Ron Santo elected to HOF

[Article 15]

A guy who played during Santo's era and I think is more deserving of HOF is Joe Torre. Joe played catcher and third base and won an MVP in an absolutely monster year. Joe finished his career at just under .300 and was a dominant player

Torre also had a nice career for himself.

But I'd put Torre in the "not dominant enough for long enough" category as well.

 

[Bfgrn]

At the end of the day, Ron Santo just didn't it good enough for long enough to get in. They should have just kept him out.

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

 

[TruthSeeker56]

Ron Santo elected to Hall of Fame by Veterans Committee

Good player but not Hall of Fame material

Never won an MVP or lead the league in any category
And we know he never led his team to a championship
His lifetime stats are not that great

342 HR 1331 RBI .277 BA. 2254 hits in 15 years

Ron Santo was a great baseball player. I was around when he played, and he was the catalyst for the Cubs teams he played on.

Santo's stats compare very favorably to Ernie Banks and Billy Williams. It's just too bad that Santo's election to the hall came after he died. A real tragedy.

Ron Santo: 15 Seasons, 2243 Games, .277 BA, 342 HR, 2254 Hits, 1331 RBIs

Ernie Banks: 19 Seasons, 2528 Games, .274 BA, 512 HR, 2583 Hits, 1236 RBIs

Billy Williams: 18 Seasons, 2488 Games, .290 BA, 426 HR, 2711 Hits, 1475 RBIs

 

[deaddogseye]

A guy who played during Santo's era and I think is more deserving of HOF is Joe Torre. Joe played catcher and third base and won an MVP in an absolutely monster year. Joe finished his career at just under .300 and was a dominant player

I agree and have argued this for soem time.

Even though i earleir posted against the abuses that result from these vet and old timers committees i could se an argument for them as applied to torre. he wasnt deemed worthy when his time came up in the normal process -- BUT he has had great sucess as a manager that wasnt considered then so that might be a case for one of these committees -- a marginal guy who later made a great contribution that tips the scales. But other than something like that -- im still againt these committees and id rather see them abolished than exist for a guy like torree -- they do far more harm than good.

 

[Article 15]

At the end of the day, Ron Santo just didn't it good enough for long enough to get in. They should have just kept him out.

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

All noted, and it's unfortunate for Ron that that was the case. However, I'm not going to start pushing for pretty good pitchers from the steroid era to get inducted either just because of the circumstances surrounding the game at the time.

 

[rightwinger]

At the end of the day, Ron Santo just didn't it good enough for long enough to get in. They should have just kept him out.

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

I'm not buying that. There were some great hitters that came out of that "deadball era". Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson,Clemente, Stargell,Yaz, McCovey, Banks, Brock, Killebrew, Carew...

They managed to put up legitimate HOF stats that did not need to be massaged

 

[Bfgrn]

At the end of the day, Ron Santo just didn't it good enough for long enough to get in. They should have just kept him out.

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

All noted, and it's unfortunate for Ron that that was the case. However, I'm not going to start pushing for pretty good pitchers from the steroid era to get inducted either just because of the circumstances surrounding the game at the time.

Considering the large strike zone during his era, Ron's high on base percentage and walks tells me he was disciplined at the plate and a team player. Santo's stats have been elevated when put through the unemotional shredder (sabermetrics), not diminished. I also believe his total baseball life should be considered, just like Torre's. I also believe Gil Hodges, Minnie Minoso and Jim Kaat should be in the HOF.


Coming up at age 20 in 1960, Santo established himself in a few years as a hitter with good power, a high average, lots of walks, and a slick glove. Although his numbers may not look as impressive at first glance as those of current players, it must be remembered that the 1960s and early 1970s were a second dead ball era when on-base percentages and slugging averages were lower than those of today. His lifetime .362 on-base percentage and .464 slugging average were excellent for those days, as his 125 OPS+ attests. On May 28 and May 29, 1966, Santo hit extra-inning, game-ending, game-winning home runs for Chicago; no National Leaguer would perform that feat for 45 years, when Albert Pujols did so.

Santo hit over 20 home runs eleven times, and his career home run total (342) is one of the highest among players who were primarily third basemen. He was a nine-time All-Star, and a five-time Gold Glove winner. He finished in the top five in the MVP voting twice, led the league in walks four times, led the league in on-base percentage twice, and was in the top ten in slugging five times. He homered 42 times in his career off Hall of Fame pitchers.

Ron Santo - BR Bullpen

 

[Article 15]

All noted, and it's unfortunate for Ron that that was the case. However, I'm not going to start pushing for pretty good pitchers from the steroid era to get inducted either just because of the circumstances surrounding the game at the time.

Considering the large strike zone during his era, Ron's high on base percentage and walks tells me he was disciplined at the plate and a team player. Santo's stats have been elevated when put through the unemotional shredder (sabermetrics), not diminished. I also believe his total baseball life should be considered, just like Torre's. I also believe Gil Hodges, Minnie Minoso and Jim Kaat should be in the HOF.

And I gave Santo his props for his OBP. I think we all know Joe Torre will be in the Hall.

Taking a player's entire baseball life into consideration is what the veteran's committee is for, in my eyes. Allow me to backpedal away from my "never should have gotten in statement" as I feel I have strayed from my original point which was:

I agree with the OP that Santo isn't a HOFer. While Santo was a nice player he wasn't dominant enough by any stretch nor did he make any major milestone to warrant a conventional induction.

But it's a veteran's committee induction so whatev.

 

[Bfgrn]

At the end of the day, Ron Santo just didn't it good enough for long enough to get in. They should have just kept him out.

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

I'm not buying that. There were some great hitters that came out of that "deadball era". Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson,Clemente, Stargell,Yaz, McCovey, Banks, Brock, Killebrew, Carew...

They managed to put up legitimate HOF stats that did not need to be massaged

Baseball is a 5 tool sport. Santo was much more of a 5 tool player than many HOFers. I absolutely love Harmon Killebrew, but he was a below average fielder.

Let's look at the all-encompassing metric WAR. Where does Santo rank amongst all players in WAR? The answer is 105th. To put that into perspective, that's better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

That in itself is impressive. But where does Santo rank amongst 3rd basemen? Using 800 games played at 3b as a barometer (that's only 5 full seasons), Santo ranks 6th among 3rd basemen. All are currently in the HOF....so how is it that there are eleven 3rd basemen in the Hall of Fame and Santo isn't one of them? This is even a bigger oversight when you consider that this position is under-represented in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Article 15]

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

I'm not buying that. There were some great hitters that came out of that "deadball era". Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson,Clemente, Stargell,Yaz, McCovey, Banks, Brock, Killebrew, Carew...

They managed to put up legitimate HOF stats that did not need to be massaged

Baseball is a 5 tool sport. Santo was much more of a 5 tool player than many HOFers. I absolutely love Harmon Killebrew, but he was a below average fielder.

Let's look at the all-encompassing metric WAR. Where does Santo rank amongst all players in WAR? The answer is 105th. To put that into perspective, that's better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

That in itself is impressive. But where does Santo rank amongst 3rd basemen? Using 800 games played at 3b as a barometer (that's only 5 full seasons), Santo ranks 6th among 3rd basemen. All are currently in the HOF....so how is it that there are eleven 3rd basemen in the Hall of Fame and Santo isn't one of them? This is even a bigger oversight when you consider that this position is under-represented in the Hall of Fame.

McCovey, Killebrew, Banks ... all in the 500 HR club and all won MVPs

Stargell and Dawson 400 HR club and MVPs

Ozzie Smith ... arguable the greatest defensive SS of all tim

Roberto Alomar ... one of the ultimate 5 tool players in baseball history.

Winfield ... 400 HR and 3000 hits



Santo was not a 5 tool player. The man could not run.

Santo never finished higher than 4th in the MVP voting.

And I hate to keep bringing it up but he doesn't have a single sexy lifetime stat milestone.

 

[Bfgrn]

I'm not buying that. There were some great hitters that came out of that "deadball era". Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson,Clemente, Stargell,Yaz, McCovey, Banks, Brock, Killebrew, Carew...

They managed to put up legitimate HOF stats that did not need to be massaged

Baseball is a 5 tool sport. Santo was much more of a 5 tool player than many HOFers. I absolutely love Harmon Killebrew, but he was a below average fielder.

Let's look at the all-encompassing metric WAR. Where does Santo rank amongst all players in WAR? The answer is 105th. To put that into perspective, that's better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

That in itself is impressive. But where does Santo rank amongst 3rd basemen? Using 800 games played at 3b as a barometer (that's only 5 full seasons), Santo ranks 6th among 3rd basemen. All are currently in the HOF....so how is it that there are eleven 3rd basemen in the Hall of Fame and Santo isn't one of them? This is even a bigger oversight when you consider that this position is under-represented in the Hall of Fame.

McCovey, Killebrew, Banks ... all in the 500 HR club and all won MVPs

Stargell and Dawson 400 HR club and MVPs

Ozzie Smith ... arguable the greatest defensive SS of all tim

Roberto Alomar ... one of the ultimate 5 tool players in baseball history.

Winfield ... 400 HR and 3000 hits



Santo was not a 5 tool player. The man could not run.

Santo never finished higher than 4th in the MVP voting.

And I hate to keep bringing it up but he doesn't have a single sexy lifetime stat milestone.

YET, Santo's WAR is better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

 

[Article 15]

Baseball is a 5 tool sport. Santo was much more of a 5 tool player than many HOFers. I absolutely love Harmon Killebrew, but he was a below average fielder.

Let's look at the all-encompassing metric WAR. Where does Santo rank amongst all players in WAR? The answer is 105th. To put that into perspective, that's better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

That in itself is impressive. But where does Santo rank amongst 3rd basemen? Using 800 games played at 3b as a barometer (that's only 5 full seasons), Santo ranks 6th among 3rd basemen. All are currently in the HOF....so how is it that there are eleven 3rd basemen in the Hall of Fame and Santo isn't one of them? This is even a bigger oversight when you consider that this position is under-represented in the Hall of Fame.

McCovey, Killebrew, Banks ... all in the 500 HR club and all won MVPs

Stargell and Dawson 400 HR club and MVPs

Ozzie Smith ... arguable the greatest defensive SS of all tim

Roberto Alomar ... one of the ultimate 5 tool players in baseball history.

Winfield ... 400 HR and 3000 hits



Santo was not a 5 tool player. The man could not run.

Santo never finished higher than 4th in the MVP voting.

And I hate to keep bringing it up but he doesn't have a single sexy lifetime stat milestone.

YET, Santo's WAR is better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

Yeah, I know....my post was a rebuttal to that very point, and the reason why those players were voted in and Santo was a veteran's committee selection.

 

[rightwinger]

Yes he was good enough. Ron ranks as the 6th best 3rd baseman in history. There are 11 in the HOF. Do the math.

Ron played in the second deadball era, when batting averages were unusually low in major league baseball. The time period 1963-76.

It was an era of the high mound, large strike zone and a group of the best pitchers in baseball history. Santo had to face Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, while a new generation was emerging Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan.

If we can tolerate OJ Simpson being in the football HOF, we can celebrate Ron's induction into baseball's.

I'm not buying that. There were some great hitters that came out of that "deadball era". Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson,Clemente, Stargell,Yaz, McCovey, Banks, Brock, Killebrew, Carew...

They managed to put up legitimate HOF stats that did not need to be massaged

Baseball is a 5 tool sport. Santo was much more of a 5 tool player than many HOFers. I absolutely love Harmon Killebrew, but he was a below average fielder.

Let's look at the all-encompassing metric WAR. Where does Santo rank amongst all players in WAR? The answer is 105th. To put that into perspective, that's better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

That in itself is impressive. But where does Santo rank amongst 3rd basemen? Using 800 games played at 3b as a barometer (that's only 5 full seasons), Santo ranks 6th among 3rd basemen. All are currently in the HOF....so how is it that there are eleven 3rd basemen in the Hall of Fame and Santo isn't one of them? This is even a bigger oversight when you consider that this position is under-represented in the Hall of Fame.

First off. I'm not cutting Santo slack because of the era he played in. Prior to 1960 there were four players with over 500 HRs (Ruth, Foxx, Williams and Ott) by the end of the 70s there were twelve. It was far from a deadball era

WAR is a sexy statistic with baseball geeks these days. But it still has it's problems and Santo benefits. Wins against Replacement compares you to other players of your era at your position. As was previously posted, there were not a lot of great third basemen from 1960-1975. You have Brooks Robinson and then a huge drop off. Santo looks good because there is not much competition.

I don't buy that he belongs because he was good for a third baseman. Third base is not an extreme skill position like Shortstop, Catcher or Pitcher where I would cut you some slack for not having great offensive statistics

Santo did not have great career numbers and never had a dominating season and never won anything. Very Good player.....but below the line

For comparison, I look at Billy Williams as another very good player.....but just above the line

 

[Bfgrn]

I'm not buying that. There were some great hitters that came out of that "deadball era". Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson,Clemente, Stargell,Yaz, McCovey, Banks, Brock, Killebrew, Carew...

They managed to put up legitimate HOF stats that did not need to be massaged

Baseball is a 5 tool sport. Santo was much more of a 5 tool player than many HOFers. I absolutely love Harmon Killebrew, but he was a below average fielder.

Let's look at the all-encompassing metric WAR. Where does Santo rank amongst all players in WAR? The answer is 105th. To put that into perspective, that's better than Hall of Famers Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Roberto Alomar, Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield and Willie Stargell -- to name just a few. It's also higher than Hall of Fame teammate Ernie Banks and more recent Cub legends Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson.

That in itself is impressive. But where does Santo rank amongst 3rd basemen? Using 800 games played at 3b as a barometer (that's only 5 full seasons), Santo ranks 6th among 3rd basemen. All are currently in the HOF....so how is it that there are eleven 3rd basemen in the Hall of Fame and Santo isn't one of them? This is even a bigger oversight when you consider that this position is under-represented in the Hall of Fame.

First off. I'm not cutting Santo slack because of the era he played in. Prior to 1960 there were four players with over 500 HRs (Ruth, Foxx, Williams and Ott) by the end of the 70s there were twelve. It was far from a deadball era

WAR is a sexy statistic with baseball geeks these days. But it still has it's problems and Santo benefits. Wins against Replacement compares you to other players of your era at your position. As was previously posted, there were not a lot of great third basemen from 1960-1975. You have Brooks Robinson and then a huge drop off. Santo looks good because there is not much competition.

I don't buy that he belongs because he was good for a third baseman. Third base is not an extreme skill position like Shortstop, Catcher or Pitcher where I would cut you some slack for not having great offensive statistics

Santo did not have great career numbers and never had a dominating season and never won anything. Very Good player.....but below the line

For comparison, I look at Billy Williams as another very good player.....but just above the line

I can see both sides. But I am more liberal in my views. Ron Santo may not be a slam dunk, but he was better in many areas of the game than HOFer's like Killebrew.

Ronnie is in. He will forever be one of the boys of summer, and I respect the men who voted him in. Most of them played the game. Writers often have an agenda.

The 16-member Golden Era Committee was comprised of Hall of Fame members Hank Aaron, Pat Gillick, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson and Billy Williams; major league executives Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals), Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks), Gene Michael (Yankees) and Al Rosen (retired); and veteran media members Dick Kaegel, Jack O'Connell and Dave Van Dyck. Hall of Fame Chairman of the Board Jane Forbes Clark served as the non-voting chairman of the Golden Era Committee.

So let's celebrate Ronnie's induction, and shed a tear that this tremendous human being and courageous role model won't be in Otsego County, New York July 22, 2012.