Russia would have lost WW2 if they traded allies with Germany

[harmonica]

LOL, and yet about 80% of Nazis killed were killed by Soviets..

And yet far more Soviet died than Nazis, 100 to 1. The Soviets couldn't even survive after the war without western aid.

The Soviets were the first to capture Berlin the Nazi German capital...

I think you clearly need to re-read history...

Yes, because Eisenhower stopped at his original position he chose before we invaded Europe, and of course the Soviets had to rely on the West to even be in the war at all, dummy. They wouldn't have gotten past their positions at the end of the invasion without western aid, period. they had nothing to fight with, and all the babbling about their 'industrial capacity' is a lot of rubbish propaganda, we now know for certain. They couldn't even produce their own aviation fuel.

Haha, Soviets had more tanks, and aircraft than Nazis, with, or without Western aid.

I think the only one spreading rubbish propaganda is yourself.

For those in the Peanut Gallery who need a clue about this, there are lists of what the Soviets had left after the Germans had reached Moscow and Stalingrad. Anybody claiming the Soviets had all kinds of stuff of their own to resist with is clearly crazy. they couldn't launch a real offensive until the following summer, and after massive numbers of tanks, ammo, food, etc arrived. The Kursk breakout would have been a pipe dream. The only thing the Russian exceled in was mine fields, many miles deep, the only thing that stopped the German advances.

Kursk was a victory for the Germans???!!!!??? really

 

[harmonica]

The Nazi’s came really close to winning. If not for Dunkirk, as well as 4 U.S. aircraft carriers performing exercises away from Pearl Harbor, Nazism and it’s Asian equivalent would have won. That’s why the rise of Nazism today should worry everybody.

you have proved yourself ignorant of WW2
stop now before you lose anymore
for one--what 4 carriers are you talking about??

 

[harmonica]

The Nazi’s came really close to winning. If not for Dunkirk, as well as 4 U.S. aircraft carriers performing exercises away from Pearl Harbor, Nazism and it’s Asian equivalent would have won. That’s why the rise of Nazism today should worry everybody.

you are another one who changes critical elements
IF seems to be a popular word on this thread
ok--let's change some other elements---
there's a HUGE storm over Pearl Dec 7--Japanese attack fails
hitler has a heart attack 1941--he dies
a Japanese carrier collides with an escort on the way to PH
a US sub sights the Kido Butai before making it to PH

 

[harmonica]

Germany back stabbed Russia
Japan back stabbed America
Russia and America are not giving up

 

[harmonica]

The Nazi’s came really close to winning. If not for Dunkirk, as well as 4 U.S. aircraft carriers performing exercises away from Pearl Harbor, Nazism and it’s Asian equivalent would have won. That’s why the rise of Nazism today should worry everybody.

the US alone warmaking potential was more than double Germany, Japan, and Italy put together!
Country % of Total Warmaking Potential
United States 41.7%
Germany 14.4%
USSR 14.0%
UK 10.2%
France 4.2%
Japan 3.5%
Italy 2.5%
Seven Powers (total) (90.5%)
Grim Economic Realities

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Russians, by Stalingrad, were capable of fighting the Germans to a stand still and pushing them back.

The development and deployment of an atomic weapon would have been the only way the Germans could have won the war.

I don't the literature you are studying, but the top grade TO&E histories from the UK and USA war college studies do not agree with yours.

 

[harmonica]

If Russia was allied with Italy and Japan, they would have lost to the US, England, Germany, and France. The allies would have taken Italy out of the war in six months, ganged up on Russia with a massive Operation Barbarossa reinforced with millions of US, French, and British soldiers joining the Wehrmacht, who would now have a much, much, much better supply system to go along with the millions of reinforcements. The US would keep Japan busy while they finished off Russia and smash them after Russia was finished.

Russia's performance in WW2 is nowhere near as impressive as it is made out to be. They had way too much trouble with a country a fraction of their size who had declared war on the entire planet.

Russia was too big
the Western Front was tiny compared to the Eastern Front
Russia losing: not for certain

 

[Picaro]

And yet far more Soviet died than Nazis, 100 to 1. The Soviets couldn't even survive after the war without western aid.

The Soviets were the first to capture Berlin the Nazi German capital...

I think you clearly need to re-read history...

Yes, because Eisenhower stopped at his original position he chose before we invaded Europe, and of course the Soviets had to rely on the West to even be in the war at all, dummy. They wouldn't have gotten past their positions at the end of the invasion without western aid, period. they had nothing to fight with, and all the babbling about their 'industrial capacity' is a lot of rubbish propaganda, we now know for certain. They couldn't even produce their own aviation fuel.

Haha, Soviets had more tanks, and aircraft than Nazis, with, or without Western aid.

I think the only one spreading rubbish propaganda is yourself.

For those in the Peanut Gallery who need a clue about this, there are lists of what the Soviets had left after the Germans had reached Moscow and Stalingrad. Anybody claiming the Soviets had all kinds of stuff of their own to resist with is clearly crazy. they couldn't launch a real offensive until the following summer, and after massive numbers of tanks, ammo, food, etc arrived. The Kursk breakout would have been a pipe dream. The only thing the Russian exceled in was mine fields, many miles deep, the only thing that stopped the German advances.

Kursk was a victory for the Germans???!!!!??? really

How do you get that from what I said?

 

[Litwin]

If Russia was allied with Italy and Japan, they would have lost to the US, England, Germany, and France. The allies would have taken Italy out of the war in six months, ganged up on Russia with a massive Operation Barbarossa reinforced with millions of US, French, and British soldiers joining the Wehrmacht, who would now have a much, much, much better supply system to go along with the millions of reinforcements. The US would keep Japan busy while they finished off Russia and smash them after Russia was finished.

Russia's performance in WW2 is nowhere near as impressive as it is made out to be. They had way too much trouble with a country a fraction of their size who had declared war on the entire planet.

CCCP ´d have 0 chance ..you are 100% right . CCCP always has been a paper tiger

 

[Litwin]

If Russia was allied with Italy and Japan, they would have lost to the US, England, Germany, and France. The allies would have taken Italy out of the war in six months, ganged up on Russia with a massive Operation Barbarossa reinforced with millions of US, French, and British soldiers joining the Wehrmacht, who would now have a much, much, much better supply system to go along with the millions of reinforcements. The US would keep Japan busy while they finished off Russia and smash them after Russia was finished.

Russia's performance in WW2 is nowhere near as impressive as it is made out to be. They had way too much trouble with a country a fraction of their size who had declared war on the entire planet.

Russia was too big
the Western Front was tiny compared to the Eastern Front
Russia losing: not for certain

in 1941, 90% Soviets hated koba dzhugashvili , once Moscow´d be liberated from commies , ussr´d collapse in the same day

"The Lokot Autonomy (Russian: ...) was a semi-autonomous region in Nazi German-occupied Central Russia led by Bronislav Kaminski's administration from July 1942 to August 1943. The name is derived from the region's administrative center, the urban-type settlement of Lokot in Oryol Oblast (now located in Bryansk Oblast). The "Autonomy" covered the area of eight raions (the present-day Brasovsky, Dmitriyevsky, Dmitrovsky, Komarichsky, Navlinsky, Sevsky, Suzemsky and Zheleznogorsky districts) now divided between Bryansk, Oryol and Kursk Oblasts.[2] The autonomy was to serve as a test case for a Russian collaborationist government under the SS in Reichskommissariat Moskowien.[3]"
In October 1941, the Nazi German military advance into Soviet Union from Operation Barbarossa reached the Lokot area near the city of Bryansk, and it was captured by the Germans on October 6, 1941.[4] In November 1941 Bronislav Kaminski (an engineer at a local distillery) and Konstantin Voskoboinik (a local technical school teacher) were approached the German military administration with proposals to assist them in establishing a civil administration and local police. Voskoboinik was designated by Germans as starosta of the "Lokot volost". Kaminski became Voskoboinik's deputy. Other deputies appointed were Stepan Mosin and Roman Ivanin (the head of the local militia), both former prisoners.[5]

Initially the militia headed by Voskoboinik numbered no more than 200 men. It assisted Germans in policing the area, and committed numerous atrocities against the civilian population loyal to the Soviet authorities or Soviet partisans, Soviet prisoners-of war (POWs), Jews and ordinary civilians.[6][7] By January 1942 the militia's personnel was increased to 400-500.

During a partisan attack headed by Alexander Saburov on January 8, 1942, Voskoboinik was mortally wounded. After his death Kaminski took over the command and further expanded the militia.[1][7]

In cooperation with German forces the militia commenced anti-partisan operations, and by spring of 1942 the militia had 1,400 armed personnel. The number of Soviet partisans in this area was estimated at 20,000 men – they controlled almost the entire rear of the Army Group Center's area of operations.[8]

In March 1942 Kaminski's representative to the German Second Panzer Army in Oryol gave assurances that Kaminski's unit was "ready to actively fight the guerrillas" and to carry on a propaganda campaign against "Jewish Bolshevism" and Soviet partisans. Soon thereafter the commander of 2nd Army Generaloberst Rudolf Schmidt appointed Kaminski as the mayor of the Army Rear Area 532 centered in the township of Lokot. On 19 July 1942, after the Commander of Army Group Centre, Field Marshal Günther von Kluge gave an official approval, the Lokot administration received some degree of autonomy and nominal self-rule under the supervision of major von Veltheim and colonel Rübsam. Kaminsky was appointed the oberburgomeister of the Autonomous Administration of Lokot (comprising eight raions) and the brigadier of the local militia.

From June 1942, Kaminski's militia took part in the major anti-partisan action, code-named Operation Vogelsang, as a part of Generalleutnant Werner Freiherr von und zu Gilsa's kampfgruppe (taskforce) Gilsa II.

Germans did not interfere in the affairs of the Lokot Autonomy as long as their transports were kept safe and the republic delivered the required food quotas to the Wehrmacht. Collective farms were abolished, and a large degree of free enterprise was permitted. Kaminski established the Autonomy's own court, jails and newspapers. Kaminski's speeches published in the newspapers of the region emphasised that the aims of Nazi Germany and Russia "are the same".

The schools (closed after the German invasion) were reopened, and a radio station along with theater groups were established in Lokot, Dmitrovsk and Sevsk [9] Newspapers published in the Lokot Autonomy were typical of all newspapers published on Nazi-occupied Russian territories, featuring articles exposing "Jewish Bolshevism" crimes along with Nazi propaganda which included the usual heavy dose of anti-Semitism. The Jewish population in the Autonomy was annihilated without German assistance: 223 Jews were shot in the township of Suzemka, and 39 at Navlya.[10]

In October 1942 Kaminski renamed Lokot township as the town of Voskoboinik. Streets in other townships of the Autonomy were also renamed.

In the autumn of 1942 Kaminski ordered the compulsory draft into militia of all able-bodied men. Its units were reinforced with the "volunteers" drafted from Soviet POWs at the nearest Nazi concentration camps. Kaminski ordered the gathering of Soviet tanks and armored cars abandoned in 1941 due the lack of fuel or minor mechanical failures – by November 1942 his unit has in possession at least two BT-7 tanks and one 76 mm artillery system. Due the lack of uniforms and boots (some units were barefoot) the Germans provided Kaminski's brigade with used uniforms: these were sufficient for only four battalions.

By late 1942, the militia of the Lokot Autonomy had expanded to the size of a 14-battalion brigade with close to 8,000 men under arms called the Russian National Liberation Army (RONA). From November 19, 1942 to December 1942, Lokot was inspected by the order of the Alfred Rosenberg.

In January 1943, the brigade numbered 9828 people; the armored unit of brigade has one heavy KV-II, two medium T-34, three BT-7 and two BT-5 light tanks, and three armored cars (BA-10, 2 BA-20).

In the spring of 1943 the brigade's structure was reorganized – there were five regiments created with three battalions in each, anti-aircraft battalion (three AAA guns and four heavy machine guns), armored unit. A separate "guard" battalion was created; brigade strength was estimated to be 12,000 men in total.
Lokot Autonomy - Wikipedia

 

[Litwin]

Can you imagine had Third Army reconstituted the 70 German divisions in Europe, getting their factories up to full functioning, denied the USSR Air Force fuel?

I doubt a combined Europe could have stopped the U.S. in a war; the Soveits certainly couldn't stop anybody, well, maybe Monte Carlo or Kuwait.

LOL, and yet about 80% of Nazis killed were killed by Soviets..

And yet far more Soviet died than Nazis, 100 to 1. The Soviets couldn't even survive after the war without western aid.

+1
Soviet famine of 1946–47 - Wikipedia
Soviet famine of 1946–47 - Wikipedia
Jump to In Russia - In the summer of 1946 there was a famine in the provinces of Rostov, Voronezh, Orel, Kursk and Tambov which was made worse by a ...
‎In Moldova · ‎In Ukraine

 

[whitehall]

Russia and Germany were allies until the German maniac decided to invade Russia. Russia became a player in the post war world because of FDR's incompetence. Churchill saw it coming and called it the "Iron Curtain " while imbecile FDR was calling Stalin "Uncle Joe".

 

[Picaro]

Russia and Germany were allies until the German maniac decided to invade Russia. Russia became a player in the post war world because of FDR's incompetence. Churchill saw it coming and called it the "Iron Curtain " while imbecile FDR was calling Stalin "Uncle Joe".

Why FDR didn't grow himself a little Lenin beard and adopt a Russian name we'll never know eh? lol

 

[Picaro]

Re the T-34's origin discussions earlier:



American inventor and manufacturer J.Walter Christie introduced sloped armor in his M1928 design. The U.S. Army had other plans for tanks in mind, so Christie went to foreign markets, Poland, Britain, and the USSR, who bought two of them, without turrets, as 'farm tractors'. The Russians also bought Vickers tanks, and the British turned Christie's designs into what became the Cruiser Mk III. Christie's sophisticated suspension systems, also important for cross-country ops, were incorporated, variable or coil spring suspension. The Russians combined these designs into first the A-20 and then the A-32 and finally the T-34.



At the end of 1942, the Russians sent a model to the U.S. Army Proving Ground at the end of 1942, sent a report back, but it wasn't until the middle of 1944 that many of the new recommendations were incorporated into the manufacturing, long after Stalingrad and Kursk were over. They only played a role in the pursuit, and were not good in the cities by the time Germany was actually invaded.



The also would have been useless without the use of American trucks, the Studebakers; the Russians produced their own models, but the Russian built only slightly over half of their own.. The Russian commanders on the front insisted on having the American made ones for their supply lines, not the Russian built ones, and used them exclusively to carry guns and ammo for front line divisions. The T-34 would have been useless without dependable trucks in their supply train. The claims that Lend-Lease didn't keep the Soviets from collapse is just silly; they would never have survived without it, nor would they have ever been able to go on the offensive in 1943 without it, and they certainly would never reached into Germany by the time the western offensives reached to within 100 miles of Berlin.



More on the mine field belts that decided the battle of Kursk; there were 2,400 anti-tank mines and 2,700 anti-personnel mines per mile, and the belts were 16 to 25 miles deep, and were stretched across the entire Kursk salient. This brought the blitzkreig armor tactics to a halt.



A new book out, Engineers of Victory by Paul Kennedy, is well worth a read; it concentrates on the mid-level war, the operational levels, where the war was won.

 

[Litwin]

Russia and Germany were allies until the German maniac decided to invade Russia. Russia became a player in the post war world because of FDR's incompetence. Churchill saw it coming and called it the "Iron Curtain " while imbecile FDR was calling Stalin "Uncle Joe".

why you think FDR and koba were that cose ? was it cos USA badly needed British empire to be dead ?