issue is, why are they so adamant about building there?

What I want to know is why do some people think they have less right to have a pool and Bingo night 2 blocks from Ground Zero than a strip club has operating across the street?

If it's sacred ground to be honored, how do you really feel we should be honoring it? Honest question there, and one most people duck.

Well, they could start with getting the memorial built.

"Exploring". There's your key word. What are the relative values? What are the actual terms of the deal? What about the site the State may or may not offer makes it more fit for the intended purpose other than its location gets fewer people's panties in a bunch? Are the property owners assured they will get the benefit of their bargain? I do real estate, a hypothetical with no guarantee of conveyance and no concrete material terms is not a bona fide offer. And Patterson cannot, legally, make that offer anyway.

I agree 100% about building the memorial already. It's only been almost 9 years. But why isn't it built?

 

[goldcatt]

"Yeah, but porn peddlers, hookers, strippers, drunks and gamblers don't run around beheading people all day" in 3...2...1......

Not beheading, but they werent the people who flew the planes into the buildings.

This is a matter of perception. Let me say first that legally there is no real way of stopping them short of them doing something against the building code. (Building codes outweigh the first amendments, or churches could do whatever the hell they wanted.)

Islam has a long history, shared by early crudader Christianity of marking scenes of victory by building a Mosque/Church on or near the site.

The opposition would be better served by making it known that there will be a protest outside of the community center EVERY DAY the place is open. They should, in careful terms, express the reasons of thier opposition.

The motives of the community center's founder to me are coming more and more into question. if he truly is looking for discussion and reconcillation, wouldn't he be influenced by the negative repsonse he is seeing from so many people? Doesnt he realize that continuing to press for the center at that location is not serving for healing and discourse, but for more angst and argument?

Of course if his true motive is actually to mark this a victory for Islam, then is stubbornness makes sense.

I was making fun of some of the loonier troll claims out there.

And you're right, people have every right to protest. They have every right to question motive. I feel for the people who can't seem to move on, I get it. 9/11 was painful. We all lost something that day, something that we haven't ever really talked about, defined or figured out how to move forward together from. It makes honest dialogue tough. And it breeds suspicion, of "them" and of each other. If protesting helps, protest away!

What they don't have is the right to tear up the Constitution.

 

[Zoom-boing]

"Exploring". There's your key word. What are the relative values? What are the actual terms of the deal? What about the site the State may or may not offer makes it more fit for the intended purpose other than its location gets fewer people's panties in a bunch? Are the property owners assured they will get the benefit of their bargain? I do real estate, a hypothetical with no guarantee of conveyance and no concrete material terms is not a bona fide offer. And Patterson cannot, legally, make that offer anyway.

Agreed. But If they are truly interested in fostering good will, why not explore it and see if something could be worked out that is fair? Seems like a slap in the face building a mosque (and the imam's funding/intentions/loyalties are questionable) two blocks from where WTC stood.

I agree 100% about building the memorial already. It's only been almost 9 years. But why isn't it built?

I have no clue. Seems totally ridiculous to me that something wasn't built several years ago.

 

[goldcatt]

"Exploring". There's your key word. What are the relative values? What are the actual terms of the deal? What about the site the State may or may not offer makes it more fit for the intended purpose other than its location gets fewer people's panties in a bunch? Are the property owners assured they will get the benefit of their bargain? I do real estate, a hypothetical with no guarantee of conveyance and no concrete material terms is not a bona fide offer. And Patterson cannot, legally, make that offer anyway.

Agreed. But If they are truly interested in fostering good will, why not explore it and see if something could be worked out that is fair? Seems like a slap in the face building a mosque (and the imam's funding/intentions/loyalties are questionable) two blocks from where WTC stood.

I agree 100% about building the memorial already. It's only been almost 9 years. But why isn't it built?

I have no clue. Seems totally ridiculous to me that something wasn't built several years ago.

I haven't seen any evidence the imam's funding, loyalties or intentions are questionable. Just insinuation and speculation. If I see evidence, then it's a very different story. Although particualrly where funding is concerned, if there is evidence any laws are being broken you can be sure it won't end up being built because this guy and is partners will be up the river so fast their heads will spin. They take that stuff seriously these days, especially in NYC. Can't blame them either.

A big part of the problem with building a 9/11 memorial is the fact that nobody can agree on what to build there, and even after a design was selected many families weren't happy. I'm not sure about the financial situation, but I'm sure they can raise the cash if that's an issue. Who wouldn't donate a little something for Ground Zero?

The fact is...like I said in my previous post, nobody's on the same page here. We haven't really talked about it, not really. There's no memorial 9 years later at least in part out of "respect" for the feelings of those families who disagree. See where trying to please everybody gets you?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a conversation about Cordoba House, far from it. But I think this whole argument is about something deeper, a symptom not a cause. And nobody's touching it. Maybe if Cordoba House forces us to have that conversation...finally...then it's a good thing in the long run.

 

[AllieBaba]

the more people complain about the mosque, the more it will seem like a victory to the idiot islamics.

So...in order to be victorious people shouldn't voice opposition?

The fact of the matter is, the mosque & community center pose a huge safety risk. They are a symbol of Islamic victory over America to Muslims of the world and will attract every lunatic firebrand on the face of the earth.

The imam who is spearheading this effort refuses to name Hamas as a terror organization, blames America publicly for 9/11, and will not release who has provided Cordoba House with MILLIONS of dollars in less than a year. Two terror organizations signed off on the copywright page of his book about Dawa from the Rubble of 9/11.

And remember, dawa is a precursor to jihad.

So let's compare this fuck and this incredibly DANGEROUS plan to titty bars and drunks again. After all, they're exactly the same.

 

[Paulie]

What's particularly funny is that a six degrees of kevin bacon link between the Bin Laden family and the Mosque builders is viewed by the opposers here as enough proof of terrorist involvement, but the same kind of link between the Bin Laden family and the Bushes was just a bunch of poppycock

 

[johnrocks]

I look at it as a private property issue, they adhere to the zoning requirements and other laws that all others have to adhere to then build away.

 

[AllieBaba]

"Yeah, but porn peddlers, hookers, strippers, drunks and gamblers don't run around beheading people all day" in 3...2...1......

Not beheading, but they werent the people who flew the planes into the buildings.

This is a matter of perception. Let me say first that legally there is no real way of stopping them short of them doing something against the building code. (Building codes outweigh the first amendments, or churches could do whatever the hell they wanted.)

Islam has a long history, shared by early crudader Christianity of marking scenes of victory by building a Mosque/Church on or near the site.

The opposition would be better served by making it known that there will be a protest outside of the community center EVERY DAY the place is open. They should, in careful terms, express the reasons of thier opposition.

The motives of the community center's founder to me are coming more and more into question. if he truly is looking for discussion and reconcillation, wouldn't he be influenced by the negative repsonse he is seeing from so many people? Doesnt he realize that continuing to press for the center at that location is not serving for healing and discourse, but for more angst and argument?

Of course if his true motive is actually to mark this a victory for Islam, then is stubbornness makes sense.

I was making fun of some of the loonier troll claims out there.

And you're right, people have every right to protest. They have every right to question motive. I feel for the people who can't seem to move on, I get it. 9/11 was painful. We all lost something that day, something that we haven't ever really talked about, defined or figured out how to move forward together from. It makes honest dialogue tough. And it breeds suspicion, of "them" and of each other. If protesting helps, protest away!

What they don't have is the right to tear up the Constitution.

Which hasn't been done and won't be done if the building is prevented from going up. Nobody is saying they can't practice their religion or build mosques elsewhere. We're all subject to safety considerations as well as other considerations when it comes to building. We are NOT constitutionally guaranteed the right to build wherever and whenever we like. For the 500th time, building permits are not constitutionally guaranteed, and the right to build is not constitutionally protected. Nor does it affect the right of people to worship to deny them a building permit in this one particular place due to safety considerations.

 

[goldcatt]

Not beheading, but they werent the people who flew the planes into the buildings.

This is a matter of perception. Let me say first that legally there is no real way of stopping them short of them doing something against the building code. (Building codes outweigh the first amendments, or churches could do whatever the hell they wanted.)

Islam has a long history, shared by early crudader Christianity of marking scenes of victory by building a Mosque/Church on or near the site.

The opposition would be better served by making it known that there will be a protest outside of the community center EVERY DAY the place is open. They should, in careful terms, express the reasons of thier opposition.

The motives of the community center's founder to me are coming more and more into question. if he truly is looking for discussion and reconcillation, wouldn't he be influenced by the negative repsonse he is seeing from so many people? Doesnt he realize that continuing to press for the center at that location is not serving for healing and discourse, but for more angst and argument?

Of course if his true motive is actually to mark this a victory for Islam, then is stubbornness makes sense.

I was making fun of some of the loonier troll claims out there.

And you're right, people have every right to protest. They have every right to question motive. I feel for the people who can't seem to move on, I get it. 9/11 was painful. We all lost something that day, something that we haven't ever really talked about, defined or figured out how to move forward together from. It makes honest dialogue tough. And it breeds suspicion, of "them" and of each other. If protesting helps, protest away!

What they don't have is the right to tear up the Constitution.

Which hasn't been done and won't be done if the building is prevented from going up. Nobody is saying they can't practice their religion or build mosques elsewhere. We're all subject to safety considerations as well as other considerations when it comes to building. We are NOT constitutionally guaranteed the right to build wherever and whenever we like. For the 500th time, building permits are not constitutionally guaranteed, and the right to build is not constitutionally protected. Nor does it affect the right of people to worship to deny them a building permit in this one particular place due to safety considerations.

So what you're saying is the right of any individual or group to use their own private property in the way they see fit, conforming to all existing laws and regulations, is dependent on what religion they practice and whether the neighbors "like" it?

Constitutional protections of equal protection and freedom of religion, speech and assembly as well as 5th Amendment property considerations extend to all acts of government, Allie. Surprise! A building permit to renovate private property is a government act.

And for the 500th time (not to you specifically, but on this board) WHAT "safety considerations"? If you have evidence, put it out there so something can be done about it.

 

[martybegan]

"Yeah, but porn peddlers, hookers, strippers, drunks and gamblers don't run around beheading people all day" in 3...2...1......

Not beheading, but they werent the people who flew the planes into the buildings.

This is a matter of perception. Let me say first that legally there is no real way of stopping them short of them doing something against the building code. (Building codes outweigh the first amendments, or churches could do whatever the hell they wanted.)

Islam has a long history, shared by early crudader Christianity of marking scenes of victory by building a Mosque/Church on or near the site.

The opposition would be better served by making it known that there will be a protest outside of the community center EVERY DAY the place is open. They should, in careful terms, express the reasons of thier opposition.

The motives of the community center's founder to me are coming more and more into question. if he truly is looking for discussion and reconcillation, wouldn't he be influenced by the negative repsonse he is seeing from so many people? Doesnt he realize that continuing to press for the center at that location is not serving for healing and discourse, but for more angst and argument?

Of course if his true motive is actually to mark this a victory for Islam, then is stubbornness makes sense.

I was making fun of some of the loonier troll claims out there.

And you're right, people have every right to protest. They have every right to question motive. I feel for the people who can't seem to move on, I get it. 9/11 was painful. We all lost something that day, something that we haven't ever really talked about, defined or figured out how to move forward together from. It makes honest dialogue tough. And it breeds suspicion, of "them" and of each other. If protesting helps, protest away!

What they don't have is the right to tear up the Constitution.

Agreed, but folks have to remember that the bill of rights was soley designed to prevent the GOVERMENT from doing things, it doesnt prevent the people from doing things. For that you have to go to laws.

 

[goldcatt]

Not beheading, but they werent the people who flew the planes into the buildings.

This is a matter of perception. Let me say first that legally there is no real way of stopping them short of them doing something against the building code. (Building codes outweigh the first amendments, or churches could do whatever the hell they wanted.)

Islam has a long history, shared by early crudader Christianity of marking scenes of victory by building a Mosque/Church on or near the site.

The opposition would be better served by making it known that there will be a protest outside of the community center EVERY DAY the place is open. They should, in careful terms, express the reasons of thier opposition.

The motives of the community center's founder to me are coming more and more into question. if he truly is looking for discussion and reconcillation, wouldn't he be influenced by the negative repsonse he is seeing from so many people? Doesnt he realize that continuing to press for the center at that location is not serving for healing and discourse, but for more angst and argument?

Of course if his true motive is actually to mark this a victory for Islam, then is stubbornness makes sense.

I was making fun of some of the loonier troll claims out there.

And you're right, people have every right to protest. They have every right to question motive. I feel for the people who can't seem to move on, I get it. 9/11 was painful. We all lost something that day, something that we haven't ever really talked about, defined or figured out how to move forward together from. It makes honest dialogue tough. And it breeds suspicion, of "them" and of each other. If protesting helps, protest away!

What they don't have is the right to tear up the Constitution.

Agreed, but folks have to remember that the bill of rights was soley designed to prevent the GOVERMENT from doing things, it doesnt prevent the people from doing things. For that you have to go to laws.

In bold - agree 100%.

Which begs the question, are American Muslims then not to be considered part of the People?

If you want me to get on my soapbox about that last part I will....but be prepared for a novel.

 

[HUGGY]

the more people complain about the mosque, the more it will seem like a victory to the idiot islamics.

So how much of the Constitution should we ignor or trample so we ensure a handful of "idiot Islamics" don't have a sense of victory concerning this one event?

Personally I'm tired of being supposed to react to them. I am far more concerned that Ossama is still not captured "dead or alive".