Right wing healthcare plan

[DiamondDave]

I wonder if Dave is for the living wage? Because many people don't make enough money to pay for health care.

I am all for you making the wage that you live on and living with the results of your choices, abilities, experience, etc

Remember... as I have said MANY times... minimum wage was NEVER intended to be for adults or family supporters... any halfway decent adult can ensure, even working at Mickey D's, that they advance in skill, ability, etc enough to actually obtain RAISES to earn above the minimum... I have no pity for those who 'say' they can't get anything more than a minimum wage job.... for it is simply a result of THEIR choices...

You can't afford healthcare working the job you have?? Work a second... Work a third.... buckle down and prove yourself and train yourself to be more in demand to earn more... but that is up to YOU.. just as your personal care is your personal responsibility

 

[Diuretic]

They are fucking entitled to nothing... they have the fucking opportunity of the same fucking health care the minute they pay for that fucking health care with their own fucking earnings

I fucking disagree

What makes you entitled to the fruits of someone else's labor in a free society?? Why do you or someone else get something for no contribution???

What next?? You get milk for free while someone making 50K pays $3 for a gallon while someone making $1MIL pays $50?....

Equality and freedom come with positives AND negatives... you don't just get benefit without risk of detriment.. the right to succeed goes hand in hand with the right to fail...

Charity... all for the voluntary giving to help someone down on their luck or in a hard space in life... but in no way is it OWED... and in no way is anyone entitled to something just because they fucking exist

Some things in society should be treated as commodities to be bought and sold. Cars for example. It's just that in my opinion health care shouldn't be treated as a commodity, but as a basic human right.

 

[DiamondDave]

I fucking disagree

What makes you entitled to the fruits of someone else's labor in a free society?? Why do you or someone else get something for no contribution???

What next?? You get milk for free while someone making 50K pays $3 for a gallon while someone making $1MIL pays $50?....

Equality and freedom come with positives AND negatives... you don't just get benefit without risk of detriment.. the right to succeed goes hand in hand with the right to fail...

Charity... all for the voluntary giving to help someone down on their luck or in a hard space in life... but in no way is it OWED... and in no way is anyone entitled to something just because they fucking exist

Some things in society should be treated as commodities to be bought and sold. Cars for example. It's just that in my opinion health care shouldn't be treated as a commodity, but as a basic human right.

So then is food, housing, water, etc basic human RIGHTS?? Do you get them for free as well?? Do they get put in a common pool where some people pay and other people do not?

No... your PERSONAL upkeep and PERSONAL well being are your PERSONAL responsibility....

Do I give to charities like St. Judes, because of my willingness and personal calling to do so, so that kids who need advanced care can get it irregardless of income?? Hell YES.... but that is my choice of what to do with my personal income

 

[del]

Care4all, Dave is living in a state with the best education, the best hospitals, the best roads and libraries and public services one can imagine. We tax everything. But I wouldn't live anywhere else. It's expensive to live here.

I like Virginia next best, but they tax even more and the farther down in Virginia you get the wackier the people get........I mean provincial......er yeah....something like that.

maryland isn't even in the top 10 for public education in any list i could find.
it's got one world class hospital.
i'm sure that they do a first class job paving roads, though.

glad you like it.

 

[midcan5]

Another day, another bunch of right wing nonsense about healthcare - does anything ever change? America for the wingnuts has become a nation of no can do. We can bomb sovereign nations spending billions, but we cannot do good things for ourselves. Somewhere Americans lost their heart, their soul, and their compassion. Anyone know where to find it?

TheDay.com - Insurers Already Rationing Health Care

Truth-telling and Responsibility in Health Care - Jim Wallis - God’s Politics Blog


"Obviously, people with low or even moderate incomes could not afford such savings rates, and even diligent savings from their low wages would not be enough to pay for either retirement or healthcare." William Greider

 

[Diuretic]

What makes you entitled to the fruits of someone else's labor in a free society?? Why do you or someone else get something for no contribution???

What next?? You get milk for free while someone making 50K pays $3 for a gallon while someone making $1MIL pays $50?....

Equality and freedom come with positives AND negatives... you don't just get benefit without risk of detriment.. the right to succeed goes hand in hand with the right to fail...

Charity... all for the voluntary giving to help someone down on their luck or in a hard space in life... but in no way is it OWED... and in no way is anyone entitled to something just because they fucking exist

Some things in society should be treated as commodities to be bought and sold. Cars for example. It's just that in my opinion health care shouldn't be treated as a commodity, but as a basic human right.

So then is food, housing, water, etc basic human RIGHTS?? Do you get them for free as well?? Do they get put in a common pool where some people pay and other people do not?

No... your PERSONAL upkeep and PERSONAL well being are your PERSONAL responsibility....

Do I give to charities like St. Judes, because of my willingness and personal calling to do so, so that kids who need advanced care can get it irregardless of income?? Hell YES.... but that is my choice of what to do with my personal income

Food, shelter, water are basic human needs. Should they be denied to people who can't pay for them? I'd say no. Having said that then the next issue is how will they be provided to those who can't pay for them. That's a policy issue.

Health care and medical treatment aren't basic human needs. Without food, water or shelter, survival is perilous, but a lack of health care or medical treatment (one being a subset of the other) doesn't immediately threaten our survival. In the longer term it does because we will get sick and when we get sick we need medical treatment.

No doubt in some societies health care and medical treatment isn't considered a basic human right.

I'm stating that it should be seen as a basic human right and its administration should follow from that, in other words the public policy provisions should be built on the acknowledgement of it being a basic human right.

 

[DiamondDave]

Another day, another bunch of right wing nonsense about healthcare - does anything ever change? America for the wingnuts has become a nation of no can do. We can bomb sovereign nations spending billions, but we cannot do good things for ourselves. Somewhere Americans lost their heart, their soul, and their compassion. Anyone know where to find it?

TheDay.com - Insurers Already Rationing Health Care

Truth-telling and Responsibility in Health Care - Jim Wallis - God’s Politics Blog


"Obviously, people with low or even moderate incomes could not afford such savings rates, and even diligent savings from their low wages would not be enough to pay for either retirement or healthcare." William Greider

Another excuse for midcan to link left wing sites

The federal govt is charged with nation defense.... the federal government is not charged with taking over your personal responsibilities... but nice try

 

[DiamondDave]

Some things in society should be treated as commodities to be bought and sold. Cars for example. It's just that in my opinion health care shouldn't be treated as a commodity, but as a basic human right.

So then is food, housing, water, etc basic human RIGHTS?? Do you get them for free as well?? Do they get put in a common pool where some people pay and other people do not?

No... your PERSONAL upkeep and PERSONAL well being are your PERSONAL responsibility....

Do I give to charities like St. Judes, because of my willingness and personal calling to do so, so that kids who need advanced care can get it irregardless of income?? Hell YES.... but that is my choice of what to do with my personal income

Food, shelter, water are basic human needs. Should they be denied to people who can't pay for them? I'd say no. Having said that then the next issue is how will they be provided to those who can't pay for them. That's a policy issue.

Health care and medical treatment aren't basic human needs. Without food, water or shelter, survival is perilous, but a lack of health care or medical treatment (one being a subset of the other) doesn't immediately threaten our survival. In the longer term it does because we will get sick and when we get sick we need medical treatment.

No doubt in some societies health care and medical treatment isn't considered a basic human right.

I'm stating that it should be seen as a basic human right and its administration should follow from that, in other words the public policy provisions should be built on the acknowledgement of it being a basic human right.

No... it is a basic personal need... not a human right

BIG difference

As stated... I am all for voluntary donations and help to those in a position of 'need'.... but this is not the job of the government... this is not something where people should be FORCED or something that is an entitlement..

 

[Diuretic]

Points taken and at this stage it's opinion v opinion I think. That's fair enough. I have a different opinion from you and in support of my position I would make the point that society can choose to treat medical care/treatment as a basic human right or it can choose some other status for it, commodity for example. That's only my opinion, not trying to claim it as a fact.

 

[Care4all]

Another day, another bunch of right wing nonsense about healthcare - does anything ever change? America for the wingnuts has become a nation of no can do. We can bomb sovereign nations spending billions, but we cannot do good things for ourselves. Somewhere Americans lost their heart, their soul, and their compassion. Anyone know where to find it?

TheDay.com - Insurers Already Rationing Health Care

Truth-telling and Responsibility in Health Care - Jim Wallis - God’s Politics Blog


"Obviously, people with low or even moderate incomes could not afford such savings rates, and even diligent savings from their low wages would not be enough to pay for either retirement or healthcare." William Greider

Another excuse for midcan to link left wing sites

The federal govt is charged with nation defense.... the federal government is not charged with taking over your personal responsibilities... but nice try

That doesn't justify you stealing my taxes for an UNNECESSARY war in Iraq that had nothing to do with OUR OWN national defense...

BOTTOM LINE, we pay for shit that other citizens seem to want and have NOTHING to do with the constitution or paying for national defense...

We bail out fricking banks in ONE DAY give them what healthcare reform, for the ENTIRE COUNTRY would cost the gvt for 10 years with this reform.

So, your argument, doesn't hold water imho Dave.

 

[DiamondDave]

Another day, another bunch of right wing nonsense about healthcare - does anything ever change? America for the wingnuts has become a nation of no can do. We can bomb sovereign nations spending billions, but we cannot do good things for ourselves. Somewhere Americans lost their heart, their soul, and their compassion. Anyone know where to find it?

TheDay.com - Insurers Already Rationing Health Care

Truth-telling and Responsibility in Health Care - Jim Wallis - God’s Politics Blog


"Obviously, people with low or even moderate incomes could not afford such savings rates, and even diligent savings from their low wages would not be enough to pay for either retirement or healthcare." William Greider

Another excuse for midcan to link left wing sites

The federal govt is charged with nation defense.... the federal government is not charged with taking over your personal responsibilities... but nice try

That doesn't justify you stealing my taxes for an UNNECESSARY war in Iraq that had nothing to do with OUR OWN national defense...

BOTTOM LINE, we pay for shit that other citizens seem to want and have NOTHING to do with the constitution or paying for national defense...

We bail out fricking banks in ONE DAY give them what healthcare reform, for the ENTIRE COUNTRY would cost the gvt for 10 years with this reform.

So, your argument, doesn't hold water imho Dave.

You can think anything is unnecessary... that is your right... but others do have the right to think that repeated violations of cease fire justified actions in Iraq.. and that terrorist attacks, and terrorists based in a country such as Afghanistan justified those actions as well....

The fact it that it was based on national defense, whether you agree with it or not

Bottom line, I am against spending on all things that the government is not charged to do... whether that be handouts to the lazy, or pig fart research, or handouts to other countries, or subsidies, or whatever else... But that just because we HAVE done those things, does not mean we should continue to do such things or expand the scope of doing such things

 

[DiamondDave]

Points taken and at this stage it's opinion v opinion I think. That's fair enough. I have a different opinion from you and in support of my position I would make the point that society can choose to treat medical care/treatment as a basic human right or it can choose some other status for it, commodity for example. That's only my opinion, not trying to claim it as a fact.

No... society does NOT choose.. that is known as the tyranny of the majority.. .50.1% of the populace does not have the right to confiscate from 49.9% of the rest to get what they want in their pockets.. that is exactly WHY we have a constitution

 

[Diuretic]

Points taken and at this stage it's opinion v opinion I think. That's fair enough. I have a different opinion from you and in support of my position I would make the point that society can choose to treat medical care/treatment as a basic human right or it can choose some other status for it, commodity for example. That's only my opinion, not trying to claim it as a fact.

No... society does NOT choose.. that is known as the tyranny of the majority.. .50.1% of the populace does not have the right to confiscate from 49.9% of the rest to get what they want in their pockets.. that is exactly WHY we have a constitution

Society has chosen to make it a basic human right in some countries. It appears that the US doesn't choose to make it a basic human right. So society does choose.

The tyranny of the majority argument is a straw man. As Care pointed out, many US taxpayers were against the Iraq invasion and occupation yet it went ahead, funded by US taxpayers.

If US society, through its legislators, chose to make health care/medical treatment a basic human right then it becomes one. That's not the tyranny of the majority, merely the will of the majority.

Nothing is being taken away from anyone, there is no tyranny unless something currently enjoyed is lost. Making health care/medical treatment a basic human right in US society is adding to the sum total of human rights and also reducing the sum total of human misery in US society. To me that's a good.

 

[DiamondDave]

Points taken and at this stage it's opinion v opinion I think. That's fair enough. I have a different opinion from you and in support of my position I would make the point that society can choose to treat medical care/treatment as a basic human right or it can choose some other status for it, commodity for example. That's only my opinion, not trying to claim it as a fact.

No... society does NOT choose.. that is known as the tyranny of the majority.. .50.1% of the populace does not have the right to confiscate from 49.9% of the rest to get what they want in their pockets.. that is exactly WHY we have a constitution

Society has chosen to make it a basic human right in some countries. It appears that the US doesn't choose to make it a basic human right. So society does choose.

The tyranny of the majority argument is a straw man. As Care pointed out, many US taxpayers were against the Iraq invasion and occupation yet it went ahead, funded by US taxpayers.

If US society, through its legislators, chose to make health care/medical treatment a basic human right then it becomes one. That's not the tyranny of the majority, merely the will of the majority.

Nothing is being taken away from anyone, there is no tyranny unless something currently enjoyed is lost. Making health care/medical treatment a basic human right in US society is adding to the sum total of human rights and also reducing the sum total of human misery in US society. To me that's a good.

And the CONSTITUTION is there to protect against the 'will of the majority'.... it is as simple as that.... 50.01% does not make it constitutional... call it the will of the majority, or the tyranny of the majority.. . it is the same exact thing

Something IS being taken from some to be given to others who do NOT contribute... that you cannot see such a simple fact shows your absolute blindness and indoctrination

As for whether a vocal majority or whatever opposed the war(s) does not take away the charge of the Federal government to act in national defense... it is why we have a commander in chief and not COMMANDERS in chief

 

[Care4all]

the filibuster in the senate is what protects the minority from the mere majority(51%), on controversial issues because it requires 60 votes to bring the bill to cloture, to a vote.

 

[Diuretic]

No... society does NOT choose.. that is known as the tyranny of the majority.. .50.1% of the populace does not have the right to confiscate from 49.9% of the rest to get what they want in their pockets.. that is exactly WHY we have a constitution

Society has chosen to make it a basic human right in some countries. It appears that the US doesn't choose to make it a basic human right. So society does choose.

The tyranny of the majority argument is a straw man. As Care pointed out, many US taxpayers were against the Iraq invasion and occupation yet it went ahead, funded by US taxpayers.

If US society, through its legislators, chose to make health care/medical treatment a basic human right then it becomes one. That's not the tyranny of the majority, merely the will of the majority.

Nothing is being taken away from anyone, there is no tyranny unless something currently enjoyed is lost. Making health care/medical treatment a basic human right in US society is adding to the sum total of human rights and also reducing the sum total of human misery in US society. To me that's a good.

And the CONSTITUTION is there to protect against the 'will of the majority'.... it is as simple as that.... 50.01% does not make it constitutional... call it the will of the majority, or the tyranny of the majority.. . it is the same exact thing

Something IS being taken from some to be given to others who do NOT contribute... that you cannot see such a simple fact shows your absolute blindness and indoctrination

As for whether a vocal majority or whatever opposed the war(s) does not take away the charge of the Federal government to act in national defense... it is why we have a commander in chief and not COMMANDERS in chief

Now come on, you can't validly argue that the will of the majority is a tyranny. Taken to its logical conclusion that means no legislation would ever be passed by the legislature.

As for my blindness and indoctrination, I don't think so. I'm merely arguing that health care/medical treatment should be seen as a basic human right in society. You disagree. No problem.

 

[oreo]